Author Topic: 21 month old crying at BT every night and NW going on for 5 weeks  (Read 1150 times)

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Offline NinNic

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LO has been independent sleeper since about 4 months old. Five weeks ago she started crying when put down at BT and waking at night crying 1-3 times/ night. During difficult times we have always patted her. We try to talk to her and just sit next to her but she still indicates she wants to be patted. For NWs we also pat her back to sleep. This phase is the worst she has been in so far- think it might be 18 month old regression. I don’t want patting to become a prop so that she will still want it for BT when over this phase. Previously it hasn´t become a prop after other phases, teething and illness. It’s just that this phase seems to be going on for long. Shall we continue patting until this phase is over and not worry it becoming a prop?

Her EASY looks like this at mo:
WU between 6:30-7 am
Nap 1:35 (she falls asleep by this time even if put her to bed earlier/later for nap)-3:15 pm as lately she is moody and tired I thought to let her sleep a bit longer than usual 1.5 hrs
BT 8/8:30 pm put to bed around 7:30 pm, for a period she would fall asleep around 8 pm when nap to around 3 pm and 8:30 pm when nap to 3:30 pm latest when seemed very tired

Yesterday I woke her at 3:15 pm and she didn't fall asleep until 8:30 pm, she was tossing and turning constant for over 45 mins (don't know if this is part of phase or what it is.)

I´m trying to get her to sleep by 8 pm so she has 11 hrs instead of 10.5 hrs as it seems she is better rested with 11 hrs night sleep. Tonight she fell asleep 8:07 pm, BT at 7:40 pm instead of 7:30 pm as wanted to try putting to bed a bit later as thought she might not be tired enough at 7:30 pm.

I really appreciate some advice!  :)

Offline trimbler

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Re: 21 month old crying at BT every night and NW going on for 5 weeks
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2016, 20:52:50 pm »
Hi there,

Just my first couple of thoughts, as my DD is the same age as yours :) Bear in mind that you may need to put a cap on that nap, to ensure that she's tired enough to get to sleep early enough to get a long enough night to feel well rested - I know that definitely meant at least 11h for our DS, haven't quite worked it out for our DD, but it sounds like you have :)

Also wondered if there's anything she might be wanting at BT? Ours started making a fuss at BT recently and it turned out that she just wanted a drink of water - being a late talker doesn't help! Is your DD talking enough to express clearly what she might want, or is there still a fair amount of guesswork? She may also be getting a bit more particular about what she wants to happen at BT, do you think there may be some of that going on? Of course we need to be balanced, some things will be non-negotiable, but perhaps there's room for manoeuvre in other areas? What's your BT routine currently? At what point does she get upset?

Lastly - do you already feel that the patting is a prop, or do you think she needs extra comfort from you right now, eg for teething? Have you ever tried wiwo? Yes, she'll be unhappy about it but if you do want to wean the patting and you really don't believe she needs it at the moment (I think they are getting to an age where they can start to play around more and see how far they can push the boundaries ;) ) then it may be worth a try.

How does what I've said tally (or otherwise) with what you're experiencing?



Offline NinNic

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Re: 21 month old crying at BT every night and NW going on for 5 weeks
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2016, 12:45:30 pm »
Hi  :)

Thanks so much for your reply!

Yes nap is hard to figure out. A few months ago she would always wake after around 1.25 hrs (her night was then usually over 11 hrs) then that changed for some reason and had much less night sleep so had to lengthen nap as she was moody after nap to at least 1.5 hrs. Then this phase came and had to even lengthen a bit more specially when night sleep was around 10 hrs. Now that night sleep is around 10.5-11 hrs do you think I should cap her nap to less than 1.5 hrs or maybe let her have 1.5 hrs?

LO is only saying few words still ( we talk 3 languages at home so I guess that also will make her speak later) so it is very hard to figure her out and she gets annoyed when we don't understand her. I do not feel she wants something else then us as she is calling for either mummy or daddy. She used to in beginning of this phase say a word a lot and also have night mares and say it in her sleep. The word means daddy's computer where she sometimes watches some children's program on his lap (he works from home a lot so she likes to do that). We have not introduced TV yet. A lot of times when he is working from home she wants to watch it and if we say no she is not happy about it.

