Help with 4.5 mo old stretching A time

[Scottishmummy]

Been following & hope it's ok to weigh in too... Your posts remind me a lot of my own with DS when he was a baby...he is another touchy one & sleep with touchy kids can be really tricky & unpredictable. It's one of the reasons I became so obsessed with naps and read everything I could find about baby sleep as well as posting here lots!!!

One of the big things that can make a difference for touchy kids (& made the biggest difference for my DS) is balancing stimulation and getting a good wind down. Reading your last post so think it sounds like your little boy got overstimulated (OS) when you we're out and about (probably as well as tired- a horrible combination for touchy kids!. OS can present the same as tired signs (yawn, eye rubbing) & in touchy kids turns into that kind of meltdown.

So- in addition to thinking about A times, touchy ones needs us to also think about when to start wind down and balancing activities to avoid OS and help them WD for a good nap.  Could you describe your WD for him & how you balance his activities?

Sorry it's so tough. It sounds like you are trying everything you can for him. All the hard work will pay off- we did all this with my DS, learnt what he needed and he became a good napper around 6mo and a good night sleeper a few months later.

You (& he) will get there xxx

ETA: And pls don't think I'm saying not to go out in case of OS! Just be aware that it can happen.  They do grow out of it and get better at coping as they get older.

ETA2: Both my LOs started looking for a BF around 10pm around 3-4mo, despite having previously slept past then. I just fed them as it was easiest way to get them back to sleep!

[Mjh2mom]

Scottishmummy thanks for weighing in. The more advice the better!

I have a couple questions-
- can you describe overstimulated to me?
- after 2 30 min naps I am right to assume he would need a shorter A time for that next nap, right? I don't understand then why he went down screaming and passed out yet still woke at 30 min and wasn't crying.
- all naps the last 3 days his eyes were heavy as I put him down and he pretty much immediately turned his head to sleep. This always seems OT to me but the first day his naps were long following this and the last 2 they've all been short and woken happy--
- is it possible I'm making him UT by doing wind down too long or early?
- and if so, how do I handle when he keeps fussing/shouting out during A time and I will change what he's doing/move him to a swing/bouncer/etc To change in case it's from boredom then he will continue to fuss/shout and that's when I pick him up and start walking around and talk quietly or sing to wind him down (as I've always been told that if they keep fussying after you change it up that's a good sign they are truly tired)
- I just don't even know where to go/start with these A times anymore. He's been getting fussier and more hyper/shouty during A time yet is waking early from A time anywhere from 1hr45-2hr15min and yet has had a long nap after the shorter end of the A time, coming off of good night sleep.

As far as activity-- I put him one is  activity mat with a few toys he can hold. I usually let this be his independent time though lately he's been fussying sooner and sooner and isn't as content alone. I play some baby music in the room and I work my the kitchen that's attached. Then I move him to his bouncer which right now he just hangs out in it, then I put him in a sit me up thing in the kitchen so he can watch me. Sometimes the order of all these changes. Then when I think he's close to being "done" I put him in the swing in our living room. He use to contently swing snd kind of coo or squeal but then would stare off. Again lately he's been shouting out more, not relaxing in swing. That's when I pick him up and start walking. Other A times I take him for a walk in stroller as he use to just chill but again sometimes he fusses

So I just put him down at 1hr45 WT for first nap as he literally got 2hrs of daytime sleep yesterday and didn't go to bed until 8:15 after a 3hr Wt bc my in laws watched him so we could go out for our anniversary. He was extremely OT after that day. He just woke at 33 min, again quiet and laid there a bit and is now whining/fussying. He was very short/hyper/fussy/shouty during his A time and passed out as soon as I laid him down.

I don't know if he's UT or OT I can't get it right at all!!!
What do I do now for next nap so we don't have a repeat of yesterday? Thank you!!

[Mjh2mom]

Adding that he cooed at me when I went in to move him to swing and has been swinging with eyes wide awake and now has hiccups (he started getting hiccups all the time when he starter fighting me for naps) so I think he was clearly UT. So let's say he does need a bigger stretch, do I try that now when he's only had a 30 nap or stick with lower ones (which is what I did yesterday and he still slept short times)?! Now he's being fussy whenever I lay him down to play or do anything. He was pretty quiet calm when I got him up and isn't being the hyper fussy he was earlier. So this must be more his "tired" fussy that he's doing now.

What A time should I try for next after this short nap??

[Mjh2mom]

Sorry keep adding in spurts as it comes to me. Realized I didn't give you our wind down:

After walking around a bit in the cradle position with a paci (I find he only takes it and sucks when he's tired) singing snd saying "night night" to things (this has been the extra wind down I've added in so sometimes I start with it and do it again mid routine if I feel he needs more A time but trying to keep it low key. Then I dim lights & turn on white noise, change diaper, turn on sea crib soother (he likes to watch the Fish) swaddle, give paci, read a short book or 2 while rocking, then turn off lights and crib soother and sing you are my Sinshine while swaying by crib. (This is when his eyes get heavy, he was going down with no heavy eyes at all and taking longer to settle but that's with the shorter A times and when the short happy naps started.) I stop swaying then lay him in crib and sing one more verse then say "night night time to sleep I love you" and leave. He always kicks right when I lay him down & now turns his head immediately and doesn't move.
- he use to go down more awake and would coo or make this whining sound whole rubbing his foot or tossing his head back and forth (self soothing I assumed) before settling to sleep after anywhere from a couple to 10 minutes. About a month ago (A time increased a bit) it started taking a lot longer for him to settle then the last few weeks he was settling pretty fast (thus why at first I didn't think that could be UT) but still taking a short nap and waking happy (like quiet and then cooing squealing) . Now he's settling instantly and taking a short nap and waking quiet/happy.

