12 week old sleep expectations

[shingyeewong]

My 12 week old son seems to be a very light sleeper and I'm certain he is overtired.  How many naps should he be getting and how many hours of napping?  He tends to nap about 4 times but only for 30-45 min at a time and sometimes one of the naps will last 1.5-2 hours.  Also, how many hours through the night should we expect him to sleep?  One time he gave us 6 hours but it was in our bed.  Since we have moved him out of our bed into a bassinet he hasn't given us more than 4 hours in a row.  Any thoughts or advice would be welcomed as we are desperate for more sleep at night and rest during the day.

[becj86]

Actually, that sounds pretty normal to me.

Here is some info: Typical Amounts of Day and Night Sleep

How long is he awake for before going for a nap? At this age, 45min naps can be developmental but given he is sleeping longer naps, he *can* do it, so I think if you get your awake time (from when he wakes to when he falls asleep) about 1.5hr, that may help to get more consistent naps. Can you post what your day looks like? eg.
7 - wake, feed
8:30 - nap
9 - wake
etc...

[shingyeewong]

Thanks for the info!  Last night he miraculously went from 8-3 without eating and around 9:30 - 3 sleeping!  I'm hoping he keeps this up but am struggling with implementing a regular schedule like the EASY as he seems all over the place.  Also, does it matter where he is sleeping?  He takes naps on us or in a swing or car seat right now and we rock him a long time at night before putting him down in the bassinet next to us. I.e last night he was rocked from 8:30-11:30.  Would really love any help to get his schedule more regular and his sleeping longer for naps and at night!

Day 1:
6:00am Eat
6:30 - 8: 40 sleep (combination of trying to put him down, on us, and then in the car seat because we had to leave)
9:00- 9:20 Eat
9:30 - 10:00 Sleep
10:00-11:00 Awake
11:00 - 11:20 Eat
11:20 - 12:15 Awake
12:15 - 1:00 Sleep
1:20 - 1:40 Eat
1:40 - 2:10 Awake
2:10 - 5:00 Sleep
5:00 - 5:20 Eat
5:20 - 6:15 Awake
6:15 - 6:20 Eat
6: 50 - 7:00 Eat
7:35 - 7:55 Sleep
7:55 - 8:20 Eat
8: 30 - 12:20 sleep
12:20 - 12:30 Eat
12:30 - 2:30 Sleep
2:30 - 2:45 Eat
2:45 - 6:00 Sleep
6:00 - 6:15 Eat
6:15 - 7:10 Sleep
7:10 awake
 
Day 2 & 3:
7:00 - 7: am awake
7: 45 - 8:00 Feed
8:00  - 8:30 Sleep
8: 30 - 9:15 awake
9:15 - 9:45 Eat
9:45 - 12:45 Sleep (fell asleep eating)
1:00 - 1:20 Eat
1: 20 - 2:00 Awake
2:15 - 3:15 Sleep
3:15 - 3:55 Awake
3:55 - 4: 20 Eat
4:20 - 6:00 Awake
6:00 - 7:00 Sleep
7:00 - 7:20 Awake & Eat
7: 20 - 9:00 Sleep
9:00- 9:20 Eat
9:20 - 11:00 Sleep
11:00-11:20 Eat
11:20 - 1:30 Sleep
1:30 - 1:50 Eat
1:50 - 5:00 Sleep
5:00 - 5:20 Eat
5:20 - 6:30 Sleep
6:30 - 6:50 Eat
6: 50 - 7: 50 Sleep
7: 50 - 8: 50 Awake
8:50 - 9:35 Sleep
9: 45 - 10:10 Eat
10:10 - 11:00 Awake
11:00 - 12:30 Sleep
12:35 - 1:00 Eat
1:00 - 2:00 Awake
2:00 - 2:30 Sleep
2: 30 - 3:00 Awake
3:10 - 3:30 Eat
3: 45 - 5:00 Sleep
5:00 - 5:20 Eat
5: 20 - 6:15 Awake
6:215 - 6:45 Sleep
7:00- 7:20 Eat
7: 20 - 8:00 drowsy
8:00 - 8: 20 Eat
8:20 - 9:30 Drowsy (rocked)
9:30 - 3:00 Sleep (9:30 - 11:30 on dad and then 11:30 - 3 in bassinet)
3:00- 3:20 Feed
3:20 - 5:00 Sleep
5:00 - 7:45 Sleep (in bed)
7:45 - 8:00 Eat
8:00 - 8:45 Awake

[becj86]

Ok, so he's got really varying A times there. I think if you work on a routine that looks a little bit like this, things might get a bit easier (shift it all forward/backward based on wakeup time)

7 - wakeup, feed
8:30 - nap
10 - wakeup, feed
11:30 - nap
1 - wakeup, feed
2:30 - nap
4 - wakeup, feed
5:30 - nap (45min)
7 - asleep in bed for the night.