Bedtime routine is change diaper, pyjamas, read/look in book and have her small portion of porridge, brush teeth, from here holding her and saying good night to some of her stuffed animals/toys, lights off, sing one song put to bed. In all takes about 30 mins. In beginning of phase she would always start crying even before put down to bed/ just when put down now I would say it can be when put down or she will start calling for us and crying after 5 mins in bed. During this phase the only night she went down on her own and fell asleep after 10 mins! was when she had fever and was sick.

We find it is difficult to know if she really needs us still. She is going down fine for her nap. If she is ok for about 5 mins before starting getting upset do you think that gives any indication of her not needing us? I do feel she needed the comfort for at least a month, but maybe SA is better now. We tried WI/WO in past and it didn't work, she just gets really upset. I can't see swollen gums yet but she does put her hands in mouth quite a lot and I know it can still bother even if gums not swollen yet.

Do you think she might not be tired enough or OT when put to bed? Its just that I've felt she has been tired and grumpy for some time and let her sleep bit longer for nap so just find it hard to think she is not tired enough for BT. If I aim for 8 pm BT is 7:40 pm too early to put to bed? Normally takes her about 30 mins to fall asleep at BT.

Offline trimbler

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Re: 21 month old crying at BT every night and NW going on for 5 weeks
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2016, 19:13:34 pm »
Personally I'd start by going back to 1.5h nap no matter what, hold that for a few days and see what happens. And probably keep BT at 7:30 initially - see whether the capped nap helps her to settle more quickly.

From what you've said it sounds like she's happy with her BT routine as it is currently? In which case my best guess would be UT. I think you may be in a cycle where she seems tired in the morning from her night not quite being long enough, so you let her nap a bit longer, but then she's UT at BT. Has she always been on the LSN side of things?

When you say wiwo didn't work in the past, what happened? She will get upset with it, if she expects you to pat her (which she clearly does), but if you want to wean the patting (it sounds like you do?) then it could be a good way to show her that she can still trust you to come when she's upset (you go right back into the room when she cries an 'I need you' cry - which of course might be articulated verbally now or might not), but that from now on she's actually going to go to sleep without you in the room. I sometimes find that teething gel can help to give some immediate relief if there's a chance that teething might be an issue, but you don't want to give pain meds. Of course the effect won't last long, but depending on how long it takes her to get to sleep, it may be enough to last her until then, especially if the pain isn't bad enough to actually wake her once she's asleep.



Offline NinNic

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Re: 21 month old crying at BT every night and NW going on for 5 weeks
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2016, 15:26:19 pm »
Yes it makes sense with what you are suggesting with capped 1.5 hr nap. Do I not wake her in morning if cap her nap? Right now she is not sleeping late in morning, but if she would start.

I´ve gone through EASY to see what her sleep has been like and came to this conclusion:

Before 18-18.5 months night sleep around 11.75 hrs nap 1.25-1.5 hrs
18.5-19.5 months night sleep 11.25-11.5 hrs nap 1.25-1.5 hrs
except teething when she would wake earlier in morning and have bit less sleep and sick a bit more
ATM total sleep time around 12.5 hrs though I feel she needs a bit more like she used to
Would you consider these hours of sleep on LSN side? I never thought she was LSN but maybe as you say on LSN side def not on HSN I think.

After around 19.5 months she started waking early in morning sleeping 10-10.5 hrs at night which was too little so started with longer nap in day as she just continued waking early. It would also take longer for her to fall asleep for nap, so eventually started pushing nap as thought with early waking also that might be needed. As you say long nap it might just have messed her night sleep and led to her sleeping later in night and still waking early not being tired enough at BT maybe? Maybe her phase started around 19.5 months or discomfort from teething as her hours of sleep dropped and sleep did not seem enough for her.

From having a 1.5 hr nap she needs about 5 hr A time to bed. I guess this might also show that she is UT at BT after longer nap and trying to get her to sleep with less A time.

I'm thinking during this long phase it just took her longer to settle for nap, but that it didn't really mean she needed a push in nap time. From around 18 months nap was around 1 pm and now 1:30 pm. It was even a bit later when her phase was at its worst. Do you think I should leave nap for 1:30 pm or try bit earlier as she fell asleep earlier for nap today or might this be because she is still tired in morning from not enough night sleep? This am she was grumpy and looked tired.

