Help with 4.5 mo old stretching A time

[Mjh2mom]

Lo is 20 weeks old and I'm afraid I've got him stuck in an UT/OT cycle by the end of the day 
In fairness he only seemed able to handle a 1hr A time until recent.  We'd have some accidental 2hr wt (dr appt etc) but always resulted in OT and waking crying. I've added some A time but I haven't been consistent about it, as I would back off or 2nd guess myself if a longer nap didn't ensue. (I now know this can take a bit). Naps had lengthened for a few weeks but are now short again, he's was fighting me at nap time and playing/squealing for a long time before finally crashing (then OT).

The past week he isn't fighting me for naps and goes to sleep within 10min but is taking 35min naps and waking happy. I thought since he was falling asleep fairly easily that it meant he wasn't UT but from reading on here I see that's not true.

I know he needs more A time to consolidate sleep again and get to 3 naps (some days we are at 4 or 5  ) any tips on how to do this correctly? I also now know, OT is going to be part of this (I was so afraid of OT that I kept dropping A time down)

I think my first A time is where I need to focus as that short nap is what's causing a downward spiral throughout the day.

3/4 EASY
7am wake
7/7:30 bedtime but varies based on last nap and now OT he is.
We still get quite a few NW but he is working on self soothing and just cut 2 teeth (early teether!) also hoping the day time schedule/naps getting better will help.

Thank you so much!!

[Mjh2mom]

My specific questions are these:
Where do I start with A time for first nap? We've been so all over the board but are also so far from where we "should be". I tried putting him down after 1hr25 min today and he pretty much instantly turned his head to sleep but then tossed and turned for 25 min before finally stilling into a sleep then only slept 25 more minutes! He didn't cry was quiet while stirring. And wome happy and kicking then starts fussing. Should I of bumped up even closer to 2hr?!
I feel like naps are getting shorter and worse and worsening the problem. I had to do 5 naps to get is throuhj the day yesterday. Then he woke early today and that is also going to
Make things harder.

Do I also stretch the later A times by the same? We were averaging 1hr15 to 1hr30 but only 1hr other naps bc he was so OT by then.

Thanks!!

[Buntybear]

Hi there and welcome to the boards 

Have you seen these links yet? they are worth keeping handy as you will probably reference more than once over the coming months!

Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!

chronological EASY samples, 4-6 months

I agree with you try and at least get that first A time right so you are getting in at least one good nap  I would say try and stretch the first A out a bit now. He went to sleep at around the 2 hour mark so maybe go for 1hr 45 to start with.

There is an awful growth spurt around 4 months. For us it lasted weeks and sometimes there is just no rhyme or reason to A times and naps. You have to go with instinct. If you can get 5 naps in him then great TBH!

HTH x

[Mjh2mom]

Thanks so much! I have seen the first but not the 2nd so will save them!
I haven't noticed an increase in hunger (but I've never noticed any "spurts").  I am aware of the "regression" around this time. But for him it's been more of a development in that he doesn't want my interfering! He is wanting to self soothe more which makes the stretching hard, too,  because I don't know when to step in and help him to sleep (or more so back to sleep) or not (it was making things worse).

So tomorrow I will try 1hr45 for first nap- when they wake early for the day  (like today) what's the suggested way to handle the A time? I tried splitting it. So say he wakes at 6:30 instead of 7, and I'm wanting him down at 8:45 (for the 1hr45A time) do I do 8:30 (split the 30 min early waking) or just ignore the early waking time if it's less than an hour? He was content in there for about 15 min this am.

Also, for today, how should I handle the other A times? He's fallen back asleep now 2x from that first nap where he woke early. He's been doing this, but will only sleep for 5
Or 10 min then wake fussy. Today is the first he's fallen back asleep a second time. Does this mean I'm getting closer with the A time as he has some drive to go back to sleep (but not quite enough to last long?)

Thanks so much for the welcome and advice, I've literally been sick over the last 2 mos stressing over his sleep. Now that he's at least more content it's been easier to roll with the flow more but I want to get this right and us all rested 

[Buntybear]

Growth spurt/regression/developmental leap - they are all a pain when it comes to sleep and then behaviour as they get older!

I would probably cut the A time a bit as you have suggested with an early start. See how he goes. If he is then UT then you can always extend again.

What are his A times like when he is dropping off again? If he goes to sleep too early it can cause a short na which causes OT so you get into a OT/UT loop.

