Nap advice - timings, dummy and shush/pat

[Sunnyday01]

Thanks for the advice - what would you suggest for the serious sleep training?

Part of me thinks we should go with it for a bit longer and then do pu pd?

[creations]

He's too young for the full on PUPD method. This is also advised as a last resort method.  You would use shush/pat (or adapted) but by 'serious' I mean really dedicating yourself to achieving a proper nap rather than a CN, it is something that takes lots of time and effort on your part and doesn't just 'happen' magically by patting.  You would need to be consistent and committed to teaching LO that he is safe and support and that it is okay to fall to sleep and stay asleep in his moses basket or crib.

[Sunnyday01]

Ok that makes sense, he doesn't seem to like shush/pat it makes him more wound up but he does have a dummy for comfort but soits it out after 2 mins if being asleep.

Lots of things to think about abd try I think.

Thank you so much for the advice - sending you a virtual bottke if wine and bix if chics to say thank you

[creations]

It's possible to adapt a shush/pat into a slight rocking with a firm hand. It's what I did with my DS who didn't like to be patted.
In a basket you can jiggle the basket to create a slight rock and reduce reduce to teach him to self settle (same as reducing patting) but that's not possible in a crib which is why a firm hand and a little rocking motion can he used (again you would reduce reduce just like patting). It would recreate something similar to the pram movement but the idea would be not to keep on rocking for ever but to teach him he is safe so he can be happy and confident.
hth

[Sunnyday01]

Ok I will try that thank you. He's going to be moving from his moses basjet in to his cot in the next couple if weejs so I think I'm going to go with it for next few weeks then once he's settked in his cot I'm going to really give the sleep training so sine serious time snd effort. He has a dummy to go to sleep at the moment which I think will end up becoming a prop so want to get rid if that too. I think I'm scared of how much he us goung to cry/scream without it and trying to get him to settle on his is own.

[creations]

You might want to check out the SIDS advice on paci use. I believe they advise against dropping the paci cold turkey if a LO is reliant on it for sleeping as there seems to be some evidence of SIDS risk reduction with paci use.

He may refuse to sleep in the cot in which case the sleep training will likely begin then (you have no choice) rather than after he is settled there.  Mine was a very independent sleeper but still needed a great deal of support when his sleep place was changed, he was more like 9 months at that point though, so it was slightly different circumstances.

[Sunnyday01]

I had seen that about the dummy so may keep it u til 6 months - he doesn't sleep with it in, as soon as he gas 'gone' it's out.

Is it quite normal for a baby to cry as they go to sleep? I'm not really sure what prices I shoukd use. At the moment I just put him in his gro-bag, sing twinkle twinkle, tell him it's tine for a nap, give him a kiss, lay him down and walk away. If he crues I go back to him and shush him and offer him the dummy, once he's quiet I go away again and repeat until he us asleep. Is that right?

[Sunnyday01]

Akso meant to say, I'm going to try walking in the pram on his first nap for next couple of days and see f that makes a difference to our routine as I'm convinced he could go 3.5 hours between feeds but due to waking after a short nap he iften wants a feed at 3 hours for comfort.

[creations]

Is it quite normal for a baby to cry as they go to sleep?

Tracy Hogg called it a "mantra cry" as a self soothing cry which is not only normal but a good sign that baby is trying to get to sleep independently.  The mantra cry sounds different with each baby and it may take you some time to learn how it sounds, confusingly it can also change depending on development and if LO is a bit OT etc (mine sounded very sad with his mantra during our short nap phase which had me confused and darting in to him which he did not want, I was interrupting him falling to sleep).  The main aspect of a mantra cry is that it is repetitive (like a mantra), a rhythmical noise which does not escalate and does not involve tears or the kind of shuddering intake of breath which happens when a baby has been crying a long time.  A mantra might go on for a long time, it takes 20 mins to fall to sleep but if LO is having trouble nodding off could go on longer, but in that time the mantra will remain steady, any escalation in crying means LO needs you immediately.  A mantra can turn into an "I need you" cry if LO gets frustrated or upset that they can't nod off.

If LO is calm and not crying when you put him down and leave the room then all is well. If he cries you return, that's great.  You might hold back for lets say 1 minute to listen very carefully to see if it is a mantra cry or an "I need you cry" if it is the latter you go right away. I need to stress I am not suggesting any form of controlled crying where you purposely leave baby to cry for a length of time before attending to him, only to hold back whilst you try to establish the type of cry.
If he fully calms then yes of course you can leave the room again.

I hope this makes sense.

[Sunnyday01]

Thanks for the advice about how to approach shush pat. Yes I understnad that you mean not to leave him to cry it out, I'm not sure I could do that!

The 5am waking is back again - wondering if it's just a phase? He's going back down but only for an hour so is up at just after 6. It can't be hunger as he had a feed at 3.30 this morning.

[Sunnyday01]

Listened to his cry this morning, def think he's doing a mantra cry but his sounds like he is in pain, thought it escalated a couple if times so offered dummy but wouldn't take it which makes me think he's trying yo settke himself although he was really thrashing about! No tears though.

[Sunnyday01]

Tried W2s and couldn't stir him at all despite trying numerous things, 2 mins later he  was awake!

[Sunnyday01]

I'm at a loss with the naps, he woke up happy and babbling away, as soon as he sees me he smiles and looks ready to get up. I've even left him 20 mins this morning babbling away to see what happened and when I went in to try and resettle him I got the biggest grin.

But 20 mins later he is miserable again - should I try and put him down again? Or wait until his feed which is only about 40 mins away from wake up time and put him down earlier for next nap? It's so fustrating!

[creations]

OK, so I thought you were going to try a pram nap for nap 1 and see if it made a difference, have you have a change of plan on that?  It's ok if you have, I'm just wondering what the plan is right now so I can offer any advice.

How do I address habitual wakings? (wake-to-sleep and other methods)
Can you have a read of the naps option 1 on W2S.  The idea at this age is not to stir LO but to begin soothing and continue right through the transitional period. So you would be shush/patting (or in your case rocking either with firm hand or rocking the basket) *right through* the transition, meaning he would be less likely to wake 2 mins later.

I'm not sure when you last increase the first A time or what length it is right now. He might need an additional 10 mins to help him be tired enough for the W2S to help him transition.

he was really thrashing about!

This can also be part of self settling. For some it may go on too long and they actually disturb themselves.  Others eventually nod off.  If he is UT he may do this longer and eventually give up and need help.
If in doubt you can stay in the room so he is not alone.

[Sunnyday01]

Hi

I was going to do the pram walk but he woke at 6 today and needed to go out about 8 in the pram but I hadnt had a chance to get dressed as DH went to work early today.

First A time is around 2 hours, I'm putting him in Moses basket at about 1h 50 - 1hr 55 and it takes him about 10 minutes to settle. He rest of the days A time is about 1 hr 45 before nap signs are showing. At 15 wo dies that sound about right? He definitely seems more sleepy in the afternoons.

I wonder if the early waking is partly due to bed time, he often has a catnap of 30 mins about 5-5.30ish and then he goes to bed about 7, has a dream feed at 10.30, and a night feed at about 3-3.30. Maybe I shoukd be putting him to bed later?