EASY for past 2 days:
Thu:
Woke her 7:15 am
nap 1.30-3:14 pm woke her
BT 8.07 pm was crying so pat her to sleep
no night wake!

Fri:
WU around 7 am
nap 1.30-2.58 pm
BT 7:46 pm did not cry for first time in sooooo long!

Sat:
WU 6:49 am
nap 1:21-2:46 woke fell asleep again after few mins woke her 2.58 pm

I do think she is ok with her BT routine. She would just get so worked up and upset when did WIWO. We probably did not do it long enough. How exactly should I start wean patting with WIWO? Should I start with patting then just sitting next to her then at door? We have tried sitting next to her many times but she just wants patting. Also how do I go about this with NW if I don't pat her? I think it will take her a long time to resettle with no patting or maybe I'm wrong.

We use teething gel before BT.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2016, 15:29:02 pm by NinNic »

Offline trimbler

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Re: 21 month old crying at BT every night and NW going on for 5 weeks
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2016, 18:28:10 pm »
Tbh I think you know what you're doing with the routine ;) I think I'd be inclined to stick with 1:30 for the nap - are you doing fixed A time or fixed nap? I wouldn't let her sleep in too much in the morning (unless the night had been horrendous) as it sounds like she needs a decent A time in order to nap. Friday looked good :) We're in a very similar place at the moment with our DD, trying to finally get to BST properly before term starts :P whilst working out what length nap and BT she needs, now that she's finally settling reliably for naps again. But I do remember this phase with DS, he definitely reduced his overall sleep needs between 18-24mo. Our approach with him was to push BT out a little when he started having trouble settling again, until the nights started to get less than 11h, at which point we'd shave the nap a bit more and bring BT forward again. Seemed to work ok once we'd found a good initial routine (which we have yet to find for DD :P ). Your DD seems to be on the LSN end of things to me, but that may just be because ours is definitely HSN!

Oh almost forgot - she'll likely have been more tired this morning because of that capped nap, since she was previously using the longer nap to make up for a shorter night. You may find she'll go down a little earlier at BT for a day or two to catch up a bit, but then you may find you can move it back again. With DS (memory's a bit hazy...) I think we pretty much fixed everything at this age - morning WU, nap time, nap length and BT. But if he lost out on a significant amount of sleep, we'd bring BT forward by 15mins for a day or more if necessary, then revert to the usual time. If he'd had a really late night or something then we would let him sleep in a bit, but not on a regular basis.

As for the wiwo, have a read of this and see what you think: Getting back on track using Walk In/Walk Out (WI/WO)



Offline NinNic

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Re: 21 month old crying at BT every night and NW going on for 5 weeks
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2016, 08:42:23 am »
Thanks for your advice!  :)

Did you DD also go through similar phase of SA and NW?

I'm doing fixed nap. This morning she woke 6:30 am, which was 10.5 hrs night sleep. If she continues with less than 11 hrs sleep at night and 1.5 hr nap, is there anything else I can do to make sure she gets her 11 hours at night?

Good to know! When you shave nap a bit how much do you shave off?

Thanks for link to wiwo. Is this also same with NW as at BT?


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Re: 21 month old crying at BT every night and NW going on for 5 weeks
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2016, 19:15:41 pm »
Hi there, sorry for the slow reply, didn't manage to get on here at all yesterday.

There was some SA with DD but a few months ago now I think, I can't quite remember. Nowadays usually if she's upset at BT it's because of a sudden strange, loud noise, or she's UT, or wanted more to drink, or some other reason. We're actually still in the same room as we're too scared to move her in with big brother just yet :P she's a late teether so that will be going on for ages and she does these really loud, high pitched screams which sometimes wake him even through the wall ::) but enough about us :P Yes, we would do wiwo at night too if other potential issues had been ruled out/addressed. But of course for DD it's a bit different as we don't leave the room. I think we did with DS though, certainly others do in the night, just be sure that there's nothing else she needs you for first - sorry I'm sure you don't need me to tell you that :-*

With the routine - if her nights are still too short for her (judge that from her behaviour during the day, especially in the morning), I'd first try moving BT later by 15mins or so. I've often found that if my LOs have been UT at BT they can take aaaaages to get off, and end up with a short night because of that. Pushing BT a bit later has helped mine to settle more quickly, so that they actually ended up getting to sleep earlier than they would have done with an earlier BT, iyswim? If that doesn't make any difference, or not enough difference, and if you can't push BT any later, then try going to 1h15mins nap. You may then need to pull BT a bit earlier again, as she'll be more tired after the shorter nap.



