Author Topic: Nap advice - timings, dummy and shush/pat  (Read 11511 times)

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Offline Sunnyday01

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Re: Nap advice - timings, dummy and shush/pat
« Reply #60 on: May 15, 2016, 06:51:37 am »
I've been doing some observations of LO and noticed that his first A times is now approaching 2.25-2.5 hrs, with the others approaching 2 hours now, he is 16 weeks today so assume that is right.

He is doing well at night, bottle and bed around 7, DF at 10.30 and then has been waking around 4.30 where I give him a small feed, then he wakes again about 5.45 where it takes about 15 mins to settle him and can get another 45 mins out of him if I'm lucky.

Yesterday I needed to take him food shopping with me, so took him as his nap was due so he could get his sleep in the car, anyway I expected him to wake up after 45 minutes like he does in his cot, but he slept all the way in the car, all the way round the supermarket and then all the way home - getting 1 hour 30 mins in total. Although I haven't tried doing the pram walk in the morning to see, this does make me think he could do/needs a long sleep. Also after the nap he was so much happier than he normally is - I guess because he got a proper nap.

However I have a couple of questions, he is on  the 3hr routine still, so if he has a 2.5 hour a time and then a 1.5 hour nap, he will be going 4 hours. Also now he is awake 2 hours, it is messing up his catnap at the end of then ay before bed, as its too close to bed time now, or too close to his precious WU time so he is not tired.

Here is yesterday's routine as an example

6.10 WU
6.45 feed
8.15-9.45 nap
10.00 feed
11.55-12.55 - nap (on walk in buggy, woke up when got in house)
1.10 feed
3.05 -3.40 - nap (in Moses basket)
4.10 feed
Took him for walk at 5.15 for catnap but didn't go to sleep, think it was too early.
No catnap meant he was very tired about 6.30 so put him to bed at 6.45.



Offline Sunnyday01

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Re: Nap advice - timings, dummy and shush/pat
« Reply #61 on: May 16, 2016, 18:25:51 pm »
I'm wondering if he us transitioning from need 3 sleeps to 2 and a catnap?

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Re: Nap advice - timings, dummy and shush/pat
« Reply #62 on: May 17, 2016, 09:16:53 am »
Hi sunny - sorry I don't have time for a proper reply right now but I wanted you to know you have not been forgotten. I've been very busy for a couple of days.  I'll be back either tonight or tomorrow to read your posts fully. x


Offline Sunnyday01

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Re: Nap advice - timings, dummy and shush/pat
« Reply #63 on: May 17, 2016, 14:31:09 pm »
Thanks creations, no rush - the advice and time you give here is amazing considering you have a family!

DH and I have been talking about routine as LO is now 16 weejs and will be 4 months next week and wondering if to move him to 4 hours or stick with the 3 hours. I think if we can sort his sleep the 4hr may slit in to place. But the BW timings for 4 hours don't quite work for me as his first nap would be 9-11 ;assuming he did it) but that would mean it clashed with quite a few groups we do in the mornings and do his current short morning nap currently works well for us. As we can usually be at a group for 10.30ush then. He also wajes up happy after his morning nap so I kind of think we could carry on.

His late morning lunchtime nap works well in terms of the structure of our day, the downside is that I am walking him at the moment and he tends to wake up when I get home, often crying (sometimes I've been walking over an hour) - I think this may mean he wants more sleep and this is also the gap is like to try and get in his cot rather than the buggy so I foukd get some jobs done rather than pounding the streets!! It may make sense here to use sleep training maybe?

Depending on how long he has slept at lunch, a shirt afternoon nap maybe enough to get him through to bed time. I was thinking our routine could work sonething like this

7am - wake up and feed
9am ish - short nap
10am feed
11.30/11.45 - long nap at lunch (2hrs max)
2pm feed
3.45/4 - nap
5 - feed
7 pm feed and bed

It's not structly 3 or 4 hours but may with our life better and still keeps the EAS cycle.

Be I te rested to know your thoughts

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Re: Nap advice - timings, dummy and shush/pat
« Reply #64 on: May 18, 2016, 19:09:11 pm »
The routine you've posted there looks like a good plan so long as he is well rested and will go down at those times and sleep the planned amount of time. It's less than the guidance sleep times (2 long naps plus a CN) but if it works for you and your LO then it's fine :)

So you're looking at a CN, a long nap and a CN.
The sleep training on that long nap is going to need absolute consistency from you.  It is possible and really it shouldn't take too long but I suggest only starting when you feel prepared to stick with it, if you chop and change it drags everything out and makes it harder for both you and LO.

