Shh pat and rolling over

[N_Mom_S]

Hi! I have a question re: shhh pat for my almost 5mo son. He just started rolling over and wants to practise in his crib ALL THE TIME. Shhh pat used to work (inconsistently) but lately it's been really difficult due to his movements. The only way I can restrain him is on my shoulder, so this morning I had to do shh pat on my shoulder, accompanied by some squats because he was getting fussy. Should I keep on with shh pat or change the method? I don't want to do PU/PD unless it's really necessary, I tried once and it was quite horrible. Any thoughts?

[michaeljacknnugg]

My baby is similar. I let him roll around and if he cries, I reposition him in his favourite sleeping position and pat. I think he rolls around when he's not ready to sleep yet.

The shhh part I have done for me as we play white noise (from an app) for all sleep times. So he doesn't need to be close.

[jessmum46]

When mine acted that way it was often that they were UT.....I wonder, he's 5 months?  It's a pretty typical time for routine change to start towards the 3-2 nap transition and a bit more A time.  Did you want to post your routine and see if we can help?

[N_Mom_S]

Some of those times I know it was OT because of the A times and 30min naps, the other times I don't know...

I'll post the 'ideal' schedule we had 10 days ago when we managed to get to 3 naps, and then the last three days, which have been a disaster in terms of EASY (I'm very confused with his A times lately):

Old ideal schedule:

WU 8:40
E 9:00
A 1H45
S 10-45-12:15 (1h30) with W2S
E 12:30
A 1h45
S 2:15-3:40 (1h25) extended with shh pat
E 4:00
A 1h55
S 5:55-6:30 (35m)
E 7:30 asleep by 8:15

DF 11:00, E 1:50, E 4:50

That was a great day&night!


These last three days:

WU 7:20? in crib until 8:15
E 8:45-9:15
S 9:15-9:25 he fell asleep at the breast and I woke him up. At 9:45 I tried to put him down but he was super awake and shh pat didn't work. I took him out for another 2h of A time and he was happy.
S 11:20-1:10 (long shhh pat, crying) 1h50
E 1:15
A 2h
S 3:15-4:00 (45m)
E 4:10
A 1h45
S 5:55-6:15 (20m)
E 7:40 asleep by 8:00

E 10:50
E 2:30
WU 4:10 shh pat
E 6:00


Here my husband did CIO for naps because he was frustrated by the shhh pat :

WU 7:30 crib until 8:10
E 8:30
A 2h30
S 10:00-12:10 (2h10)
E 12:30
A 2h20
S 2:50-3-20 (30m)
E 4:10 he fell asleep at the breast at 4:30, until 4:55
S 7:05-7:20
E 8:00 asleep by 9:15

E 11:45, E 1:40, E 4:30, WU 6:00, WU 7:00



Yesterday night was really good after another weird EASY:

WU 7:..? Idk
E 8:30
S 10:05-10:45 (40m)
E 12:10, asleep at the breast between 12:30-12:40
S 2:30 tried shhh pat without luck, I took him out to play
S 3:55-5:10 (1h15, extended with rocking, he was really tired after a long shhh pat with crying)
E 5:15
S 7:00-7:10 (10m just to get him to BT)
E 8:30 asleep by 9:30

W2S 11:15 worked, just two feedings: 1:20 & 5:05, and quick shh pat at 3:00


I'm confused because he seems UT many times I'm going to put him down so I take him out to play, sometimes he falls asleep at the breast way before his normal A time and it looks like the A time is reset, many times he's clearly OT.... But then last night was amazing after those bad naps...

My baby is similar. I let him roll around and if he cries, I reposition him in his favourite sleeping position and pat. I think he rolls around when he's not ready to sleep yet.

The shhh part I have done for me as we play white noise (from an app) for all sleep times. So he doesn't need to be close.

We also play white noise, but the fighting comes when we have to pat, it's really difficult!

[michaeljacknnugg]

I would say almost definitely UT with a 1hr45 A. We are on 3-4 hours!!!

[N_Mom_S]

The 1h45 A time was when he was a bit less than 4 1/2 mo and we had been doing 1h30 until then. But that day with the 1h45 worked perfectly and shhh pat was super fast! Now we're at 2-3h and even almost 4h at some point these past days (he ended up really OT). He'll be 5 mo in a week.

