Help with 2nd nap needed

[choc]

Ok, I'll aim for 11!
He hasn't really done a 4hr A before, not on purpose anyway!  But I'll give it a go and  see how he does. We would ideally like a Bt no later than 7.30, but I would do 8 if it meant he slept in later. However when we have done a 7.30 Bt it doesn't seem to lead to later Wu. It's been a mixed bag Really, sometimes a better Wu, sometimes not, sometimes a nw then a better Wu. So I'm not sure really.

[creations]

If you look back at 29th April posts (# 4 and 5) he had 4hr first A and napped fine. You also said the afternoon nap was kind of set and anything to 4hr A passed before that set nap time...and the next post he is awake 5.30 ish to 10.30 ish making a huge 5hr A.
I don't want to guide you in the wrong direction and perhaps I'm not being any help, only looking at things that have happened before and thinking now you got a better Wu time today how can we try to keep things moving in the right direction.

I will be gutted if what he needs is a dramatically shorter A time and I am guided you down the wrong path here.

[choc]

Ah yes I see what you mean with the 4 hours A! I just didn't really think of them because I didn't do them on purpose iyswim!!
We won't know if he needs shorter As unless we try longer ones right? To be honest he is going to have to do longer ones because shorter ones don't fit in well with the school run! They always seem to end up with second nap falling around 2 to 3pm.
With regards to later bt, if I stick with 7 30 and Wu starts to get later (will it take a few days to happen or should it be straight away?) then I could start moving towards 8? If 7.30 doesn't help Wu then I could stick with it or go earlier? Wdyt?

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Honestly if it was me I'd see if he could do a longer second nap (just dont' cap) for one day and then go right to a later BT. sorry I know you dot' want 8pm, I just know I was trapped with 5/5.30am WUs because I never got BT later, mine would be begging for his BT and I just feel now if I had extended just one (or a few days) of naps to get a later BT things could really have been different for us.
If he is not going to do longer than 10hr 30 night or 11hr night then it's either later BT or earlier WU.
So, long nap if he will so that the last A is not too long, later BT and then almost set the routine to make sure it fits with school.  meaning that the second nap can be a CN but for a day or so just see if you can move the day on later by giving a longer nap if he'll take it.

Sorry, I may be of no help at all

[choc]

You are helping! I see the theory and I will try it at 8 pm then. If he still wake early then I will feed and hopefully he'll drop back off to keep day on track? Is that right?
I don't understand though what you mean about getting  a longer nap in pm and then going back to a catnap? If he does 11 til 1 today, then 4.30 to 5.15, could I not do an 8pm Bt then? Sorry if I'm being thick!  X

[choc]

So naps went wrong yesterday but had a great night! This is how yesterday ended up looking
Wu 7.10
S 11 to 12.10 pushed him too far maybe?
S 3.20/3.30 not sure, dropped off in pushchair til 4
Bt 7, asleep at 7.10
Wu 5am for a min then dropped back off
Wu 6.10

So 11 hours sleep,  Yay! I'm pretty happy!
Now the question of what to go for today!

[creations]

I see the theory and I will try it at 8 pm then. If he still wake early then I will feed and hopefully he'll drop back off to keep day on track? Is that right?

Yes that's my thought.

I don't understand though what you mean about getting  a longer nap in pm and then going back to a catnap? If he does 11 til 1 today, then 4.30 to 5.15, could I not do an 8pm Bt then? Sorry if I'm being thick!

No you are not being thick.  What I mean is if other things happen such as you can't resettle in the morning (or feed and resettle, yk at 5 ish) to get a later WU so the day starts much earlier. or if the morning nap ended up being only 1hr 30, or if it ended up being at 9am on the school run instead of later...so anything that throws the day off and would end up in an earlier BT. So if any of that happens you can try for a longer pm nap (ie not cap it, see if he can do longer instead for that day, if you look at the times on that day you might even be able to extend the A a little bit to prompt a longer nap rather than a shorter one) to help you get through to BT. The idea is to keep that BT that bit later so that his 10-11hr night doesn't start too early.

