Author Topic: 10 week old 4s not going well, would love some advice  (Read 2346 times)

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Offline Seansmammy

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10 week old 4s not going well, would love some advice
« on: April 20, 2016, 12:38:06 pm »
 Hi there, this is my first time using the forum and i would b grateful for any help. My beautiful 10 week old little boy was born by emergency section after 3 days of labour, a mix of exhaustion, pain medication etc meant breastfeeding was very difficult to start. I was demand feeding nearly every hour, and there were 2 weeks where he did not put up weight. This is now sorted, he is a really healthy weight but guilt and fear he was hungry meant I missed all other cues and am just recently starting a sleep routine - hence how I ended up at this point!
We have been trying the 4s but my little boy seems to hate the sitting part, he struggles massively against my shoulder, rubbing his nose and making protest cries. My husband has also tried and the same result. Shush- pat dies not seem to be going much better he fights being put on his side and the crying seems to continue.
Last night he woke at 1.30 trying to get himself back to sleep he kept jerking himself awake, I had no idea how to help, the same again at 5.30 and he has been pretty much awake since then. I managed to get him for 2 half hour naps. It feels like he has gotten into a constant cycle of being overtired and then under tired when I put him down if that makes sense?! He is almost constantly yawning as he only has short naps so is still tired when he wakes up.
I am literally weeping here as I write this as I feel like such a terrible failure and am so worried that I'm doing my little boy harm by not helping him sleep.  If anyone has any advice is appreciate it. Is sitting usually a problem? Are there any videos etc that d nonstarter shush pat? Does anyone know where I can start to break the overtired cycle? Thanks so much in advance.

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Re: 10 week old 4s not going well, would love some advice
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2016, 20:09:59 pm »
Hi Seansmammy and congratulations on the birth of your LO :)

I was going to just stop by and welcome you to the forums but now after reading your post I have to say more...

Please please please do not allow yourself to have thoughts of being a failure. You are absolutely NOT a failure! Wow, look how far you have come and what you have been through with a difficult birth, difficult feeding (every hour is utterly exhausting and you gave yourself to him to do this), you have devoted yourself and all your energies to this little being, what more could you possibly have done?
If you feel like having a cry go ahead, as a new mum you are allowed to cry, but no more feelings of failure!

Sleep training takes time, lots of time, and lots of effort, and your LO is still very very young.  Don't worry, you will get there.

I would suggest looking first at how he was eating and sleeping prior to you beginning sleep training, for instance how long did he sleep and where did he sleep?  If he has been used to feeding every hour or so you might need to gently increase the time between his E rather than jumping to 3hrs for a standard EASY routine.  If he has been held for every sleep you might want to make a decision (along with DH) as to whether you want to go all out and go for sleep training at every S time (more effort and energy for you but likely to lead to self soothing more quickly) or if you want to go for one nap per day in the cot for now and work up to the others later (slightly less work for you as you just focus on the one nap but overall likely to take longer to get the entire routine in place with self soothing at every nap).

With regards to the sitting...Tracy said it takes 20 mins to fall to sleep. In the early days with my DS I could set the clock by this, it took exactly 20 mins, I could see the stages she described, the seven mile stare, the nodding.  I discovered he needed a regular focal point for his seven mile stare and if I tried to change that (switch positions) he could not settle, I then realised I was holding him too long and the seven mile stare needed to be in his bed so that he could progress to nodding and falling asleep with his view unchanged.  This also meant if he woke he saw exactly the same view and could return to his stare, nodding and falling back asleep.
Once he was sleeping independently I learned he did not like a long wind down.  He liked to spend only a short time in my arms and then be put in his bed.  At 10 weeks old he had quite a lot to say about where he slept and how long he should be held for. It took me some time to work out his cues, one of them was that he wanted putting down, I kept missing that.

Ask yourself why your LO doesn't like the sitting, what is he used to doing?  If sitting helps relax him for just a minute or two then just do it for a minute or two, if he really hates it then I'd suggest either adapting it to something a little more familiar or skipping it.
Equally with being patted on his side, if there is an adaptation that works for you then do it, many of us adapt the methods to suit our LOs preferences.  For instance would he be happier to be put on his back? You can pat his hip or nappy area.  If he is used to falling to sleep in arms then I'd begin there, shush/pat all the way to sleep then put down asleep and continue to pat until he is in a deep sleep (20 mins).  If he is used to being rocked in arms reduce the rocking and when drowsy put in his bed and continue to rock slightly by using a firm hand on him, even a small movement gives a little rocking. This is what I did as mine did not like patting and later I discovered he had silent reflux which the patting aggravated.

