Author Topic: Can anyone help me with the next step towards self-settling?  (Read 1925 times)

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Offline tinydancer

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Hello

My LO has just hit the 9mth mark and I am still dealing with pretty frequent NW and just trying to get his daytime sleep sorted too, really. I am really wanting to get him to self settle for naps and bedtime, as I'm hoping this will help with his NW. He was sleeping through from quite young, but that all went out the window at 4mo and has never really gotten back on track (expect for a few wonderful nights here and there). My partner is wanting me to do VR, but I am resisting!

He is easy to settle in the morning, although as he feeds so frequently overnight it's almost like he is full until right before his nap. He usually has his last NF around 5am ish and then is not interested at all on wake up. He usually falls asleep feeding for this nap, so haven't yet had much chance to try self-settling! I know he would be ok though, as this has always been the easiest nap.

He is VERY resistant to his 2nd nap of the day, and I often have to APOP this one in order to get him through until bedtime. He is very active and observant of everything going on. 15-30mins before nap I will do quiet time with him and sway gently while listening to slow music. Music relaxes him and he will start drifting off. I try and place down drowsy, but he will often rouse himself, flap arms around and sometimes go back into 'play' mode, pulling himself up on bars of the cot and standing. I am sure that timing has got a lot to do with it. Often I spend 30-40 frustrating minutes trying to get him to sleep in time to be up for a reasonable bedtime.

Bedtime has actually gotten better the last couple of days. I have relaxed him with music, then BF and then maybe another couple of songs. He has pushed me away the last couple of nights, as if he wants to be lying down and he's gone to sleep with a bit of bum-patting and shhh-ing.

Can anyone see if our days need to be adjusted at all? I'm wondering if I need to swap his naps, so the first one is shorter and 2nd one the longer nap. Is it possible to bring the AM nap earlier again, or is this really hard to do once it's been pushed out? We work on A times, and he does around 3.5-3.75hrs, although he seems to be more tired at the end of the day.

One thing that I find REALLY hard is that he falls asleep in the car without fail, and this can throw our whole day off. I try not and go out too much, but I also want him to have a life outside of these four walls (and I need to get groceries too!). He will wake as soon as the car stops moving, and is impossible to transfer. He also thinks he's napped for hours if it's only been 10mins.

I am wanting to do whatever I can to reduce the NW, happy to start sleep training if that's what is needed - so give it to me straight!

Here are our last few days...

0710 - awake
0900 - solids [pear & muffin]
1030 - bf
1040 - 1210 - NAP
1.10p - solids [puree, crackers & quinoa patties]
3.00p - bf
3.00p - tried settling for afternoon nap. He'd had an active day at beach and was tired, although fell asleep in car on the way home for 5mins and then was impossible to get to sleep after that, resulting in no nap!
5.00p - solids [puree, pasta & sauce]
6.00p - bf
6.10p- asleep
6.45p - woke, patted back to sleep
10.00p - nf
12.30a - nf
1.20a - cried out but self settled

0630 - awake
0630 - bf
0830 - solids [pear & toast]
0950 - start to settle
1000 - 1040 - NAP
1040 - bf
1230 - solids [fish, fruit, crackers]
2.45p - 3.50p - NAP [in car, drove around to extend it]
4.00p - bf, not very much at all
6pm - solids [sweet potato, broc, fruit]
7pm - bf
7.25p - asleep
11.20p - nf
2.20a - nf
4.45a - nf & BM

7.20a - awake
7.20a - bf, not really interested
9.00a - solids [pear & muffins]
10.35 - bf
10.45 - 12.20 - NAP
2.00p - solids
4.00p - tried to start settling, he was very awake!
4.15p - 4.30p - NAP in car as was not going to go to sleep in time for decent bedtime
6.00pm - solids
7.00pm - bf
7.20pm - asleep
10.40p - nf
2.40 - nf
5.40 -nf
woke for the day at 7.20









Offline jessmum46

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Re: Can anyone help me with the next step towards self-settling?
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2016, 19:16:41 pm »
Hi and I'm sorry you've not yet had a reply.

What is VR?  Not come across that one before!

