Help with 2-1 transition gone wrong

[JennVanessa1083]

Hello!

So I'm back again around DS' nap situation 

He's never been an amazing sleeper or napper but we finally started getting into a predictable routine last month. He started the 2-1 transition and so we were doing long am/short pm. OT started building up at BT causing NW so I tried short am/long pm for awhile which seemed to help. Anyways, we went on a trip where there was a 3 hour time difference and he started teething his lateral incisors which have been really affecting him. We just came back a week and a half ago and his old routine isn't working anymore. I don't know if it's OT from the trip (probably is) or the teething or he outgrew his routine. Hard to tell with so much going on (he's also learning to stand by himself).

I was advised to start a new thread here (I had one in NW board) to get fresh eyes and support on the 2-1. This is what we have been doing that doesn't work anymore.

WU 8 am
S 11:15-11:45 am
S 3:30-5 pm
BT 8:30

We also did this on some days which worked (when we had plans in the afternoon)

WU 8 am
S 11:30-1 pm (sometimes 11:45; depending on NW)
S 5-5:30 pm
BT 8:45 pm

We started getting only 1-2 NW and he was dropping his NF down to 1 before the trip. Now we are getting 3NW including a NW before 3-4 hours past BT. He fights bedtime and naps most of the time and also has NW where he doesn't drift off quickly after a feed. Either he is rolling around fussing or wide awake trying to explore and stand. Before the trip we were starting to get 7-8 hour stretches. I am working with the BF board to start night weaning but I also think it's a routine issue.

Any thoughts?

Thank you so much!

[Scottishmummy]

Hi JV!

Remind me how old your LO is?

Sounds like he's UT at BT & naps on your current routine. Time for an A time increase?

Do you think he's ready for an A time increase, e.g. To gradually work towards closer to 4hrs A time in the morning therefore 1 nap around 12 &, if you get a good one-EBT; or if nap not long enough just a 10-15min CN for 2nd nap?

[JennVanessa1083]

Sorry! DS is 11 months. Tonight he had a NW not even 3 hrs after BT that was after stirring at after 1 hr.  He just finally fell asleep after nursing him. I held out for an hour to try to resettle him but he was crying hard rolling around where I thought perhaps teething  pain. He was miserable and it was awful!

Anyways today he did get a little more day sleep so that may have contributed to this mess.

This was his routine:

NW 10:33, 1:22-1:55 (tossing and turning fussing even after feed), 5:46-6:15ish (same thing wide awake finally nursed)

Total 10.25 hrs

WU 8:08
S 11:42-12:47 pm (A 3:34; fought sleep a little; woke up at 51 minutes)
S 4:31-5:53 pm (A 3:54; tried at 3.75 but fought sleep; woke up 27 crying for 10 minutes)
BT 9:17 pm (A 3:24; stirred at 1 hour; woke up crying hard at 12:11 didn't go to sleep until 1:15 am)

Do you think he is UT?

Thank you again!

[Scottishmummy]

I think UT is a possibility, or OT from bad nights or still disrupted from teething! Unfortunately with babies it could be a number of things! Or UT/OT! UT for that first nap then OT by the 2nd and at BT!

I found this link which might help:
10/ 11mo sleep gone wonky? Read this first! (2-1 switch)

So following that you could try a shorter AM nap e.g. 15 mins only and maybe bring 2nd nap forward to compensate for shorter first nap but also give more A time before bed?

[Shiv52]

Hello!!! Where are you with independent sleep? I see you mentioned nursing before bed? I think at this age even the perfect routine will be totally totally disrupted if a LO can't settle themselves. You'll find nap transitions and NWs worse as they can't get through light cycles of sleep without you there to help them.

Just don't want you wasting a tonne of time trying to work out an ideal routine if first you need to be tackling independent sleep as you'll just keep going round in circles.

[JennVanessa1083]

Maybe you are right it's a UT/OT loop. 

i could try a 30 minute AM nap; I'm a little scared to do a 15 minute nap because of possible built up OT. Is that me just being paranoid?

I guess I'm wondering what A times are usually appropriate after a short am nap say 30 minutes?
Also after say a 1.5 pm nap for BT not to be OT?

I read the link so I think bc we have a propensity for shorter nights and pm nap refusals, the short am/longer pm is the way to go.

On the teething front I'm already medicating so it will just have to run its course.

PS Happy Mothers Day!!!!!!!

[JennVanessa1083]

Hi Shiv! Happy Mothers Day!

We have definitely made progress on the IS front as don't nurse to sleep. However, it's been hard to get him to totally settle on his own bc he just rejects bedtime where I'm thinking ok he's UT but then wakes up soon after crying 

I would love to have some support on gently getting him back to IS. I have been doing GW as he was quite clingy when we got home from our trip and what I believe also with teething pain.

[Shiv52]

That's great you're not nursing. That is progress. So are you able to put him in his cot awake and just reassure or what is happening at the minute?

Have a lovely Mother's Day xx

[JennVanessa1083]

Well as of now I put him down drowsy so we are definitely getting there!

Last night he had two NW which is better but I tried to withhold feeding on the first and well he turned out to be actually hungry. His nursing has been fussy due to the teething. Anyways, he did an 11 hour night which was better but he still stirred a lot during the two hours after BT and he actually woke almost 3 hours after BT which I believe is OT right?

[JennVanessa1083]

We got a short night last night but naps were very wonky due to the day we had. Just in case I want to put up the EASY to maybe give a bit more info to our shorter nights.