There is lots of support and information here, I hope you will find the forums as useful as I did when I found my way here 5 years ago :)


Offline Seansmammy

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Re: 10 week old 4s not going well, would love some advice
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2016, 20:39:09 pm »
Hi Creations. Thank you so so much for your reply. I feel much better after hearing from you and much less alone. I have been slowly increasing the time between feeds and this seems to be going well. I think your suggestion about tapping on the nappy area is great and I will try that and try to make some adaptions that will suit us. I hadn't really thought about trying the sleep training at just one nap first but maybe that would be the best way to go for us. I have a few things to think about from your suggestions. Again thank you so so much for your reply just writing about it and getting your reply has helped me feel better able to go ahead with the training. Thanks

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Re: 10 week old 4s not going well, would love some advice
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2016, 21:38:45 pm »
You're very welcome :)

There is always support here whether you have specific questions about your routine or you'd like a (virtual) hand to hold whilst you go through a tricky phase.

If you do decide you'd like to 'work' on one nap at a time I suggest you choose which nap and stick to that one.  For instance starting with the first nap of the day is a great place as you know he is likely well rested from his night sleep which can make working out the suitable A time a bit easier. If you choose the first nap then keep it consistent and always attempt to put down and teach him to self sooth for that first nap, don't switch it to nap 2 one day and nap 3 the next.  Babies form habits so you use this to your advantage and he will learn quickly that nap 1 is when he sleeps in his cot whilst nap 2 you might choose to have him out and about in a push chair or at home in a sling.  He will learn these routines that you teach him.
So, yes it is slower to go one nap at a time but it is somewhat easier too.  Whilst he is still little and light you might use a sling to help you get through the rest of the day for instance.  It really depends on how you like to approach things.

Meanwhile - if you'd like to join in the general chat with other mums please feel welcome to join the birth clubs board
Birth Clubs 0-18mths
And post any/all questions to whichever board you feel suitable as and when you have more questions.


Offline Seansmammy

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Re: 10 week old 4s not going well, would love some advice
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2016, 08:37:30 am »
Hi, I'm sorry to keep bothering you and I really appreciate your advice. I thought a lot about what we were doing previously and I realise that I had gotten him into a routine for first nap in the crib usually 1 hour after getting up by a combination of dummy, rubbing his tummy and sitting with him. This would last one and half hours. I had even started thinking of moving on to 2nd nap. Thinking about it now the problem with this started with the 5/5.30 weakening and LO not being able to get back to sleep, I continued starting our day at 7am but at this point he was overtired I think. This is when it got so difficult and I started really trying to implement 4s. Naps r now only 45 mins and the cycle continues throughout the day if I try to put him down. Maybe it's the night weakening that's the real problem that I need to sort out first. Sorry I'm finding this all very confusing.

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Re: 10 week old 4s not going well, would love some advice
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2016, 08:59:10 am »
Hi there, Seansmammy, I totally agree with what creations said and, please, if you're ever feeling low, come and chat to someone on here.  We've all been through it and it isn't always sunshine and roses :)  It sometimes is though ;)

At 10 weeks, he's still very little so don't expect too much of him or yourself.  The average A time for his age is 1 hr 20-30 mins, so you might have too short an A (eyes open to eyes shut) and he just doesn't need more than a 45min nap. Gently lengthen your A time by 10 mins every three days (to a max of 1 hr 20 or so) and see if that helps.

I wanted to say my LO2 around the same age would protest at being held 'too much' at nap time.  Turned out she just wanted to get into the cot and get on with her nap.  She's still the same today, just needs to get on with it, and finds too much intervention overstimulating at sleep time.  So see if your guy would prefer a slightly different wind-down. The heart of BW is listening to your baby, he's squirming to try to tell you something, see if you can work out what it is!
*Anne*, loving mama to a honeybee (2010) and a sweetpea (2012).  BF for 4 proud years.


