13 wo not managing the cat nap

[sunny90]

My 13 wo baby boy is vacillating between 30-45 min naps. I can't figure out his ideal A time, but it seems to be more than 1.5 hrs because if he wakes up at 4, he can't manage to fall asleep for a cn at 530. He was doing really well with a cn from 530-6, nursing at 7 and then falling asleep by 730-745 pretty easily. But if he falls asleep close to 330 and wakes at 4 he can't do it. Yesterday he missed the cn, fell asleep OT at 720 while nursing, but then his NW was an hour earlier and then he had an extra one afterwards.
What do I do in terms of his schedule? Do I just put him down for the night earlier til he can manage a 2 hr EASY? I don't know how I'll manage that as I have 3 other boys ages 6 4 and 2 and their bedtime is 7, can't make it any earlier and can't put him to bed while they're still awake.

[creations]

Hi there
Can you post the full day EAS times please?  I'm trying to see where the CN time has changed.  It may be that you can increase the A time before his last long nap to get that back to a long nap rather than short and then do a CN a bit later and maintain the 7.30 BT but without seeing your full day it's hard to tell.

[sunny90]

Okay so
E 7-720 ish
A 730
S between 845 and 9, I put him to sleep and rock him in his carseat/buggy. Then he will wake up between 30-45 min later and I never know how long. He doesn't really show sleepy cues.  Anyway I rock him and sometimes he falls back asleep.
E 10-1030 depending on his last feed
A
S 12ish,  same thing
E 1-130 depending on if I do it before I pick up my 2 yo at 120 or after
Now here comes the tricky part.
If I put him in too early like at 230 he wakes up at 3 and is cranky til I feed him at 4 and he drifts off while nursing at 4 and then it's hard for him to catnap (I try to force it in the baby carrier but doesn't always work) Best case scenario he falls asleep at 3 wakes up at 330. Any later and the cn is almost impossible . Then he doesn't nurse enough at his 7 pm bedtime because he falls asleep.
Also for the past 2 nights he woke up earlier and earlier (1ish and 12) so gna start the df. But why would he do that if he was was going easily til at least 2 or even close to 4 sometimes?

[creations]

It would be really helpful if you could record the exact times for a day or two please.

The tricky thing is that at 13 wks old their A times are still very short so reading approximate times on an EASY means I can't really tell how long he has been awake or slept for, 10 or 20 mins difference in A time can totally disturb a routine.  For instance looking at your example, if he sleeps from 8.45 for 45 mins and wakes at 9.30 then the next nap comes at 12 ish this is 2.5hrs A time which is extremely long.  it's the same between the 12 ish nap and the 3pm nap, I can't see ho long he is is awake or sleeping if the EASY only tells me that sometimes he sleeps for 30-45 mins and sometimes he falls back to sleep.
Some times it is possible to see from an EASY why a nap is 30 or 45 mins long, these two timing (sometimes, not always) indicate different issues, whilst I may be able to offer some advice knowing details such as "he had 2hrs 15 mins A time, he slept for 30 mins woke crying and was rocked back to sleep" for instance,  it is quite difficult to tell what is happening if the naps 30-45 mins without knowing the exact A time, his mood on waking and if he was able to be resettle for that particular nap.

With regards to waking at night again, he may be going through a growth spurt, night feeds increase through these for a few days.

If you have a couple of days with accurate EASY times I'd be happy to have a look to see if somethign jumps out at me, otherwise I suggest beginning to record EAS times throughout the day (and night) and post again in a couple of days. It would be useful if you could record the EAS times throughout the time you are being supported so we can see what's happening.

[sunny90]

Okay I'll keep a more exact record for the next couple of days.

[sunny90]

Also, I find when I nurse him, he keeps drifting off, even if he's just had a nap and woken up. So I'm wondering if this is maybe screwing up his A times? I do my best to keep him awake, stroking him and talking to him but if I dont pay attention sometimes i look down and he's asleep.