In terms of the routine, I wonder if he is UT for his afternoon nap so not wanting to settle?  It could also be the (very early) beginnings of the 2-1 - afternoon nap refusal is a common sign.  You might want to read this link just to be able to anticipate what may be coming and how you might want to manage it: From 2 to 1 nap transition (10-12m and older)

Overall though his days really don't look too bad, so I wonder if sleep training is the thing that would really improve your nights?  Have you thought about what sort of sleep training you were going to do?  Are you familiar with the BW methods?

Offline Shiv52

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Re: Can anyone help me with the next step towards self-settling?
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2016, 08:58:04 am »
*message from previous poster removed*

From what you have said, it looks like he has started to become dependent on sleep aids (the sleeping in the car, gentle swaying, etc.)  I think sleep training might be helpful.  You might consider trying the disappearing chair sleep training method.  It's not as intense as cry it out, but it has a similar effect.

On first reading it appears the method you recommend is similar to BWs GW sleep training method. But on reading more i don't feel it is something we'd advocate. In your blog you write:

When you do this method you are not supposed to show your child any attention.  This is only to help them fall asleep.  It is important to not calm them down, touch them, or move them.  Not helping them is a very difficult part of this training method. 

BW is about knowing your child and maintaining the bonds of trust and to begin sleep training and just sit beside the crib offering no comfort while a baby learns a new skill is not something we would be comfortable with.  BW would not advocate ignoring a distressed baby and while you are saying your presence provides the consistent comfort I don't feel it is enough for a baby who has no independent sleep skills and BW would recommend absolutely providing a pat and definitely providing reassuring words. Wed then fade those once a baby is developing independent sleep skills. But providing the reassurance is a big part of BW methods which is missing from the method you are suggesting so not compatible with the methods we advocate on this site.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2016, 06:42:08 am by jessmum46 »





Offline jessmum46

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Re: Can anyone help me with the next step towards self-settling?
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2016, 09:41:54 am »
Agreed, responding to the needs of your child is key here.  That can be in the form of reassurance in words, or touch - my DS when younger used to like his head being rubbed and a gentle hand on his tummy, DD preferred a rub on the back.  Both easy ways to provide LO with the comfort of knowing a parent is present but also easy to wean.  Tracy's methods in the younger age group include shh pat (mainly for younger babies) and PUPD - Pick Up/Put Down (PU/PD) - Everything you ever needed to know!, and there is also gradual withdrawal which essentially involves taking baby steps from where you are now towards independent sleep at a pace that both you and LO can handle - there's a bit of information about it on this link but ignore the information about WIWO for now - that's just for independent sleepers who have gone off track temporarily :) Toddlers: Walk In/Walk Out vs. The Gradual Withdrawal Method (HOW TO CHOOSE)  Hope that's helpful x

Offline tinydancer

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Re: Can anyone help me with the next step towards self-settling?
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2016, 10:10:17 am »
Oh thank you so much for your replies! VR is 'Verbal Reassurance', which I suppose is a slightly gentler way of saying 'Controlled Crying'. They recommend going in at 5min, 10min and then 15min intervals of crying and checking in. I'm not really comfortable with that, and because I've had really great success at other times with the BW technique I want to go back to her methods. I know it will be a little trickier now, as he's that much older and more aware - but I am ready! I really want to help him get there.

Thanks for the link about the 2-1, I had a suspicion that this is might what be going on. I guess I should go with the first option, is that what you would recommend?? It seems as though he has a 1hr15m nap in the am if he's had a good night the night before. Otherwise he sometimes sleeps in, or naps longer to catch up. Would you recommend shortening this to 1hr for a few days, and then down to 45m after this? Or go to 1hr, and then look at the A times again and see if we can stay put for a while?

Ok! Sleep training it is!!! I am definitely ready, but am just feeling a little lost as to where to start. The thing that I really connected with when reading BW Solves All Your Problems was how Tracey laid out a really clear plan, which helped me to be consistent. I'm wondering if I should start right away with PUPD (age adapted)? I know I have read that it is a last resort somewhere, but I am a little lost as to what our middle ground would be. I don't really think that the shhing and bum patting is consistently successful for us to do 'gentle withdrawal' - does that make sense?

