Help with 2-1 transition gone wrong

[JennVanessa1083]

UGH sounds like my DS...it seems like he always needs tweaking; he also appears to be LSN which is where its confusing in terms of figuring out naps versus night sleep. He currently averages 12.5-13 hours of sleep; or maybe that's average.

I know he won't go down before 3 hours unless he is SUPER tired. Today I did 3.25 and got a 32 minute nap. He woke up fine so I may stick to that and see how it plays out. I did a 3.5 A for the afternoon nap and he did 1:20 which I thought indicates UT, but then was still very groggy and what seemed like trying to go to sleep but couldn't. So not sure if it means he needs a smidge less in A or a smidge more in A  and there lies my problem. So any thoughts or BTDT insight would be awesome at this point.

Also is 3.5 A after a 1.5 nap sufficient for his age or will this cause UT NW? He is currently 11.5 months old.

Thank you!

[ginger428]

Hi Jenn! Great advice here and glad someone hopped onto the 2-1 to hold hands along this tiring phase!

IME our pm A was always at least 30 min longer than morning AM until he got older.

You said it was day 4 of the 11, 3 nap... awesome job for hanging on!!! If you can, hold off for one more day!
So sorry to hear about NWs getting worse... what are they like now?

After day 5, the new EAsy sounds good, but try keeping bedtime the same so that the only thing you're changing essentially is the second nap time.  This helps with ruling out things, kwim? Also, I wouldn't move the first Nap time and I would try 2:45 first, for 3 days, then reassess and consider 2:30 for another 3. Keeping bedtime the same, +/- 15 mins (15 mins doesn't usually upset routine, but helps to get to target times).

WU 7:30 am
S 11-11:30 (he wakes up on his own fussy so should I make this nap earlier?)
S 2:30-4 pm (4:30 would be a dream come true)
BT 7:30 pm

[JennVanessa1083]

Hi Ginger!!

Thanks for the response and the encouragement. Last night was much better. He slept from 8-3:30 am stirring at 1.5 hours after bedtime and 5 hours after BT but never full woke up. Night weanjng is going well too. I have been pushing back for an hour every couple of days. Last night he went about 7.5 hours without a feed! So I'll be continuing that for the next week with the hopes of consolidating both feeds at the early morning feed them pushing that back until WU.

I'm sorry maybe I'm slow. I didn't fully understand what you meant by leaving the am nap but trying 2.45 then 2.5A? Did you mean the A time before the second nap? Or did you mean before the am nap? My DS will lie down in the morning at like 3 hrs A is that a tired sign? I'm working on gradually getting him back in the crib but today he wasn't having it at 3.25. Maybe I missed his window when he was lying down in the living room right before 3A? I had to wake him at 45 minutes so he woke up groggy.
Did you also mean your LOs A time before pm nap was 30 minutes longer than the first one. For example:
WU
3A
Nap 1
3.5
Nap 2

Also how do I keep bedtime the same with altering A times. Seems like it's always changing. He seems to do best with a 8 pm bedtime. He did an 11.5 night last night.

Yesterday went like this:

NW 12:40, 3:24 (wide awake for a little even after I fed), 6:02 wide awake fussy and hot; fed)

Total ~10 hrs

WU 7:48 am
S 11:02- 11:36 pm (A 3:14; didn't fight; rubbing eyes all morning)
S 3:07- 4:29 pm (A 3:31; restless the entire time; could be OT from yesterday or too much A)
BT 8:09 pm (A 3:40; twitchy at first stirred at 1.5)

Then last nights NW: 3:30 (wide awake after feed), 6:20 (fed both times) up at 7:30 am

Thank you again!

[JennVanessa1083]

Hi!

This question is for Scottishmummy who used gradual withdrawal as a sleep training method or anyone who has with sucess.

I might be doing this wrong but I tried to put DS down drowsy but it turned into a 30 minute meltdown so I caved smh. Wondering if maybe I should have waited until he was just about to be asleep? I was finally able to get him to nap in his crib and now he's even more sensitive when I put him down asleep. Anyways, He was drowsy but fussy so maybe not sleepy. I'm wondering if he was already OT since it was almost 3.5 after a 45 minute nap (I woke him) and he was crying and trying to get comfy in my arms and couldn't. I put him down since he could not get comfy and that started a crazy struggle. I'm going to have to go slower maybe? What do I do if he starts crying?

Maybe I already started at a disadvantage. He was almost falling asleep twice but fought it and cried, rolled, sat up, stood up. It was a mess. I finally gave in after a 4 hour A. Maybe my A time is off after the am nap.

This is what we did today thus far:
WU 7:30
S 10:40-11:25 (I woke him)
S 3:25- (aimed for 3 pm but maybe I should have aimed for 2:30?)

I feel so bad hearing him cry and looking scared. Please help!

[ginger428]

Jennifer,
i had responded to your questions but I don't see my post! ?!?

I meant pm nap time at 2:45pm, then bring it earlier to 2:30pm if needed after a few days.

Ok, sorry to say but once you give in, it's like starting all over and is actually harder on the baby. I know you're doing your best though! Even though it's messy, stick with it...Without being concerned about the A times. So even if it takes til 5A, be there for him until he falls asleep but don't use the prop you're trying to stop. Remember that some of us has already said that you kind of have to let the nap times be what they are until he's 100% independently sleeping to know what the actual deal is.