Offline NinNic

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Re: 21 month old crying at BT every night and NW going on for 5 weeks
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2016, 18:39:40 pm »
Hi there and thanks for advice!  :)

It only lasted 2 days for her to fall asleep at BT on her own, then back again with crying and helping her to sleep. I'm quite certain that she is teething though. I've had to help her to settle for nap too lately as she won't fall asleep on her own and I know she is tired. When I put teething gel on she seems to be wanting to put it on where lower molars will be, she has been feeling warmer for some days and also very grumpy specially in morning. Do you think this is all teething or simply not wanting to fall asleep on her own?

I have tried as you suggested with putting to bed a bit later in fact have been doing it for some time- BT at 7:40 pm instead of 7:30 pm, but still she manages to fall asleep around 8:10 pm and sleep for 10.5 hrs. Do you think teething makes her wake earlier in morning?

Last night I could hear her from around 4 am several times whining and crying a bit, thought she would wake up, but maybe she didn't or fell back to sleep.

I don't think it's a good idea to cut down on 1.5 hr nap right now as she seems tired, what do you think? Shall I just leave things as they are and help her to sleep if I really do think it´s teething? Is there really any point in starting wiwo if she is teething?

I guess this teething will go on for some time!

Thanks for all your help! It is truly valuable!  :)

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Re: 21 month old crying at BT every night and NW going on for 5 weeks
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2016, 19:23:49 pm »
Hey there, this age can be so tough with sleep, teething etc :-\ Usually it's the canines they're working on, but mine's about 6mo behind on teething, so has only just got her first set of molars - are these the ones your DD's getting now, or does she already have those? If it's canines, they're quite notorious, I'm afraid. Hard for me to say from a distance how much help she needs from you, but you can certainly give her ibuprofen (and paracetamol), if she's really bothered by teething pain around sleep times then you can give it to her half an hour or so before, so that it's working when she needs it. Sounds like teething is probably at least partially to blame, especially since she's asking for the gel in a specific place. But beware of putting everything down to teething - I remember doing that with DS, thinking it was all teeth when in fact he just needed a significant routine tweak and had actually decreased his overall sleep needs.

You could try putting her down for BT even later in the hope that she'll eventually fall asleep earlier, but if that doesn't really work then it may be that you'll need to cap the nap further, in order to get more night sleep and for her to feel more refreshed. Many of us find that they'll end up sleeping even longer at night than we've shaved off the nap - eg cutting it by 15mins could result in 30mins more night sleep - or even longer. So then they end up getting more sleep overall than before it was capped. Not saying this is the magic answer for them all, just that we spent many months with DS doing just what you're describing, before we were brave enough to cap ;) Btw, totally in the same place with DD right now too :P just not brave enough to push BT enough as I know there have been other issues disrupting sleep for her, but deep down I think I also do just have to be brave... :P

Oh never properly answered the wiwo thing - I'd probably try medicating first and tweaking the routine a bit and see what happens, if you feel she's happier after that and not really needing you then just go for it - yes she will be upset but if you want to wean the patting then you'll need consistency, and as I think you said, she may just get more upset with you there and not patting. Of course, she's old enough now to understand so much more, you can explain to her simply that you're leaving but will come back if she needs you, that you're just in the living room (or wherever) and need to xyz and that she can go to sleep without you, that she's safe etc - whatever explanation you feel would be most appropriate for her.



Offline NinNic

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Re: 21 month old crying at BT every night and NW going on for 5 weeks
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2016, 19:56:00 pm »
Thanks for quick reply!  :)

It's the last set of molars, she has 16 teeth already  :). Yes canines were bad.

I felt those 2 days she fell asleep on her own at BT, that she was different and happier- like she was past that phase she had of SA and development.

I think you might be right that it can be a combo and not only teething, guess I'm just scared of not being certain that it is not only teething. Yes it would be very nice to start with wiwo, just worried it will take ages for her to fall asleep and that it's not only teething. Also when we did to wiwo it was horrible. We did do it for a few days but it didn't get better. How many days should I give it?