[N_Mom_S]

I should also mention that we're pushing BT to 8:30-9pm because it suits us better, also anywhere from 8am to 9am in the morning would be OK for waking up. I don't know if it'll work because he keeps waking up at 7:30am

[jessmum46]

I think consistency would help you really.....my feeling would be if 7.30 is a realistic wake time for now then try to work a routine that works with that and then push forward when things are a bit more stable.  Pushing bedtime right now I think will probably cause more OT and is going to make it tricky to figure A times.  I would start with a minimum of 2h A, possibly 2h15 (that 1h45 day was most likely a catch up) and consistently put him down at that time after WU.  Keep a log of how well or not he settles, and nap length.  Then post it here after about 3 days and let's see what happens

Oh also - I'm sure you know and I can understand your DHs frustration, but we don't support CIO here at all and that inconsistency may well not have helped your situation.  You really both need to be on board with a method you can commit to even when it is tough, it's not fair on LO to keep changing the rules and may well make it harder for you too   (((hugs))) this age is rubbish for sleep xx

[N_Mom_S]

I called it CIO but it wasn't really, it was like a mix of both. He stayed in the room with him while he cried and increased the time between pattings progressively. I don't know if it worked but it's been a bit easier lately.

We decided to push BT because there's one day a week when I can't start putting him down (at the breast) before 8:30pm, so we thought the same BT every day would avoid him getting OT that specific day, but should we leave it earlier and just survive his OT day as best as we can? Won't it be a bit confusing for him?

Also, I'm really confused about the A time after he falls asleep at the breast for 5 or 10 min. Or not even 5 minutes in the stroller before we come back home, opening and closing his eyes. It has been happening these past days even if I always try to avoid it, but those times he dozed off way before the normal A time so it took me by surprise. I always try to wake him up. And it seems that when I try to put him down after the normal A time, disregarding that mini nap, he's really awake. Does that reset the A time? How do I know how long I should wait after that? He always seems OT when I try to put him down after another A period

[jessmum46]

I wouldn't think he'd do another full A after a 5 minute doze....why not try just 10-15 mins later than you would have done and see if that works?

[N_Mom_S]

It's getting better! I'm trying to be consistent with 2-2:15 A time, and shh pat is easier now. I'm trying to spot a pattern regarding his morning wake up time because it varies so much, but I can't find one 

These are the last 4 days:

WU 9:00
E 9:30
A 2H04
S 11:05-12:40 (1H35)
E 1:15
A 2H
S 2:40-3:30 (50M)
E 4:45
A 2H15
S 5:45-6:10 (25M)
E 8:10 asleep by 8:55

shh pat 11:00, E 1:00, E 4:30, shh pat 6:00



WU 8:00
E 8:45
A 2H
S 10:00-12:25 (2H25)
E 12:45
A 2H30
S 2:55-3:30 (35M)
E 4:10
A 1H45 (he was teething so things got a little out of control here)
S 5:15-5:35 (20M)
E 6:10
A 1H25
S 7:00-7:15 (15M)
E 8:35 asleep by 9:00

DF 11:30, E 2:40, E 7:20



WU 7:20
E 7:20, 9:00 (I fed him again to try to keep his schedule)
A 2H45
S 10:05-11:30 (1H25)
E 12:10
A 2H15
S 1:45-3:30 (1H45)
E 4:25
A 2H
S 5:30- 5:50 (20M)
E 8:20 asleep by 9:20

rocking at 00:00, E 2:40, E 5:10




Another teething day:

WU 8:20
E 9:25
A 2H15
S 10:35-11:30 (55M)
E 12:55
A 1H45
S 1:15-2:00 (45M) he fell asleep at the breast and I let him sleep
S 4:00-4:35 (35M)
E 5:05
A 2H15
S 6:50-7:10 (20M)
E 8:10 asleep by 9:20

E 4:05!!! after that, shh pat every hour until WU 7:40

[N_Mom_S]

Hi! I'm still trying to figure out why the inconsistent WU times (should I open a new post for this?), here are the last 3 days:

WU 7:30
E 9:00
A 2H20
S 9:50-11:45 (1H55)
E 12:15
A 2H
S 1:45-3:45 (2H)
E 3:50
A 2H15
S 6:00-6:35 (35M)
E 7:50 - asleep by 9:15