Phew. I am on my own with this, as my partner works verrryyyyy long hours. But I am determined!

Another thing I have been wondering about is his feeding... He is soooooo easily distracted - not at all interested in feeding when there is other stuff going on. I feed him in a dark room, but he sucks a couple of times, smiles at me, and then tries to climb away! Maybe he is just full up from eating all night *rolls eyes*


Offline jessmum46

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Re: Can anyone help me with the next step towards self-settling?
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2016, 11:32:41 am »
Ok I wondered if that's what VR was, no that wouldn't be in line with Tracy's methods but happy of course to help you with BW methods!

With the 2-1 I'd suggest to make a change e.g cap first nap to an hour and stick with it for a good few days-week before changing again.  Just gives you a chance to see what will or won't work and give it chance to settle a bit :)

At this age if you don't think GW feels quite right, then I'd go for PUPD.  You're right that it is generally a last resort for younger babies - we'd suggest shh pat for them initially - but in older babies then shh pat is likely to be distracting for them and so an age-appropriate PUPD is fine.

Feeding - oh yes, can be a nightmare when they want to climb!  Are there times (other than at night) that he does feed better?

Offline tinydancer

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Re: Can anyone help me with the next step towards self-settling?
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2016, 10:11:08 am »
Thanks jessmum  :)

I've been capping the naps for 1hr for a few days, and it wasn't going too badly although I was also having to wake him during his 2nd nap too, just so I could get him to bed within a reasonable time. This meant he had around 2.25hrs daytime sleep, with 11 hrs overnight. He would usually do 12hrs overnight, with NFs, so this made his day longer.

What DID go quite well was over the past 3 days I had morning errands to run, and he fell asleep before his usual naptime for 45mins, and I was able to get him backdown around 1.30pm/2.00pm and he had some glorious 2hr naps! Nights seemed slightly better too... maybe?

Today I tried a 45min nap (instead of 1hr), but he still took 30-40mins to settle for afternoon nap (ended up with 4hrs A time). He then took ages to go to bed too - I was maybe trying too early to keep it before 8pm.

Does the actual time of day have anything to do with naps?? He settled so much easier those 3 days when it was around 2pm, and only after 3/3.25hr A. He did seem more tired than usual, maybe it was something else going on?? I have no idea! I am exhausted trying to figure it out and feel like such a failure, tbh.

I am thinking I need to sleep train him for daytime naps to self-settle too - although I'm not so sure I have the timings right for these. He usually does 3.5hr A from WU to first nap, maybe 4hrs to 2nd nap? and then 3.5hrs to BT. This doesn't leave much time for sleeping!! Would it be a bad idea to always do the first nap in the car/walking? And try and make it earlier so I got the timing right for the afternoon?

As you can tell I haven't started the sleep training. I want to be consistent so have been working on the daytime timings - and I couldn't quite bring myself to do it on Mothers Day! I need to stop procrastinating though...

I can't tell you how much I appreciate your help.

In answer to your question re: feeding - he feeds best just before naps (sometimes meaning he'll feed to drowsy), and then sometimes just when he wakes up although I almost have to pretend he's not getting up so he doesn't get excited and distracted.
At night when he feeds he will feed until full, and then push me away and put his fingers in his mouth (he sucks his middle two fingers for comfort).

Offline tinydancer

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Re: Can anyone help me with the next step towards self-settling?
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2016, 02:44:51 am »
Ok, here's what happened yesterday which was interesting...

7.20am - wake up
11.00am - 11.45am - morning nap (woken at 45min)
3.40pm - 4.45pm - afternoon nap (woken to make a good bedtime)
8.05pm - bedtime
only ONE night waking at 1am, where he took a good long feed
then slept through until 7.10am!

I fed him protein at lunch, and carbs [sweet potato & pasta] for dinner with green vege at both.

What do you think? A random one off? Or maybe something to it? Did he decide to give me a break after battling me all day - ha!

Offline jessmum46

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Re: Can anyone help me with the next step towards self-settling?
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2016, 18:39:49 pm »
Who knows?!  Did you get a repeat?