[Mjh2mom]

Thanks! It seems like 1hr15 was where I was starting to get longer naps but I'm thinking I needed to move up more quickly because then then the naps shortened. Yesterday was 1hr25 when he dropped back off twice. Then today, I put him down at 1hr45 for nap 1 as you suggested and he woke at 35, but fell back asleep after 10 for 35 more minutes! So still moving in the right direction. Then his next nap I put down at 1hr50 or so and he went on to sleep 1hr50 min! Last nap (cat nap) we were at a family function and I put him down right around 2hr, he had been fussy and pretty much went right to sleep for 40min. Tonight we put down for bed at 2hr10 awake and he fussed once down for a bit more than he has lately so not sure if he needed more or less? I was thinking less because of the extra awake time today??BUT last night he went 3hr15 before bed!! He was fine and fell asleep within a few min but didn't crash or wake shortly after like when he's OT. I do think 3.15 is a little too long for his age but maybe because he wasn't getting the A time during the day he tacked it on at night? Thinking out loud here
So today was a good day and we are definitely on track. But should I keep these awake times from today for a few days or adjust?

Wake up: 7:40 (didn't want another early start so I snooze fed at 6a so he'd go back to sleep
E: 7:55
A:  (1hr 40)
S: 9:33-10:15; 10:24-11:03 (extended on own)
E: 11:20
A: (1hr45)
S: 12:55-2:43
E: 2:55
A: 2hr5 ish
S: 4:55-5:27
E: 5:55
A: 2hr10
S: 8:05 (30min to fall asleep)-?? 7a hopefully

Thanks again for the help!!

[Mjh2mom]

Ok so wanted to update after having 2 days of longer A times. The naps improved, but nights have gotten worse.

2 nights ago when A time before bed was 3.25, (asleep at 7:30) he went to sleep easily and slept soundly for 3hrs before waking (10:45) I was able to settle easily and then he woke again at 1:15 and continued to wake every hour. I was able to settle him fairly
Quickly each time.

Then last night, after a 2hr avg wake time across the day and 2.25 before bed-- it took him 30 to fall asleep and was fussy off and on before finally falling asleep. He started stirring ar 1.5hr! And fully woke at 10:30. However, from 10:30-4am every time he woke he would try to settle but wake up again 5-20min later crying. This has never happened before even when he started having more wakings. He use to have issues getting/staying into deep sleep but last night it was if he couldn't even get back to sleep at all. He finally slept 4:30-6a and then I snoozed nursed again bc he wouldn't settle and I knew if we started his day that early it would be a disaster as he hadn't gotten hardly any sleep. He slept 6:15-8a.

Does this sound OT (nighttime) or is it possible he still needed more A time? Neither night he didn't crash and then wake 40mim later which WAS his OT before.

I know he was definitely in a ut/OT loop previously but really felt the day/naps were getting better. Should I be dropping A time after that 3rd catnap? (Even though prior all naps were catnaps)? He wasn't loosing it at all before bed at 3.15 or 2.25 (yesterday) A time.

Sorry for all the questions I just feel like everything is all over the place and it so
Frustrating when you get your hopes up that progress is made then he's waking all night long (which is what I was trying to fix, and it had gotten better over the last few weeks and now worsened again).

Thanks for any suggestions you have!!

[Lindsay27]

Hi hun!  Fantastic that you've been able to get those naps to extend!  We are having similar issues in that our days are pretty good but at about 3.5 months our nights started to go a bit loopy.

I was able to settle easily and then he woke again at 1:15 and continued to wake every hour. I was able to settle him fairly
Quickly each time.

One thing I thought - are you feeding at night at all?  To me the fact that he continued to wake every hour would seem like hunger wakings.  My DD used to sleep from 7pm - 3/4am before needing a feed, but now she wakes at 1/1:30 for her feed.

[Mjh2mom]

