Help with 2nd nap needed

[choc]

I can't see to get ds2s second nap right, it is always short either 30 or 40 mins.  These are a few of the days we have
had
Wu 7.20
S 10.45 to 12.15
S 3.45 to 4.15
Bt 7

Wu 6.45
S 10.30 to 12
S 3.50 to 4.30

Wu 7
S 10.30 to 12.20
S 3.40/45 to 4.20
Bt 7.20

Wu 6.45
S 10.30 to 12.30
S 3.45 to 4.20
Bt 6.45

These are just a few examples. I have a school run from 3 to 3.30 so 3.40/45 is the earliest I can get him down for second nap. He won't resettle and won't sleep longer than 30 mins in pram.
Any ideas?!

[creations]

Hi
Are you still getting the night wakings as well?
How's his mood in the day? At night? in general?

Thing is from your EAS times above it doesn't look straight off like there is a huge problem, looks like the second nap is short, yes, but the night looks great so if his mood and nights are ok then I'd leave the routine as it is.

[choc]

He is happy all day, His nights are bad, some nights a long waking for 1hr30ish, sometimes a 5am Wu on and off til 7. He wakes crying from the second nap but is ok once I get him up. I was wondering if the short nap was causing OT night wakings.  But maybe it's not that!

[creations]

When he won't re-settle in the pram is it because the pram stops moving or because it's bright outside or what do you think?

If he is waking unhappy from it I would say he does need longer nap at that time, and yes if he still has rough nights then the routine as a whole is the place to look.  An unhappy wake up can in some cases indicate he went to sleep a bit too early, a touch UT and unable to transition into the next sleep cycle. I'm not going to suggest extending the A time though as he is only 7 months and already on quite a long A time, plus because you have the school run so really you need that nap at a 'set' time and not on a flexible A time. So the alternative is to sleep train for that nap.  To 'tell' him he needs to sleep longer and put in some time to encourage that rather than letting him get up.
I'd suggest things like:
- keep the pram moving
- put a cover/shade or one of those pram black out thingies
- when he wakes you need to resettle him, use your usual method such as shush/pat PUPD and put in 30 mins of sleep training (hard as you then have your older child to care for after school, I know, but once you have sleep trained this nap you *should* hopefully get an uninterrupted time with DS1 whilst DS2 naps. Is there someone who can help out with DS1 for a few days (during that transition and resettle period after school) whilst you sleep train DS2?

Hmm...actually I think I might be getting things confused. I just looked at the times again, is the second nap at 3.45 at home in his cot due to him not sleeping in the pram? I was imagining you were napping him in the pram on the way to the school PU but now I see the time is rather late for school PU.

Well, either way I think the nap needs longer and some sleep training.
One other thing I was going to suggest is capping nap 1 a bit earlier (possibly not for ever but in the short term) so that he is good and tired for nap 2 to help with resettling.
I feel once you have him in the habit of nap 2 being at a set time in a set place and for a set length (longer than a CN) your routine overall will be much easier to handle. He can go to bed later after a longer nap and would hopefully sleep better at night too.

[choc]

Yes you're right, because he won't sleep for long in the pram,  even when it's moving and covered, we have to wait until we get home. The first nap has ended at all different times, 11.45,12, 12.15,12.30 and it hasn't seemed to make a difference to nap2s length so not sure capping would be the way to go, but I am happy to sleep train him. The nap is set at 3.45 really after an A time of anywhere between 4 hours and 3hrs 15.
How much longer than  a cn would you suggest? Would an hour be OK?

Yesterday was
Wu 6.15
S 10.30 to 12
S 3.50 to 4.30
Bt 6.50
And didn't  wake til 5.35am.  Didn't go back to sleep though!

I'll Start the sleep training today. Thanks x

[choc]

Another quick question, it has been 2 hours now and he is asleep for nap 1. Is it ok to let him do this or will it reinforce the early morning wakings? He woke at 5.35am this morning and went back down at 10.30. Is that enough of a gap to not make it an extension of his night  sleep?

[choc]

He is sleeping longer! We are currently on 50mins! I have no idea what I am doing now, it has taken me completely by surprise! I may wake him after an hour which will be 5pm. Then 7.30 bed time? Help! Tell me if you think otherwise!

[creations]

Gosh - you're about to do BT - go for it!

[choc]

Just starting now! He woke himself at 50mins from the nap by the way. I hope I've picked the right bedtime!

What do you think about what I was saying with the length of the morning nap?