Ideally in a short am routine you need to make that first nap short and early enough to allow a 1.5-2h afternoon nap.  Capping both to less that 1.5h i would think would lead to OT rather quickly.  Would he go down any sooner in the morning?  Like on those days you were out running errands?  What were timings like on those days?

I'm thinking:

WU
3h A
20/30/45 min capped nap - work out what works here to keep next A to.....
3h A max
1.5-2h nap
4-4.5h A time

There is some thought that says a 7-7ish day with naps at around 9/9.30am and 1pm ish are biologically times where LOs are likely to sleep better.  Though it is perfectly possible to do things in other ways :)


Offline tinydancer

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Re: Can anyone help me with the next step towards self-settling?
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2016, 03:19:48 am »
Yeah we did get a repeat, he actually slept for longer stretches the following night... and then back to waking twice a night (which is actually a slight improvement on before).

I think I first need to tackle him learning how to self-settle for naps and bedtime, and then I will look at night-weaning if I'm still having a lot of wakeups. My goal is to get him in a calm state in the cot, walk out of the door and have him settle himself into a sweet dreamy slumber.

I am going to start tomorrow! And here is my plan (to make me accountable);
- walk around house or outside to transistion from play to nap and help calm
- walk into room, draw curtains and turn on white noise
- play one song and cuddle
- lay LO in cot, say sleepy phrase and walk out of room
- wait for a distressed cry before going back, lay LO down and say sleep phrase - walk back out
- repeat until asleep!

I am worried that walking in & out will work him up, but if I stay in the room he still thinks it's playtime. I guess I'll deal with that if it arises.

Would he go down any sooner in the morning?  Like on those days you were out running errands?  What were timings like on those days?

I think I would have to APOP him to go down earlier than 3hr15... as I've worked on actually pushing that first nap out - yeesh!

Wish me luck, everyone! If anyone has any tips to help with this I am all ears!

Offline jessmum46

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Re: Can anyone help me with the next step towards self-settling?
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2016, 18:24:20 pm »
How are you doing?  I guess this is a case of knowing your LO best, in general I think WIWO (which is what you're doing I think) is really only for previously independent sleepers - more of a reminder that they know how to and are able to go to sleep on their own.  It's quite a big step going from nursing to sleep to doing it totally alone, which is why we'd tend to suggest GW instead.  What's been happening when you've tried it?

Offline tinydancer

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Re: Can anyone help me with the next step towards self-settling?
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2016, 08:41:03 am »
Hello!

We were going really great with the sleep training. I decided to start with settling for naps, and then go from there. I ended up doing GW, but would leave the room if he started to play around and go back in when he started crying. On the first day he took around 40mins to fall asleep, and by Day 3 he was falling asleep with a firm hand on his bum and within 5-10 mins. I was about to start gently reducing my presence...

And then he got sick! I've stepped back from the sleep training while he's unwell (just a cold, but he does have a blocked nose which bothers him as he sucks his fingers to go to sleep). It's frustrating that we've stalled (and maybe gone backwards a little bit), but oh well. He does seem to need more cuddles at the moment, so just want to be there for him. I'm hoping it's not one of those colds that lasts the whole winter!

At the moment our schedule looks like this (on a good day), I think I've read somewhere that the 1hr10m naps mean something (as in OT or UT), do you know?

0700 - wakeup
1000 - 1110 - nap
1410 - 1520 - nap
1815 - bedtime


Offline tinydancer

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Re: Can anyone help me with the next step towards self-settling?
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2016, 02:29:21 am »
Is there such a thing as a 11mo sleep regression?? I've spent hours trying to get this LO down for his afternoon nap and it's driving me crazy. He rarely gives tired signs and would stay awake all day if I let him. Yesterday I spent an hour trying to get him to go to sleep and he only slept for 45mins. There have been a lot of tears (mine mostly).

Offline jessmum46

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Re: Can anyone help me with the next step towards self-settling?
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2016, 18:19:39 pm »
Hi and sorry for the delay in getting back - just returned from my holidays :)  How are things?  Have you seen this link?  10/ 11mo sleep gone wonky? Read this first! (2-1 switch)