[sunny90]

Day 1
Woke 650
E 700
A
S 855 -- at 830 looked a little tired so changed him and wrapped him but then he leaked through the swaddle so had to

change him again, wrapped and gave dummy and held against me and patted bum til his eyes started closing and then put him

in the buggy and rocked, fell asleep by 855 (he doesn't really tend to show sleepy cues til hes OT)
925 woke up, rocked back to sleep and slept til 1010
E 1015
A was pretty fretful except for when I was changing his diaper and playing with him
S 1155 -- 1130 wrapped up because he was crying and I thought I'd see if he needed less A time even though he didn't seem

so tired, held him for 15 min with dummy and patting his back and put him in the buggy at 1145, rocked him til his eyes

started closing and he fell asleep at 1155 and spit out his dummy after a few min
1240 stirred (which made it a 45 min nap, could 1:45 A time be his "sweet spot"?) so I rocked him and let him sleep til

1:05 because I had to feed him and pick up my 2 yo
E 1:05
A was still cranky, once i rocked him in the baby seat he calmed down a little and was happy in there for about half an

hour
S 2:55 -- wound down at 2:40 and rocked him and he was asleep by then
Woke up 3:25 but it doesn't bother me because maybe now he'll take a cn
E 400
A
S 530-555 CN in baby carrier
A Bath and pjs
E 700
Took a while for him to go to sleep because he had a dirty diaper when i was burping him so I changed him and it took him

til 8 to settle down and sleep
E 11 pm DF for about half an hour til he was asleep again
S
E 230
Put back in crib
E 545 ended up keeping him nursing in bed with me til he fell back asleep around 620 because my kids were being loud

outside the door

Day 2

E 700 -- he seemed to drift off during this feed no matter how hard I tried to keep him awake, fed til 730
A
S 915 -- started rocking at 9 with swaddle and dummy because I felt he really slept til 730 so that's 1.45 A time, fell

asleep at 915 and spit out the dummy 3 min later
1000 woke up, rocked him but he didn't manage to stay asleep
E 1005
A
S 1150 -- was only able to wind him down at 1145 due to school pickup, he fell asleep pretty quickly but woke up at 1220,

was able to rock him back to sleep by 1240 but he woke up at 1245 and wouldn't go back to sleep
E 100 -- he was really tired during this feed and kept drifting off and I kept waking him up
A didn't seem so tired til about 150 (1.5 hr A time) so I changed and wrapped him but then he didn't seem so tired, rocked

him but he cried and wasn't falling asleep easily dont know if he was OT or UT because he possibly catnapped during his

feed?
S 220 -- finally fell asleep
300 on the dot woke up rocked him back to sleep until 320 when I let him wake up so he could CN
E 400
A
S 540-605
E 700
S 730
Went to sleep early so didn't manage to DF
E 1250
E 315
E 530

[sunny90]

Now I'm wondering if this is a combination of needing to change his schedule and night waking issues. Maybe it doesn't go under the Nap heading at all!
I've come to the conclusion that a 1.45 A time seems to work better for him. But now his whole schedule is off, should I be trying to push it to 2 hrs and a 4 hr easy even though he's only 14 wo?

[creations]

Thanks for posting your EAS times.

Looking over the times I don't think I would increase from 1hr 45 just yet. He seems to result in an OT nap of more like 30 min with a longer A time.
although 45 min naps can some times suggest an UT nap and LO is unable to transition into the next sleep cycle because he is not tired enough, it also depends a great deal on his ability to self sooth and if he has yet learned to sleep for long. You may need a period of training him to sleep longer rather than increasing his A time.  It is already relatively high (4 months is 1hr 45 to 2hrs guidance).

I would continue with the 1hr 45 A time, perhaps keeping your eye on the clock a little more than you have before (rather than cues) and see how the next few days go.

[sunny90]

Should I be starting a new topic for the more frequent night wakings?
Also, if I nurse him at his E time and he seems to keep falling asleep do I count that as part of his sleep? Or a catnap?
Right now we have family craziness and would not be able to be consistent with pupd, but how else can I train him to sleep longer?