Is your method currently holding? Were there any suggestions about patting? What I had to do when DS got up was put him back down. Again and again. A version of pu/pd. He cried but I never left his side until he stayed down. And I didn't ever leave before he fell asleep until he would go down without a fight. I think I even bent down and held him (like cradle him gently) in his crib to help him or pat his back while he was standing, then put him down. I've also given in during that time and picked him up when he was hysterical, but eventually I had to bite the bullet and stop picking him up or he'd just keep seeking it.  I know that's really tough but it might be necessary in your situation. After that, I used the patting, occasional holding, wi/wo, whatever worked for the blip in IS, but it was much easier to revert to IS.

[JennVanessa1083]

Thanks Ginger for the clarity about the pm nap. I'm going to do 3 A hour today before the pm nap and hope for a long nap. Last night again was improvement but he woke up twice and both times he was ready to play. He did go back down but I'm wondering if that is a bit of UT going on or OT. I personally think OT from yesterday's afternoon debacle.

As for using GW, I'm back to square one as you said but I'll be going about it at a much slower pace since I realized he has some SA going on. I didn't realize it can peak around this age. Thank you for the tips, I honestly feel if I can get him within the right sleep window it is so much easier since he use to be fine in the crib and SS.

[ginger428]

Sounds good, Jennifer! Definitely do what you feel is best. And you know you have us here with the tools when needed. =)

[Scottishmummy]

Hi
Just saw your question above... It's a while since I did GW with DS but if he's crying a lot I would do what you need to to soothe him but still try to get him to a point of calm and falling asleep, then let him do last bit himself.  Are you soothing in cot once you put him down? You need to do that at first with GW.
As you say it might also be because of A times. Hope you had a better time of it today

[JennVanessa1083]

I was wondering can I just APOP the first short am nap? Then work on GW for the long nap when I know he's good and tired?

If he's hysterical even with GW I don't pick him up? I'm not sure how this is different than say just PD? I picked him up after an hour of hysterics. He was sweaty and crying so hard, I got upset myself. Is this the gentlest method? Maybe I just don't have it in me to do this.

[Scottishmummy]

Sorry, you misunderstood me, I would pick him up if he is upset, as soon as he gets properly upset (not just mantra cry) , I wouldn't leave him to get hysterical- not good for him or you....just put him down again when he's calm and before he falls asleep so he can do last bit of falling asleep by himself.

ETA- Sorry just realised I contradicted ginger! I had to pick my DS to comfort and calm him but every baby is different, as she says, for some it would prolong things and make it harder.

[ginger428]

Oh hugs Jennifer! I bet you shed some tears! And btw, i *know* how confusing and overwhelming all this can be. So sorry that this attempt didn't work after trying to follow what I described. So sorry!

No worries Scottishmum! We all have different temperament babies and experiences... We're trying to figure out what will work for Jenn'a bub.

An hour of crying hysterically is certainly not good.
I did pick up when it got bad, but perhaps after many attempts DS got used to it? It was gradual in that sense that we kept working on it and did less and less until he got it. But for us, I did try at times to console him in the crib versus picking him up.  I think Scottishmum is right on with you LO, poor thing, who like you said is perhaps going through SA at the moment and needs picked up for now. Then try to lay down again. Like she described...

[Scottishmummy]

I was wondering can I just APOP the first short am nap? Then work on GW for the long nap when I know he's good and tired?

In an ideal world you'd sleep train for both naps for consistency...but it sounds like it's really stressful for you both.,.and the short nap will be the one that goes eventually, so you could try focussing your efforts on 2nd nap if that would be easier.

[Shiv52]

It's definitely better to AP as a plan than to start and give in so if you know the first nap is hard and you end up giving in and lifting him then just AP from the outset x

[JennVanessa1083]

Thanks ladies for the encouragement and the helpful suggestions. I think I am going to gear towards the second nap and APOP the first only because it's a UT nap and he just wants to play until lo and behold he's OT.

Yes I like the suggestion of putting him down sleepy then gradually love towards awake. I tried comforting in the crib by stroking his hair, patting, and even holding him in the crib which killed my back. He just wouldn't have any of it. The look in his face broke me, he looked scared. I think it's definitely SA bc he never used to be like this. I sleep trained him at 4 months using shh pat but obviously that failed today as well. Anyways, I will give the suggestions a try tomorrow.

Today is a wing it day in terms of naps. I ended up taking DS out on an impromptu picnic after music class since I thought we could both use a change of scenery 

[JennVanessa1083]

Hi ladies, I have a question:how do I know if the NW are UT relates even if they are around 5 hours or so after BT or early morning as opposed to maybe residual OT? Or maybe even teething?

DS has woken up in the middle of the night rolling around fussy and trying to what appears to be standing on his own? Is this just developmental or maybe in need of more A?

We have been doing the following:

WU 7:30
S 11- 11:30/11:45 am
S 2:45/3 pm-4:30 pm
BT 8 pm

Although the short am and long pm is definitely making Nights so much better!

Also do you do GW when teething? Again today he would not go down for an hour! He kept biting and playing. I couldn't give him any more meds either. I had to put him to sleep then down. And supposed to wait? Today I tried to put down drowsy and he ran around the crib practicing standing and attempting to walk. Finally at around 4:15A he started crying. I tried to pick him up but he was wayyy too OT. Maybe I'm just chasing my tail bc he's uncomfortable with his teeth?