Well, gosh, I have no idea what to suggest after seeing yesterdays wrong naps and great night!!  Maybe the feeding and resettling at 5am for a few days has had an effect??  Maybe he just doesn't need much day sleep?? So 1hr 10 ish and 30-40 mins and he manages to do a full night with no OT waking.  If he could do that every day that would be great hey?  I suspect it's a one off though.
Hmm... if you push him to 11am it's 5hr A time which is very long.
And now i'm looking at the time thinking you maybe already have him down for a nap now at 10am for a 4hr A time.

[choc]

Ah that makes total sense now thanks!

I am going to put him down at 10 45 which is 4hr45 A. No idea if that's the right thing but as you say the later Wu could be from resettling after the 5 am feed but   could also be from having a sort of set nap at around this time so thought I would stick with it! Hope it turns out Ok!

I also think last night was a one off!
Just want to say thanks for all your time that you are giving me, I really appreciate it. I'll let you know what happens with naps today. Fingers crossed I haven't ruined this morning nap.

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I am going to put him down at 10 45 which is 4hr45 A.

FWIW this is also what I would do. It is quite hard to say to someone "give your 7 month old a 4hr 45 A time" as it seems so long but I agree, the set nap time (well almost set) is habitual and as good a time as any to give nap a go.
Good luck and I hope it works out.

Did you feed at 5am this morning or did he literally just wake then go back to sleep?

[choc]

Just woke for a min or 2, I was about to get up and feed and all went quiet! Back to sleep til 6.10 with no intervention from me.
Good to know you would have done the same x

[choc]

I'm back and things are still not good.  the problem is thatthat he is permanently tired. We are getting less than 10 hours sleep due to an hour long nw and 6am start. I keep him up til 10 in the morning and that is a struggle. He sleeps 2 hours with a few ot noises. He is miserable all day and falls asleep in seconds when in the pushchair or car. Here are the last 2 days

Wu 6.10 to 6.30 not sure!
18th
Oob 6.40
S 9.50 to 11.30
S 2.20 in car, transfered to cot til 3.10
Bt 7
Wu 3 to 4
Wu 6 10

19th
Wu 6. 10
S 10 to 12.15
S 3.50 to 4.30
Bt 7.30
Wu 4 to 4.45
Wu 6.10 to 6.30 on and off

20th
Oob 6.30
S 10 to 12 Wu at 40 mins I resettled
S 2.45 in pushchair after less than 3 hours A! Only been walking 10 mins! Thats where we are up to now, he will only sleep 30 min in the pushchair. 
I should say that he is teething at the moment too.
What can I do?

[creations]

Oh dear
I thought those NWs had stopped. When did they start again?

Have you tried meds before BT or a dream-meds for the teething?

Do you feel an earlier first nap may help?

[choc]

I thought they had finished too. They have been for the last 2 nights although to be honest he has been mega tired even before they popped up again.
I have not ever done a dream med, would he not splutter and choke?!
To be honest with a earlier first nap, I did try a week or so ago. But to fit in 2nd nap to finsh before school run I had to cap 9.30 to 10 which made him more OT! I can't just let him sleep as long as he wants at 9.30 as nap 2 would likely fall in the middle of the school run.
I feel like I can't win. Maybe the nws are teething and will stop soon. I'll just have to put up with OT til then?

[creations]

Oh dear, I'm sorry. there must be a way thorugh this but it's so hard to see.

With the dream meds, if you use a syringe for paracetamol you can tell him whilst he is sleeping "I'm going to give you medicine" and just put it to his lips and see what happens, you can push the syringe in his mouth a little if he doesn't open up and only push out a tiny bit. Mine kind of half woke and took the meds.

Actually this has made me think...some times a W2S at your BT can help shift NWs.  Maybe worth a try? a light nudge or stroke just to kick start a new sleep cycle.

[choc]

Ok I will try both of those things, thank you. I feel like I just need a bit of consistency to the afternoons to get bed time the same time for a week or so. I think that would help me see a pattern with nws and Wu times. But everytime I leave the house in the afternoon he falls asleep so Bt ends up being different every night. He is starting nursery in 2 weeks so I'm sure it will be all change again then anyway!