[Scottishmummy]

OS happens when more happens in the environment than LOs can deal with. It presents differently in different babies and at different ages. Some show tired signs, but won't settle for sleep, or do but only have a short nap as they sleep to cope with the OS but haven't had long enough A time for a long nap (which might be what happened today) In younger babies they can get v upset, screaming etc., others just get "wired" wide eyed and won't settle or take longer to WD.

Reading your activities and WD, though, I think you're getting a good activity balance already and a good WD.

Could the fussing and shouting be a call for attention/interaction from you rather than a sign of boredom with the activity or tiredness? I seem to remember my DD getting v shouty around that age, especially when we were interacting with her brother not her!

As Lindsay has said, I wonder if he is more spirited than touchy and needing stimulation and possibly longer than average A times but then also harder to settle and needing your good WD too (which you have in place).

Lindsay has already suggested pushing A times & I would agree with this.  You are getting UT naps at 2hrs and a couple of days ago you got an OT nap but successful re-settle around 2hr15.  Sometimes when you push A times it takes a bit of time to settle in.
I would agree with Lindsay to keep adding to your first A time gradually until you either get a long nap or a short nap that you can resettle fairly quickly (within 15mins)

Some babies increase their A times as day goes on so need a longer A time after a good nap, but this also means that they can cope without a reduced A time from a short nap. So I would try holding same A time if you get a short nap and increase it a bit if you get a good nap?

A times increase really fast around this age, and it sounds like that might be what's happening here, no sooner do you catch the sweet spot, then he does another increase!

[Mjh2mom]

Thank you so much. That is very helpful. I will try to increase first wake time tomorrow. Do you all find BW A times are longer than other suggested Waketimes? Everything I find and see most people doing say under 2hrs for this age and even 6 mos. sleep advice varies so greatly. I even hear of the 2-3-4 schedule that older babies do but that still starts with 2hrs. Everything I've ever heard says first waketime is usually shortest. I guess that's why I've had a hard time accepting longer could be the answer, but I guess all I can do is try!

I had always assumed the last few months that because his nights were so bad that he couldn't handle long A times but maybe when night all went wrong it was when he needed more A time & as time went on & I didn't give it to him nights got worse? Who knows?

Last night after only 2hrs of day sleep and a 3hr last A time (though he was clearly OT) he woke after only 2hrs (still 10pm Ish but had gotten out of swaddle) and settled fairly well then woke at 11:00, 12:40, 1:40, was hard to settle (very fussy) moved to swing and slept until 4:40! I nursed him and then he slept from 5ish to 7:30. Could of been catch up sleep? If he woke shortly after the 1:40 waking I would of nursed him but he slept thru. This happens quite frequently. He normally nurses between 2-4a depending on when he wakes and his type of cry. When I've fed any earlier he doesn't eat much and is fussy. And still wakes an hour later.  Will try the 10-11pm waking but not sure it will change anything Based on what I said before

Thanks for all your help!

[Scottishmummy]

BW is about listening and responding to your baby's needs rather than following a fixed schedule. The average A times are guides not rules & some LOs do more, some less. Yes there's a lot of baby sleep advice and it's all different. Personally I like BW as it gives the flexibility to adapt routines to suit individual babies.

[Mjh2mom]

Ok so the last 2 days LO was extremely fussy all day long. I know he was overtired from these 30min naps but anytime I tried to put him down early, he would fuss. Whether it was too early or still too late I don't know?

The last 3 days I've put down for first nap at:
1. 1hr55-asleep 2hr A. Restless sleep. 53 min nap, woke and had pooped
Was very fussy prior and during routine. Woke content wouldn't go back to sleep but became inconsolable quickly after getting up. Tried to put back down and eyes would
Close but was too worked up. Finally got him up and went about. Then PD for next nap at 2hr15- asleep 2hr30, Woke after 10, moved to swing and woke again 17 min later. Fussy so got back to sleep in my arms for 50min.
2. PD 1hr55 first nap, asleep 2hr. Restless sleep, Woke at 28 min but went back to sleep after 5 for 1hr18 total. Was very fussy during routine and PD.
3. PD 1hr43 min, asleep 1hr50.  1hr nap. Woke happy and fussy after up.
4. Today. PD 1hr55 min- asleep 2hr ish. 28 min nap, woke content and laid around, fussed after awhile. I did 2 checks and after 30 min fell back asleep for 50min.

His 2nd nap I put down at 2hr15 and he coo'd and talked and after giving him his paci he fell asleep after 10min. He woke at 30!

Please help me figure out these 28-30min naps! We've never had this short of nap before and just doesn't seem logical it would be UT? Especially when I've PD close to 2.5 hrs and still gotten 30 min naps! 

Is it possible he's just waking happy, though OT!?

I'm glad to be down to 3 naps but when they are this short it means an extremely early bedtime. It also means a lot more A time for the day and not much sleep.

I'm adjusting by 5-15 and still getting naps all over the place. Do
I need to do something more drastic for the first A time to figure out what the 30 min nap means? Like try 1.5hr Snd then try 2hr15 and see how he responds to both?

[Lindsay27]

30min naps typically mean OT.  Honestly what I would do is just pick an A time and stick with it for a few days no matter what.  I think trying all sorts of A times might just be throwing him off ya know? So say do a 2hr A and stick with that for at least 3 days and see what happens.  He might just need a bit of time and consistency for his body to regulate. 

A note on the fussiness, there is a massive developmental leap happening around this time, so it could be completely unrelated to sleep.  It is one of the largest leaps developmentally, my DD was a complete crab apple for about 4 weeks while going through it, so just a thought.