As he clearly likes movement I would do a wind down until calm, beginning with whatever rocking or walking you usually would do, rocking or dancing together as part of wind down is not a problem, it's what you do after that which changes...you stop using the pram for that nap and make sure that every day (for a good period of time, like a week or two) you put him to sleep in his own cot for that lunch time nap.  if when he is unsettled you use a firm hand to give him a rock in the cot. If he is crying you pick him up and fully calm him before putting him back down and continuing to use a firm hand to do small rocking in the cot.  And you keep going.  Be aware, if he is upset and you pick him up you really do need to keep holding until he is fully calm, this is the time when it can go on for a good while and you might be very worried he is going to get OT and then think "oh I'll put him in the pram". I would not put him in the pram. A bit of OT will eventually help him nod off and you want it to be in the cot.
It is ok to rock (in the cot, not in arms) all the way to sleep initially and then reduce in the following days.  It is ok to use W2S to help him transition (go in at 30 mins and begin to rock or prepare for the first hint of movement and begin to rock to help lull him back to sleep before he fully wakes).  If he fully wakes during the nap and will not calm in the cot you will need to pick up and hold (rocking if needed) until he is fully calm and put him back in the cot.  If he resists sleep I would attempt for up to 45 mins or the end of nap time. Even if he does not go back to sleep, staying the bedroom in the dark help to teach him he is supposed to continue sleeping at that time.

hope this helps


Offline Sunnyday01

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Re: Nap advice - timings, dummy and shush/pat
« Reply #65 on: May 18, 2016, 19:21:45 pm »
Thanks very much for your response, and your advice for ge lunch time nap sounds very similar to what I was thinking and that it's going to need persistence. At the moment he also has the dummy to help him settle but I think it's starting to become a prop rather than comfort so I may stop using it at the same time.

I am keen to follow the BW 4hr routine but 2 days a week I go to a baby group at 10.30 for an hour so it wouldn't fit the 9-11 nap time. I don't want to have the routine stop us going out she meeting other mums and babies. The challenge will be getting back without him falling asleep as its about a 15 min walk back.

He is generally awake by 6.15/6.30 am so guess I could adapt the routine and try to get in a slightly longer morning nap too whilst still slowing us to go to the groups

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Re: Nap advice - timings, dummy and shush/pat
« Reply #66 on: May 18, 2016, 19:28:06 pm »
Oh there's plenty of us here who have adapted the routine to fit getting out and about.

Yes I would try for a longer first nap if there is time there.

If he does fall to sleep in the pram I would continue to put him in his cot.  Really it's the only way to teach him to sleep a long nap in there.  I know the temptation is to keep on walking but if you want to get to that independent sleep stage then I'm afraid you need to resist :)


Offline Sunnyday01

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Re: Nap advice - timings, dummy and shush/pat
« Reply #67 on: May 18, 2016, 19:37:23 pm »
It's a shame that the 4hr naps are at such inconvenient times, the morning one especially!

At the moment I often walk for an hour and half each day, and although I like the exercise the main purpose is for him to have a long nap - it's got to stop and I see that moving him in to his cot as a fresh start! I'll be starting next week as will have DH home for support, so I'll let you know how it goes - I'm prepared for tears and I think I just need to keep thinking why I am doing it!

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Re: Nap advice - timings, dummy and shush/pat
« Reply #68 on: May 18, 2016, 20:45:44 pm »
Good Luck.
Remember you need to respond to his crying but you don't need to get emotionally involved in it (easier said than done).  Be calm, breath, think of the Y time you're going to get :)


Offline Sunnyday01

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Re: Nap advice - timings, dummy and shush/pat
« Reply #69 on: May 19, 2016, 08:13:13 am »
Yes I'll be think of the Y time!

A couple of things I've thought about - what kind if quiet activity could we do if he doesn't go back down? Also is there a good time to go out for a walk as I do like him to get a daily dose of fresh air?

The mast few days he keeps waking at 4.50 pretty much on the dot, we just give him the dummy to resettle him, but I'm thinking we should to the same method as naps here to help him learn to self settke?