Yes I have been. But that's been the hard part- he's not slept thru or mostly thru the night, ever, except when he was a newborn. When things were good (prior to 3 mos) he was sleeping until 12-1 (feed) and then again at 4 or 5. Then gradually he started having wakings after that 12-1 time period, and it was every sleep cycle or so. He seemed still asleep, just not deep. I'd soothe him back to sleep (not picking him up bc that always woke him all the way), but then he'd wake again. Sometimes 45min sometimes 2 hours.
Then a few weeks ago he started waking around 10:30 and would go back fairly easily and then slept 1-4 a few times (skipping that 1st feed) so several times he didn't ear until 4am. As of late when the wakings picked up I tried feeding and one night he literally got mad each time and would pop on and off and fuss, and it was 5:30 before he took a full feed.
Last night I fed at 1am and 6am (snooze) but he still woke at 2:15. Sometimes the feed will get hmm a 2 hour stretch other times it has no affect. It's frustrating because I have no way to know what waking is a feed waking. I was just picking a time like 2am bc that's when he was eating for awhile and not nursing before then.
 It's like we 2 of 3 nights of a similar routine (be it a sucky one!) then it changes. It's literally all over the place. That's why I hoped getting his days sorted out would help but I'm not noticing a difference one way or another. He had been wanting more space to put himself back to sleep but last night even that, and my helping didn't make a difference. He doesn't fall fully asleep nursing either, so I can't even AP to get him some rest. I haven't tried swaying with him until he's in a deep sleep (because any time I had he'd wake up but I wasn't doing it until he was in a deep sleep) so I guess I could try that. I just hate creating bad habits that we never started

[Buntybear]

I do wonder if this is the 4 month growth spurt/regression - whatever u want to call it! Ours started at 4 months and lasted to 6 months -sorry 

If you do feel that he still isn't getting enough day see you could just shorten that last A time. Although if it is a GS there is not much you can do but ride it out 

[Mjh2mom]

Thanks ladies. I know the 4mo regression gets attention a lot- unfortunately we've been battling it since before 3 mos.  like I said, things seemed to
Improve or develop/change at 4 mos.
if Anything he's seemed less hungry during the day (going 3.5-4hr some cycles if naps fell that way) but I make sure to lessen the gap closer to bedtime so he shouldn't be hungry. If he wasn't waking at 10:30, I could think hunger but I know he's not hungry yet at that point. There really seems to be no rhyme or reason to the wakings other than I know his OT for bed use to be waking shortly after sleeping crying.

Could day sleep (and therefore ut/OT) cause that frequent of wakings? I would think ot- a little more restless, a few wakings, and ut a waking that stays awake for awhile and/or wants to play.

if I shorten last A time to make up for the OT from stretching him more in the day, and let's say he ends up going to bed UT then, it would just take him a bit to go to bed/maybe false start but that should be the worst of it if I simply put him down a little early, right?! thonking back  that's what was happening starting a month ago- he'd just lay there playing for an hour, or would fall asleep and then wake a min later kicking/playing so on. Now I know he probably needed more A time before bed or throughout the day.

Gosh sure wish there was a formula to follow!! 

[Mjh2mom]

Also, when having night wakings like this would you cap these naps or only if it's a reoccurring thing? He was OT for his 2nd nap today (1st was 1hr40 long after a 1hr50 wt), I put him down at 1hr35 and he was closing his eyes in my arms. He woke at 50 min crying and after 2 attempts I was able to get him back asleep and now he's going on 2hours. Should I wake him? He woke late this am (8am) bc of all the night wakings so our whole day shifted forward. So I'm either looking at a very early bedtime 5:30/6) or a late catnap as pushing bedtime back. Again, I know the usual answer but all his wakings makes it hard to know what I should do. Thanks!!

[Lindsay27]

I don't personally cap naps myself unless they are ridiculously long, especially if after a rough night.  That's just me though.  With regards to BT tonight, I think I would opt for a late CN and later BT.  I don't personally like soun bedtime before 6:30pm because the fear of EWs scares the life out of me lol.  And if WU was 8am then I think you could safely do a BT as long as 8pm providing naps were decent. 

[Mjh2mom]

Thank you! I agree EW scare me, though we have them every day they are more of a NW because I can tell he's not ready to get up at all.

He's def OT today as the day is progressing- even with a 1hr 40 first nap and near 2hr second nap but I'm sure it's the rough night and stretching him. I just popped him in the swing for catnap at 5:15 and he fell asleep right at a 2hr A time. . I'd like the day to start a bit earlier tomorrow so we aren't in this same rut, so Am going to try to put him down by 7:30 which will only be a 1.5 or so A time but he could use the extra rest (hopefully!) I've also found even if he goes down later he wakes around the same time the first time at night (10-11) so I'd rather he get the extra hour or two before all his wakings.  I was looking over my log and a little over a month ago he slept until 1am before waking. Those were the days! And some people are unhappy with a couple NW a night (like 2), I'd kill for even several 3-4 stretches 

Thanks

[Lindsay27]

Sometimes a shorter A before BT can be fine, my DD rarely does a full A before bed just because it's the end of the day and she's clearly tired.  I know what you mean about the NW, up until 3.5 months she used to go from 7-3am!

The good news is your naps have greatly improved and I think the NWs are just a part of the 4 month fun.