WU 8:23
S 12:04-1:34 (A 3:41; fought a little; woke up at 25 crying had to hold him upright for him to fall asleep; woke up again at 1:01)
S 5:39-6:23 pm (A 4:05; car)
BT 9:39 pm (3:16)

NW 2-2:30 (stayed up trying to stand and crawl around even after feed), 5:24

Woke up at 8 am but dozed off after nursing

Today I plan on continuing what I have been doing but allowing the first nap to be shorter. A times may not be right but I'm trying to keep consistency:

First A 3:25
Nap 1 30 minutes
Second A 3.5-3.75
Nap 2 1.5
Last A 3.25-3.5
BT

Who knows if this will help. 

[JennVanessa1083]

Hi Ginger!!

Thank you for checking in and for the suggestions.

 He was responding to GW but today was a nightmare getting him down for his first nap; he fought it for 30 minutes then just cried. He did not want to lay down just kept sitting up. So I had to hold him upright and he fell asleep. I think the teeth are just hurting no matter what I throw at him medicine wise. NF still at 2; I'm in the process of talking to the mods at the BF board to night wean; however at this point it's looking like it's actually hunger which means I may need to somehow up his caloric intake. However, he's starting to stay up even after a feed trying to stand! So in lost!

I think right now it's a perfect storm of teething, the 2-1, and him being obsessed with learning how to stand on his own 

Edit: we have 2-3 NW and/or EW. As much as I want the short am/long pm. I might have to try the other way around without him fighting the pm. I find after a 1.5 am; he responds to a 4 hour A time before the pm for a 45 minute nap.

[ginger428]

Hi Jennifer,
Hugs again and hang in there!

*** Just saw your post and glad that you're getting support with dropping NFs.

He just finally fell asleep after nursing him. I held out for an hour to try to resettle him but he was crying hard rolling around where I thought perhaps teething  pain. He was miserable and it was awful!

Oh no! so sorry Jennifer. This must have been hard for you! I think with what I gather from here, we really should sort out nursing to comfort/to sleep at night.

I guess I'm wondering what A times are usually appropriate after a short am nap say 30 minutes?Also after say a 1.5 pm nap for BT not to be OT?I read the link so I think bc we have a propensity for shorter nights and pm nap refusals, the short am/longer pm is the way to go.

Whatever you decide, you'll have to stick with it... as you already know!

2-1 is so hard... and it was the longest transition for us, so hang in there.  It does get better... and I'm the one who never thought it would. =P

[JennVanessa1083]

Hi Ginger again!

Yea this 2-1 is really tricky. Today he ended up only sleeping for 37 minutes after a 3.75A; seems UT but at this point who knows. I will see what happens in the afternoon. I'm just winging it at this point with his EASY.

He didn't have OT wakings after BT last night after a shorter afternoon nap (45 minutes); he did 1.5 in the am after a 3:40 A but that was after a rougher night.

I am hoping this passes soon!

[JennVanessa1083]

I think I need someone to suggest what's a typical routine for an 11 month old bc clearly what was working two weeks ago isn't working anymore.

This is what we are currently doing:

WU 8 am
S 11:30-noonish
S 3:45-5ish pm (usually wakes up between 27 minutes-36 minutes)
BT 8:30-9 pm (depending on nap 2)

I know I need to work on IS but its hard to do that when I don't even have a reference point to start with. So I'm wondering what other people were doing at this age.

[ginger428]

Obviously schedules differ and always depend on the baby, but the GENERAL routine for 11-12 mo. in terms of number/time is...
Naps: 1-2
Total nap time: 2-3 hrs (messes up during 2-1)
Awake time: 3-4 hrs
Total night time: 11-12 (also messes up during 2-1)

Here is what I gathered from your posts and our recommendations.  There certainly is a lot going on, but we may be able to rule out certain things. Again, we're very happy to support you, but don't want you to stress over things out of your control and with the inevitable daily nuances. You really are doing the best that you can!

Independent Sleep/Sleep training
-Put down wide awake, no rocking to naps or nursing to sleep
-Use GW or Wi/wo, try one method for 5+ days

Weaning NF (Re: Hand Holding for Night Weaning?)
-try 1 breast for 2 NF OR decrease time on breast incrementally
-get to 1 NF
-get to 0 NF
-snacks + bf, bm in cup

Naps/EASY
-wake same time +/- 15 mins every morning
-keep same A time in the morning or start moving to 4 A in 15 min increments
-use short am/long pm strategy or vice versa
-aim to get at one mid-day nap with either short am or pm nap
-resettle using same method as sleep training

Night Wakes
-For physical development, ride it out, keep WU time the same
-Minimal/no contact if lo is happy
-use same method as sleep training

Teething (please check with your pediatrician for dosing and duration... ie. for a week, 2 weeks, etc..)
-give ibuprofen 30 min before bed
-give ibuprofen or tylenol 30 min before naps (one that requires most resettling)
-once teeth cut, possibly do full NF weaning

If you can achieve IS, you can eventually rule out NWs, NFs, discomfort, OT, etc....  As for routine, since you don't know how long his naps will be, you can keep the first nap time (with the same WU time every day), and adjust from there, keeping the same A's for at least 5 days.

The 2-1 thread is a great place for support with other moms in the same boat... hopefully more will join you there. Depends on your DS, but the 2-1 is one of the longest, so it might not pass as soon as you'd like, but it will pass!  I think once DS falls asleep wo nursing and you reduce the NFs, he'll get better uninterrupted sleep at night which can definitely help.