Offline Seansmammy

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Re: 10 week old 4s not going well, would love some advice
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2016, 09:21:38 am »
Thanks weaver. I'll try lengthening the A time. I think you are right that he just doesn't like being held for that length and just wants to get in the crib. I will try some modifications to see what works for us. Many thanks for your post and your suggestions I really appreciate it

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Re: 10 week old 4s not going well, would love some advice
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2016, 09:52:34 am »
Great advice from Weaver :)
I want to add, sometimes those early wakings are impossible to work out in such a young baby, maybe hunger (depending if he is starting to lengthen his night sleep and instead of waking earlier for a feed it could end up around 5 ish which is then a really hard time to get back to sleep), sometimes it's a change in season (lighter perhaps), or gas, or anything really, sometimes it's just that they are developing and growing.
One thing that I can be, and we would more likely say about an older LO, is that early waking from night sleep can come if the first A time is a bit too short.  As Anne (weaver) has said if you lengthen the first A time (from the WU time not from 7am) that first nap could improve again and it may also help with the WU time.  As you said yourself, if the first A ends up very long then LO becomes OT.

It sounds like you were doing brilliantly until those early wakings started getting in the way. Don't despair though. Sleep training and getting on a good routine takes time and when they are little the routine keeps on changing which barely gives you a chance to get used to it before it changes again. Even the most independent sleepers need help through the changes and for all sorts of other reasons too, so don't take it that you did something wrong, this is just what happens with little babies.  By the way, when I found these forums my LO was 4 months old and I was struggling, I had done similar to you, something had 'gone wrong' and in an attempt to fix it I started doing a long wind down and really follow the book by the letter, it was not what suited DS he just got very frustrated with the long wind down and after a while I worked that out and gave him a super quick wind down.

I'm sorry to keep bothering you and I really appreciate your advice.
You are not a bother at all :) We are all here because we came looking for help. We have all received support here and we like to 'pay it forward' to other mums and dads who could do with a bit of support too.
Really - we love having new members to join the BW community :)

Let us know how you get on over the next few days with that longer A time.


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Re: 10 week old 4s not going well, would love some advice
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2016, 09:56:11 am »
Oh and on the NWs - the times are mention are times I would be expecting to feed overnight.  Around 1 am and 5 am.  do you feed him then? I worked hard at making sure we treated 5am-ish as a night waking and did nothing to create the impression that it was daytime.  It's important to get that message across young!
*Anne*, loving mama to a honeybee (2010) and a sweetpea (2012).  BF for 4 proud years.


Offline Seansmammy

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Re: 10 week old 4s not going well, would love some advice
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2016, 10:33:46 am »
Hi creations and weaver. I almost wept again this time wit relief after reading the last 2 replies. Weaver - 1.30/2am is the first wake up and then 5am ish. I'm so glad I'm not alone! I will do my best to try and make this a definite night feeding and try to encourage more sleep. The idea about lengthening first A time is very interesting as a really know that I was pouncing in at around7.45 for fear of missing the window! Creations I think you are right about the other changes as in the past 2 weeks his bedtime has been moved slowly-ish from almost 11 (due to cluster feeding etc) to 7.30 following a nice bath routine that DS really seems to have responded to. It all makes so much sense now. On another note this mornings nap I changed to putting DS almost straight into crib when I knew he was tired, did shush pat on the nappy area and his seven mile stare was the one chink of light that gets through the black out curtain! I had long realised he loved to stare at this but had assumed it was a visual stimulant and was a hindrance rather than helping him drift off. Thank you both so much I really appreciate the advice. I haven't quite gotten the hang of the posting or the showing appreciation yet but I am so grateful to you both and hope you get this message to say so!

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Re: 10 week old 4s not going well, would love some advice
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2016, 10:42:48 am »
((hugs)) hun! Hope you get to put your feet up a bit when he's asleep. Take care of yourself too!

Really at that age, if they wake at night and it's more than 3 hours since last feed, I would feed first and ask questions later.  The less sleep everyone skips, the better!  We did a dreamfeed around 10.15/50pm and at 10 weeks I would also have expected a 1am(ish) and 5 am(ish) wake up and feed.  Because of the dreamfeed, that 1am WU disappeared and we were left with a 4/5am one, and a nice chunk of sleep in the middle for everyone :)
*Anne*, loving mama to a honeybee (2010) and a sweetpea (2012).  BF for 4 proud years.