Basic aims here:
1. 12hr day / 12hr night (feeds are as dark and quiet as possible at night, back to sleep asap)
2. 1.5hr awake (from when he wakes up to when he goes back to sleep, includes feeding time)

General rules of thumb for nap lengths:
20min - overstimulation / pain
30min - overtired
40-45min - undertired
>1.5hr - ideal

WRT location of sleeps - Its good to get the night sleep in the crib, in my opinion. I think location of naps is not AS important but one nap in the cot each day is good practise at this stage. Other naps can be on you or out and about if LO will sleep, to make sure he's getting enough sleep and get an idea of how flexible LO is with sleep locations.

Once he's getting more consistent sleep during the day, the nights should get a bit easier.

[shingyeewong]

Thank you for the schedule.  We will work on it more.  Sadly yesterday my LO didn't give me a 9:30-3 type stretch .  I took the baby type quiz and think I have a touchy baby some textbook but mostly touchy. It seems anything will throw him off and he has trouble going to sleep.  Any suggestions on how to manage that when it comes to getting him to sleep for naps or the night?

[becj86]

Having a consistent routine of eat, activity, wind-down, sleep will help - just so he knows what's coming next. As he learns what's happening, he will start to feel more comfortable. With a touchy, I think its important to catch his sleep window, so sticking to your 1.5hr A time and noting what happens will help us narrow that down better. Its really normal to have issues getting LO to sleep and stay asleep at this age. If he's feeding every 3hr during the day then feeding every 3hr through the night is reasonable - you may get a longer stretch but you might not.

Here's some information that might be useful:
What does a good wind down consist of (Includes 4S ritual)
Shush-pat - How to

[shingyeewong]

We are trying the shh-pat to get our LO to sleep in his crib on his own.  It seems to me that it turns into the pick up and put down method... And he's really over tired now which is throwing off the daytime easy schedule.  Would really love help getting my little one on a good sleep schedule and sleeping on his own as I go back to work in 3 weeks.

[becj86]

Can you post a day in EAS format so we can take a look and give you some pointers? Its hard to give advice with no information

[shingyeewong]

Sorry about that.  Here is his schedule from the last two days.  I've been trying hard to follow the schedule but  I think i'm missing his window and he has seemed to have varying wake up times.  Also i think I'm miss interpreting when he's fussy what he wants.  He's horribly hard to keep asleep or get to sleep (especially at night and he's only napping in the car seat and in a carrier with a paci and at night we rock him until he is very asleep before putting him in a bassinet / rock and play.  At night we are trying the routine of going upstairs at 6:30, changing him, feeding him and rocking him.  I feel like i get thrown off when he short naps of what to do next.  He seems very touchy with sleep. At this point I think he's really over tired .

We would really like him to sleep independently in a crib and room. Would love any help.

day 1:
7:45 awake
8:05 eat
8:20 awake
9:00 sleep
9:45 awake
10:50 feed
11:15 sleep
11:45 awake
12:35 sleep
1:50 awake
2:00 feed
2:20 awake
3:35 sleep
4:30 awake
4:30 eat
5:40 sleep
6:20 eat - head upstairs for the night
6:30 awake
7:00 eat - extremely fussy until asleep
8:30 sleep - rocked until very asleep
1:20 eat
1:40 sleep
3:45 eat
4:00 sleep
5:45 eat
6:00 sleep

Day 2:
6:45 wake & eat
7:05 awake
8:15 sleep - woke around 8:45 and rocked back to sleep all in car seat
10:05 eat
10:20 awake
11:50 sleep
12:45 awake
1:00 eat
1:10 awake
2:25 sleep
3:15 awake
4:00 - eat - tried a bottle but only ate an ounce and fussed
5:00 eat
5:15 awake
6:05 sleep
6:25 awake
6:40 feed - upstairs
tried the shhh pat and he cried a lot so turned into pick up put down it seemed
9:40 feed - took back to room
10:00 sleep on us and the put down
3:20 eat
3:45 sleep in bed with us
7:00 awake
7:15 eat



 

[becj86]

7:45 awake8:05 eat8:20 awake9:00 sleep9:45 awake

Here, he was awake for 1:15 and then you got a 45min undertired nap.

9:45 awake10:50 feed11:15 sleep11:45 awake

Here, he was awake for 1:30 after a short nap then you got a 30min overtired nap.

11:45 awake12:35 sleep1:50 awake

Here he was awake for 50min after two short naps and he napped 1:15. This tells us two things - he needs to reduce his A time a little bit after a short nap and he *can* sleep longer than 45min, so he can make it through from one sleep cycle to another.

5:40 sleep6:20 eat - head upstairs for the night6:30 awake7:00 eat - extremely fussy until asleep8:30 sleep - rocked until very asleep

Here, he had a 40min nap and woke at 6:20 - cannot be expected to sleep again 40min later at 7am, so here, you're rocking him while he's not tired (hence he's fussy, saying mum! I don't want to sleep yet) then he got overtired and struggled to get to sleep.

8:30 sleep - rocked until very asleep1:20 eat

This is a good long stretch

6:45 wake & eat7:05 awake8:15 sleep - woke around 8:45 and rocked back to sleep all in car seat10:05 eat10:20 awake11:50 sleep12:45 awake1:00 eat1:10 awake2:25 sleep3:15 awake

So the first nap - its pretty normal to get a 30min waking that you can resettle at this age. I think if you stick with 1.5hr for the first A time, he will soon sleep fine for that nap by the looks of it. The second and third naps look to have been undertired naps after 1:45 and 1:40 respectively - How was he when he woke from those naps? Did you attempt resettling?  Do you have white noise that turns off after 45min?