E 11:25, E 3:15



WU 8:35
E 9:15
A 2H05
S 10:40-12:50 (2H10)
E 1:30
A 2H25
S 3:15-4:35 (1H20)
E 5:15
A 2H10
S 6:45-7:20 (35M)
E 8:25 asleep by 9:00

E 1:30, E 6:50



WU 8:55
E 9:55
A 2H25
S 11:20-13:50 (2H30)
E 2:30
A 2H20
S 4:10-5:00, tried to put him down again, 5:50-6:00
E 6:25
E 8:30 asleep by 9:00

E 11:45, E 3:15, E 6:55 (WU 6:55)

[jessmum46]

You're getting some nice naps in there   I think the variation in WU probably is a mixture of 'normal' WU times and early wakings, which happens for all babies from time to time.  It's just your early wakings aren't actually that early, because you're aiming for a later bedtime.  So you may need to decide what is 'acceptable' for waking up time and not treat anything before that as morning.  So for us, 7pm is bedtime and at that age nothing before 6am was morning, so we'd have stayed in the dark and I would have tried resettling.  For you with a 9pm bedtime that may be you need to try resettling anything before 8am.  Either that, or you wake LO if they sleep past a certain time so you limit the variation in waking. 

[N_Mom_S]

Thank you for your advice! Yes, we're getting good naps (most of them are extended, he still wakes up around the 45min mark)
Lately, he's been waking up at around 8:30-9:00 am so we're very happy about that!! It looks like we successfully moved BT/WU times He still has an early WU sometimes but usually goes back to sleep (and then he usually wakes up late because he stays up for more than an hour sometimes...). We've been having really good nights with only 1 or 2 feedings, but these past few days he has started to wake up more and nothing will make him sleepy except for nursing, so we're up to 3-4 feedings a night again. I thought it could be an early 6-month-growth spur (he's almost 5 1/2) but he doesn't eat a lot, could it be that?

[jessmum46]

If he's not eating much, just using you as a pacifier then probably not . Is he upset when he wakes?

[N_Mom_S]

Sometimes yes, sometimes no 

I think when he wakes up upset he usually eats more so that means he's hungry, but other times (such as the early wakings) he's happy. Yesterday for example, he woke up upset at 00:00 and 2:30 and ate more or less a good quantity, and then woke up at 6:30 quite content and ate less. The day before it was 11:50, 2:30, 4:30, 7:00 and he ate in all of them, but not large quantities. I'm confused!! haha

[jessmum46]

I'd probably not feed at night any more frequently than during the day, so if you do 4 hourly feeds during the day I'd resettle any wakings before 4 hours at night and then feed at the others

[N_Mom_S]

Thanks for your answer! I always try to resettle before feeding unless it's been a really long time, so those times were all times when I couldn't resettle him 

[N_Mom_S]

For example, yesterday he woke up at 11pm (pat), 12pm (pat didn't work so rock), 1am (nurse), 3:20 (pat), 4:20 (pat), 4:30 (nurse).
I don't know if that 'waking up every hour' thing was because he was hungry and didn't properly go into deep sleep because of that, or something else, maybe teething 


Apart from that, I have a question about patting: how can I know if it has become a prop? I try to let him self-soothe when I put him down, but after around 10 minutes (it varies depending on the day) it looks to me as if his mantra cry starts to become a real cry, and as soon as I start patting he stops and stays completely still, falling asleep within seconds. It looks suspicious... hahaha.
And if it is, what should I do? We went from rocking to patting and it feels to me as if the next thing I choose may also become a prop...

[jessmum46]

Patting can become a prop - if he needs it every time and won't settle without then it probably is.  But it should be easy to wean - pat for less time i.e. to less fully asleep, pat lighter, pat slower etc etc until it eventually disappears altogether

How have nights been the last few days?

[N_Mom_S]

Well, I have no good updates because he's been sick so we went a few steps backwards, we even resorted to rocking. Now he's feeling better and we're trying to fix it back, I'll keep you posted! Good advice about the patting, we'll try it once things get back to normal again

[jessmum46]

Is LO all recovered now?  How are you doing?