Offline Seansmammy

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Re: 10 week old 4s not going well, would love some advice
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2016, 11:35:01 am »
Oh that's us exactly. 1.30-2am ish and then 5amish. Dream feed at 10.30 I think I got confused as when LO was awake til 11 he was feeding loads so was obviously tanked up enough to sleep til 4am and this was his long sleep which has now changed to more appropriate time for a 10 week old!! Thanks a mil. I'm really gonna try to extend the A time before first nap and to make sure the 5am feed is a nighttime one!! Hopefully with time the 1am feed will disappear but v happy for the moment to know we are completely normal. Currently sitting having cup of tea watching to while LO has lovely sleep! Thanks so much😀

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Re: 10 week old 4s not going well, would love some advice
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2016, 13:20:10 pm »
Oh I'm so happy to read your last post that you are having a cup of tea and LO is sleeping :) that's lovely. Treasure every minute of rest you get!

I changed to putting DS almost straight into crib when I knew he was tired, did shush pat on the nappy area and his seven mile stare was the one chink of light that gets through the black out curtain! I had long realised he loved to stare at this but had assumed it was a visual stimulant and was a hindrance rather than helping him drift off.
Isn't it funny how we work things out?  That chink of light is pretty much the perfect visual for a seven mile stare too, strong light/dark contrast which they can see more clearly than other things.  You would have laughed at me when I worked out my LOs, to begin it was a large plant (dark) against a wall (light) which he could see over my shoulder as I sat on the sofa, I thought he could only sleep sitting up but it wasn't it was he needed the view of that plant. Then I moved him to settle near a travel cot (for naps) in the family room and he had to choose another focal for the seven mile stare, our book shelf. Goodness it went on because then I wanted him IN the cot not out of it.  I even printed some black and white geometric patterns to pin to the side of the cot so he could see them from where he lay.  He was younger than your LO at that time and I was fumbling around not really sure what I was doing!

Sounds like you've almost got that first nap cracked, it sounds like he is almost self settling and with the A tweaked he will long nap instead of short nap. So soon you might be able to make a decision about nap 2.
Some people like to make a habitual part of the day where they get out and about to mum and baby groups or to the local park etc.  It might be an idea to look around your area for what's available and then decide if you want a long nap 2 at home or if you'd rather get out and have that nap in the pram on the way to a group etc.  Mine was 12 wks old when we started the groups, it seemed like an effort to get us there but once we were there it felt a bit like time off, some of them even provide a cuppa!

I haven't quite gotten the hang of the posting or the showing appreciation yet but I am so grateful to you both and hope you get this message to say so!
You'll soon get used to it around here and find your way around.  We get alerts to new posts on threads we have posted to - if you click on "show new replies to your posts" which is at the top of the page you will get a list of threads you have posted to if there is a new message there.


Offline Seansmammy

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Re: 10 week old 4s not going well, would love some advice
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2016, 16:42:14 pm »
It really is amazing what makes the difference. No1 mentioned at antenatal class that plants, geometric patterns or chinks of light would become viral pieces of caring for LO's!!
That's really good suggestion about looking at different groups and that this might be best time of day. My breastfeeding group is on that time of day so I'm really glad I won't have to give it up for good sleep training as I had been considering doing it. I'll definitely have a look at other things. It makes a big difference to get out.
I've now set my page to show replies thanks a mil. Thanks again so much for all the advice and just for listening (well virtual listening) I feel a big weight has been lifted and even though I know there will still be tough days I have a few more tools in the motherhood tool belt!

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Re: 10 week old 4s not going well, would love some advice
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2016, 17:13:02 pm »
Great you found the show replies thingy.
By the way, if you see a title in blue underlined it is a link to another thread or a FAQ or another board.  So the blue bit ^^^ up there at reply number 3 you can just click on and it will open the birth club board for you. If you are on a PC or laptop they open up in a new window so you don't lose the thread you are currently reading or posting to either :)


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Re: 10 week old 4s not going well, would love some advice
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2016, 12:02:15 pm »
Just wanted to say thanks and give an update. Lengthening the A time had made a big difference, back to one and half hour sleep in the morning. New adapted shush pat working well. Thanks for the advice.

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Re: 10 week old 4s not going well, would love some advice
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2016, 09:01:33 am »
Wonderful news!!!!  ;D ;D ;D

Thank you for letting us know.  Do feel welcome to post new questions if/when you have them.
And enjoy that nap time - get yourself a cuppa  :D