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Re: Nap advice - timings, dummy and shush/pat
« Reply #70 on: May 19, 2016, 09:14:05 am »
what kind if quiet activity could we do if he doesn't go back down?
If it is supposed to be nap time then I suggest no activity, you stay in the bed room and continue to tell him it is sleep time, shush/pat or adapted rocking as needed, if he is screaming blue murder you might need to reduce the time you attempt to resettle down to say 30 mins, although many do 45 mins.  At the end of that time you have two choices:
1. count the A time from the end of when they nap should have finished even though he has been awake for maybe half his nap time. This helps to establish the routine and habit, the additional level of tiredness helps him fall to sleep at the next nap. (once the habit is establish there is greater flexibility again on following cues and adapting to needs on a daily basis)
or
2. count the A time from when he actually woke up which avoids OT building up.  This will mean some of the A time has been taken up trying to resettle and you might only have an hour left in which to change nappy, feed, a short play (songs, book, toy) and then it will be time for wind down for the next nap again.

is there a good time to go out for a walk as I do like him to get a daily dose of fresh air?
Whilst you are trying to sleep train and establish a routine I would suggest avoiding long walks with him in the pram after a short nap or after a period of disturbed sleep when you've been trying to get him back off to sleep as he is likely to nod off in the pram.  My suggestion would be to go out during A time and if there is a garden or park you can do some floor time on a picnic blanket where he gets fresh air, tummy time, and a little activity such as looking at flowers or singing songs or holding a rattle, rather than walking with him in the pram. It is possible to get fresh air without being rocked in the pram but it might take a bit of creative thinking or planning on your part as you are used to it being a certain way.

If you plan for the first nap to be short then leaving the house directly after that nap might be a good time (I know you plan baby groups after that nap so this might not offer the fresh air but maybe you have a short while of baby groups some days and air others just for now).
Once the routine is established you will be able to go out after that long nap for the A time between naps 2 and 3 it's only that I wouldn't suggest it right now during the sleep training part unless you can just go and sit/play in your own garden perhaps and not walk in the pram or go in the car seat?

The mast few days he keeps waking at 4.50 pretty much on the dot, we just give him the dummy to resettle him, but I'm thinking we should to the same method as naps here to help him learn to self settke?
Personally I'd do things one at a time. Yes you can do it all but this is more tiring for you and the more tired you get the more temptation there may be to put him in the pram for a walk and sleep rather than facing yet another session of shush/pat in a dark room.  Here are my thoughts on the options:
- If you continue with this approach (re-settle with the dummy) for the NW for now you have a somewhat predictable WU time from which to work out the first nap time and the day's routine so you have some predictability and can focus on independent sleep for naps.  You know he is starting the day having had a good night sleep even if that is with a quick re-plug.
or
- If you choose to do it all in one go and drop the dummy re-plug at 4.50 to sleep train you set the morning WU time so that regardless of when he falls back to sleep you wake him at that time. This could in theory mean trying to resettle from 4.50 to 6am and then he sleeps for 1hr and you wake him at 7am.  This route he may be starting the day already tired from having missed night sleep.
It's your choice.  I want to mention the SIDS guidance on dropping the dummy again, so you are aware and consider all aspects for yourself.


Offline Sunnyday01

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Re: Nap advice - timings, dummy and shush/pat
« Reply #71 on: May 19, 2016, 11:58:41 am »
Brilliant - that all makes total sense, and I'm feeling ready to do it even though it is going to be so hard at times I'm sure. We have a garden so can use that for fresh air plus we have a bubble machine so can use that out there!

Thank you so much for your help and advice, I'm sure ill be beach asking more though!

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Re: Nap advice - timings, dummy and shush/pat
« Reply #72 on: May 19, 2016, 12:20:59 pm »
:)
Let us know how you get on.


Offline Sunnyday01

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Re: Nap advice - timings, dummy and shush/pat
« Reply #73 on: May 31, 2016, 05:09:11 am »
Thought id let you know how we are progressing - we are now on 4gr easy and have upped bottles but no matter how much I put in he takes it all, he us quite sick after abd HV thinks it's due to over feeding so now only give him 8oz and uf he looks like ge wants more we give it to him.

Nap wise, we gave firmly established 3 naps, however the morning nap is now only 30 mins despite trying numerous A times and trying to extend it, he us happy and cooing and doesn't want to go back to sleep so for the moment I'm going with it snd wondering if it's developmental.

The lunchtime nap is now in the cot with no walking needed! It can take a while to get him down but every day we've had over an hour, most days resettling has been required though but least it's a start from where we were. The catnap is still the trickiest in terms if timing to ensure it diesnt interfere with bedtime as I'm funding he needs about 2 hours a time before bed now.

We are still struggling with 5am wake ups and it's hard to resettle, iften having to go back in every 30 mins and by 6.15 he usually wants to get up, but I'm guessing with a 7pm bedtime that's about right!!

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Re: Nap advice - timings, dummy and shush/pat
« Reply #74 on: May 31, 2016, 14:18:30 pm »
Hi there,
That's a good update! I know it's all a lot of work for you. Sometimes it's just much trickier than it should be.
I'm afraid I can offer much help, but only support in the process:/

Keep your spirit up ;)