[creations]

Frequent NWs can be a growth spurt if it's for feeding.  I would not read too much into it if he is waking hungry for a few nights.
NWs can also be routine linked so it helps to see the naps and nights routine at the same time. It's fine to continue here for now, I'll let you know if I think a new thread would be helpful - is that okay?

the threads may be helpful in terms of teaching independent sleep:
Teaching Sleep- Tips from the boards
We suggest shush/pat rather than PUPD at this age, and in any case PUPD is more of a 'last resort' method
Shush-pat - How to
It's possible to adapt shush/pat if needed so I see you do a little rocking in the pram, this can be reduced and reduced the way patting is, the key is to keep moving forward with progress so that you do not rock all the way to sleep.

This can also be useful
How do I address habitual wakings? (wake-to-sleep and other methods)
I think you might be doing a little of the W2S anyway, rocking or patting through the transition time to help him sleep longer. It can be more successful if you don't wait for him to fully wake but help him transition whilst he is still asleep/sleepy.

Try to keep to the A time and try to keep him awake for his E.
When he wakes from a nap if it was a short nap see if you can resettle without feeding, if he does not resettle have him awake a bit longer so he is properly awake before feeding.  It is not vital to the routine to feed on waking, the point of EAS is to separate feeding from sleeping, if he has a short nap and 3 hrs has not yet past and it is not time to feed then you can wait until close to the time so your routine might look EASAEAS.  Do try to avoid feeding to sleep as this will not help with sleep training, you may need to be vigilant when feeding to atop it happening.

See how you go for a day or two and post your EAS (including nights) here, I'll have another look.
hth

[sunny90]

Thanks!
I've found, over the past couple of days, the 1.45 A time is working for him but the problem is lets say he falls asleep at 1.50 he wakes up 30-45 min in and it takes me about 15 min to get him to go back to sleep (rocking for now) he falls asleep and then I have to feed him 15-20 min later if it's 30 min nap and less if it's a 45 min nap! So hes getting basically maximum 1.10 min naps. (with rocking)
I'm feeling like the schedule isn't working so well for us, I feel like the 4 hr schedule would be better in a way. Are you meant to be working towards 4 hrs AT 4 months or start transitioning when they turn 4 months?

[creations]

Are you meant to be working towards 4 hrs AT 4 months or start transitioning when they turn 4 months?

I've had this question myself in the past because it is the 4/4 4hr EASY at 4 months but in one of the BW books Tracy wrote that LOs were ready to move to the 4hr E during their third month which to me means during the time from 3-4 months but mostly here on the forums we say it is at 4 months and during the month from when LO turns 4 months.
Unfortunately as Tracy is no longer with us we are unable to ask for clarification BUT as with all things BW Tracy taught us to listen to our babies so really it matters very little if baby is exactly 4 months or a bit over or under, so we can manage without exact rules as we follow what our individual baby needs.
Tracy also said some babies are not ready for the 4 hr E until closer to 6 months (or at 6 months), she mentioned prem and low birth rate, and BF babies may not be ready to move to 4hrs. My own DS, not prem, not low birth weight and not BF could not go longer than 3hrs between E until he was 6 months old.  He just couldn't.  Once he had solids between his milk feeds he was able to extend the time between milk feeds up to the 4hrs.
On the flip side I've seen on threads LOs who have had a stay in hospital at birth and been put on a 4hr E routine from the get-go as that is what the hospital has done.

If he can go longer than 3hrs then his nap time won't bother him. He will not wake hungry just because you expect him to eat at 3hrs, if he is asleep he is more likely to go over 3hrs for E and be hungry after he's finished sleeping.  This may mean one or more feeds goes longer than 3hrs whilst the others stay at 3hrs for instance. It's fine.  You don't have to wake him at the 3hr mark to feed him, just wait until he wakes.  And if you continue with the sleep training he is likely to get a longer nap and one that is not broken or disturbed.
if he goes over the 3hr mark and is sleeping then you feed when he wakes, you can count the next E from that time, so see the E time and add 3hrs this is roughly when he will need to eat again unless he is asleep.  if you end up in a position where E comes just before a nap try to give the feed a touch earlier so you avoid a feed to sleep habit.
Does this help?
The BW routines are not hard and fast, they are very adaptable for the individual needs of the baby.