It's funny you say that with nap, as when she was doing around 1.25 hrs (for some reason she would always wake after this time for nap for a very long time) she would sleep nights over 11 hrs, but I felt she was grumpy in afternoon after that nap. Do you think I should try still with shorter nap and see?

Today she was tired at BT, so I don't think that she is not tired enough for BT. Then again as you say maybe time to have shorter nap to get her to sleep bit earlier.

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Re: 21 month old crying at BT every night and NW going on for 5 weeks
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2016, 21:17:11 pm »
Hmm it's tough, isn't it? Perhaps with a 1.5h nap, she needs more A in order to settle at BT, but by the time she's had that A it's too much A over the whole day?? I wonder, if there might be any way to help her out of the post nap grumpiness? Some LOs just hate being woken and end up with really short nights and handle that OK, so that's fine if this is her. But from what you've previously said, it sounds like she's not fine with the short nights and could use some more night sleep? When ours have been upset after a capped nap, some of the things that have settled them have been: singing; watching toddler videos on YouTube (eg nursery rhymes); going out for a walk/ride in buggy (this is what DD does every day for school run); having a drink and/or snack.

I'd probably try working a bit on the routine first, before trying wiwo, as you may then find that BT settling gets easier of its own accord. But definitely medicate for the teething pain - wow, 2yo molars already, you'll be done soon :) You can always backtrack on the nap capping if it's obviously not working.



Offline NinNic

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Re: 21 month old crying at BT every night and NW going on for 5 weeks
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2016, 19:06:32 pm »
Hi again and thanks for all advice!  :)

For past 4 days I capped nap to 1.25 hrs. Last 4 days of EASY:

Thu:
WU around 7:10 am
Nap 1:38-3:54 pm
BT put to bed 7:45 pm crying did wiwo fell asleep 20:15

Fri:
WU around 7 am
nap 1:39-2:55 pm
BT put to bed 7:43 pm fell asleep around 8:07 pm

Sat:
WU around 7 am
nap 1:28-2:45 pm
BT put to bed 7:33 pm tossing and turning a lot, started crying 8:15 pm wiwo once fell asleep 8:21 pm

Sun:
WU 7:15 am
nap 1:43-2:57 pm
BT put to bed 7:43 pm fell asleep 8:17 pm

I tried wiwo and it was not that bad! She was listening to what I was saying and became calm, of course I had to do it several times, but it worked!!! I think when we tried it before she was much younger and now she understands much more.

I have noticed that she will still fall asleep past 8 pm, but that might be because she is waking a bit later now in morning, wdyt? I tried to put her down a bit earlier at BT on Saturday, but she didn't fall asleep earlier even with sleeping nap earlier. Do I put her to bed even later or stick with 7:45 pm?

She seems to be happier in am and also ok in pm. She is falling asleep a bit later for nap also (except on Saturday when she was at an indoor playground which was very physical nonstop so think that made her extra tired) might be because she is waking later in morning and sleeping bit longer at night, wdyt?


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Re: 21 month old crying at BT every night and NW going on for 5 weeks
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2016, 19:38:18 pm »
That's a typo on Thursday's nap, right? ;) what I see is that she did her best BT on Friday, when she had a 7am WU that morning and a 7:45pm BT. Same BT Thursday, but morning WU was a bit later, so she hadn't had the same overall A time that day. Earlier BT Saturday, and she messed around much longer. Later WU Sunday and she messed around a bit more than Friday, more like Thursday. I suspect it matters less to her what time her nap is, rather how much total A time she's had in the day, just based on those four days - what do you think?

Well done on the wiwo :D now you know you can use that in the future ;)

You could try waking her in the morning to keep the rest of the day consistent, if you like? Or you may feel happier letting her sleep in a little some days to regulate herself - up to you, really. Just bear in mind what I said above about total A time over the whole day. It would make sense for her to go down for her nap a little later after a better/longer night, I wouldn't worry about that.

Glad she seems happier generally now and better rested :) If that BT gets messier and pushing it a little later makes the night too short, you now know what might work re cutting the nap ;) Perhaps I need to give myself the same talking to now... :P