[creations]

it has been 2 hours now and he is asleep for nap 1

I probably owuldn't let it go over 2hrs on a regular basis, a one off could be illness coming or like you said making up for the lost sleep from the night, if it's illness you'll find out in a few days if it's lost sleep from night you don't want to encourage shorter nights or longer NWs by giving a 2hr+ nap.  I'd make 2hr the max.

Bt 6.50
And didn't  wake til 5.35am.  Didn't go back to sleep though!

So although WU was early you are saying he STTN, yes?  That's great, can you look again at what you did the day before to see if anything was different?
Also how long have his nights been when sleeping through? Mine only did 10.5 hr nights anyway even on a 'perfect' routine with no UT or OT, that's just how he was, I'd like to know if yours might be similar or if he used to do a full 12hr without long NWs?

He is sleeping longer! We are currently on 50mins!

What did you do? Did you resettle or he just did it?  Did he seem happier to go for his nap? Was the A time shorter due to that longer morning nap perhaps?

Without your answers my first hunch is that the first nap may need to come a bit later (avoid EW, reduce second A time) and with a longer nap 2 BT can become later and the 10.5hr night may become solid.  Does this sound/feel like a possibility to you or sound like craziness?  sometimes when someone suggests something you can get a hunch yk? (as you know him best)

Just off to put my own into bed now 

[choc]

Ok I'll cap the nap at 2hrs if not ill etc

The afternoon nap I didn't need to resettle, he just did it. I put him down at 3.45 as normal and then instantly regretted it as he'd slept  2hrs10m in the morning until 12.40. He rolled all round the cot til he fell asleep at 4. So went down ut but then extended his own A time and slept 55 mins.

Yes he slept through to 5.35! I don't think I did anything differently, he has had days the same/similar to that before. He had a 1hr30 am nap which is shortish for him and then a pretty long A of 3hr30 then 40 min nap. This has happened before though and no sttn. Today has been quite different from yesterday so not sure what to expect tonight.
He has sttn for 11 to 11hr30 on the odd occasion, maybe around 4 times. But he has only slept through around 6 times in his life!

I'm not sure if 10hr30 nights are craziness or not! I kind of hope that's not the case!!  But will accept it if it is.  Last time he went to bed at 7.30 he woke at 5 which was 9hr30 night, so I figured putting him down later didn't make him sleep later but I didn't really try it out to be honest. I hate Bt after 7.30, don't want to get up at 6 though either 

A question about pushing first nap later.  It is currently at 10.30 pretty much a set nap. Shall I make it 10.45? And even if he wakes mega early, say 5 30 again, do I stick to it?

[choc]

So we had another sttn, well I heard him wake a couple of times but he settled himself instantly! He woke at 6am after a 7.30 Bt, so 10.5 hours again.  I tried to resettle in cot but gave up at 6 20 and got him up. Do I still push him to normal nap time? Or even push further? Or am I asking for trouble? He handles it well but I know he will be exhausted.

[creations]

Hi, great to hear you had another good night

Well, it's hard to know what to advise when things are already on the change.
If you would normally do a set (ish) nap at 10.30am regardless of WU time then I'd go for that or the slightly extended, 10.45 (me, probably the latter but I'm not there am I, it's easier in just words on a screen yk?).  Then 2hr nap and see how the afternoon goes.

I totally understand not wanting Bt to go later or for the WU to be too early, I know, you need a break from it all, if BT does end up later or WU early though the better news is it isn't going to be for ever.  Chances are you could get to one nap at 12 months so it's only a few months of the later BT or earlier Wu iyswim, then it would switch to EBT and longer nights.

I would try a W2S or resettle on that second nap, perhaps hover near his bed at 30/40 mins so you are ready to jump in if needed and see if you can extend.

[choc]

Ok I will try and be brave and keep up to 10.45 but will at least stick to 10.30!
I think I could do the later bt if he was sttn as then I could go to bed later and that would mean I could spend more time with hubby in evening. If I put him down at 8pm and he isn't sttn then I need to go to bed at 9pm which doesn't give us much of an evening together.
As it's the weekend I think we may be out for nap 2 today as ds1 needs to get out. So it might be a 30 min pram nap. Sometimes I just have to let it go as ds1 and dh tell me off for not wanting to do things on weekends due to naps!

[choc]

He was so so tired this morning, he tried to fall asleep on my lap which is unheard of! I put down at 10.35 amd he was asleep at 10.40 so a slightly longer A time. We are coming up to the 2 hour mark and I will wake him. He will probably still be tired though after being awake since 6am. Will it help to encourage him to sleep later in the morning though?