I think you just need to focus on getting your A times right and do shush/pat and slowly reduce the assistance you're giving him to fall asleep.

[shingyeewong]

Thank you this is very helpful.  We seem to be making progress on the longer naps but he does seem to take a long time and a lot of help to transition between sleep cycles.  I feel like we are somewhat starting to get a hang of the first two naps but the third, cat nap, and bedtime are still quite confusing and a struggle as well as consistency on when the day starts and when bedtime is.  Some questions I have are:

1.) I'm a bit confused of when he should have his cat nap before bedtime and when his bedtime should be. Any insight would be helpful.
2.) What do I do about his varying wake up times?  Will this continue to happen or will he end up having a consistent wake-up time and in turn bed time?  I do kind of need a consistent time because of returning to work - do you have a suggestion based on the schedules you have seen?
3.) When you mention slowly removing the support/ props to help him with sleep-  would you suggest doing so once we have established a strong schedule or simultaneously? 

Here is what the most recent 2 days have looked like. 

7:00am awake
7:15 eat
7:30 awake
8:25 sleep (woke at 9:05 rocked back to sleep)
10:25 eat
10:40 awake
12:05pm sleep
1:25 awake
1:30 eat
1:45 awake
2:55 sleep
4:25 eat
4:40 awake
5:45 sleep (this is where I started to get confused of when then to put him to bed and when his next feed should be)
6:10 awake
6:35 eat
7:30 fell asleep but woke right back up in 5 min
7:50 sleep
10:40 eat
11:00 sleep
4:20am eat


7:45 eat
8:00 awake
9:15 sleep (starting 9:45 fussy sleeping while rocked and soothed)
10:45 eat
11:05 awake
12:15 sleep (fussy between 12:45 - 1:45 sleeping / semi awake)
2:30 eat
2:45 awake
3:35 sleep (he was quite fussy and nothing seemed to be making him happy so I put him in the carrier to sleep despite it not being a 1.5 hour awake time)
4:15 awake
5:15 eat
5:30 awake
6:15 attempted to sleep - very light sleep/ drowsy
6:40 awake
7:15 feed (upstairs around 7:00 for routine)
8:05 sleep

[becj86]

I think you just have to stick to 1.5hr A for a few days consistently before you can know what (if anything) to tweak. Yes, I think its reasonable at this age to just get the routine sorted, then work on reducing the assistance (eg. from patting to hand rubbing back to hand resting lightly on back to less pressure to standing there to leaving once he's put down)

WRT WU times - sometimes these stabilise once a routine is more 'set'. Sometimes you can just wake him at your ideal WU time each day and hope he gets the message Generally I'd suggest not to wake unless you have to.

2:55 sleep4:25 eat4:40 awake5:45 sleep (this is where I started to get confused of when then to put him to bed and when his next feed should be)6:10 awake6:35 eat7:30 fell asleep but woke right back up in 5 min

You could just do 6pm bedtime here, though that's not really in line with expecting 7am WU if that's what you're wanting to aim for. Otherwise, a short UT nap as you did is fine but don't go to 1.5hr A time after the short nap, BT could have been at 7 or 7:15  and that may have avoided the OT settling issues at BT though I note your nights are improving now you've some better days.

[shingyeewong]

Thank you very much for all the help.  We were making progress but it seems that we will take two steps forward and then three steps back.  We were getting towards establishing a 3 hour easy and he was giving us about 5-6 hours at night.  Then he had 3-4 nights were he was waking up every 2 hours .  Then we went back to the 3 hour easy and I was trying to extend it to 3:15 or 3:30 since he is going on 15 weeks now.  He was doing well again only waking one time at night and then last night it was every 2-3 hours again .  Here is an example of the last two days.  Any thought to help with working out the nights and getting his days more predictable would be appreciated!

6:00 wake/eat
7:40 sleep
9:15 wake/eat
11:05 sleep
11:45 awake
12:15 eat
1:20 sleep
1:45 awake
3:00 sleep
3:45 eat
6:30 eat
6:45 sleep
8:30 eat
8:45 sleep
2:40 eat
3:00 sleep


6:30 wake/eat
8:00 sleep
9:20 awake
9:30 eat
11:10 sleep
11:40 awake
11:55 eat (he was fussing and seemed hungry so i tried to see if feeding him would calm him down even though it was less than 2 hours)
1:00 sleep
2:10 awake
2:45 sleep
3:30 eat
5:30 eat (again he was fussing and seemed hungry)
6:00 went upstairs for bed and fed some
6:45 sleep
7:30 eat
7:45 sleep
10:00 eat
10:20 sleep
1:20 eat
1:40 sleep
3:30 eat
3:50 sleep
6:15 awake
6:30 eat

[becj86]

Definitely looks like he needs an A time increase - average A time at 4 months is 2hr, so increasing in 10-15min increments every few days should start to see longer naps.