Author Topic: EW desperate  (Read 2843 times)

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Offline ewabear

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EW desperate
« on: May 09, 2016, 20:46:18 pm »
Hi, we have been struggling with EW for few days now. Anuthing I can do? Ww can also have NW sometimes, maybe due to developmental changes.
WU.  5:40
S.     7:40
A.     8:15
S.      10
A.     11:35
S.     13:30
A.     14:05
S.     15:55
A.      16:25
BT.     18:10m

DD2 is 4,5 months old, 3,5-4 h easy, feeds once during the night.

« Last Edit: May 09, 2016, 20:51:16 pm by ewabear »

Offline jessmum46

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Re: EW desperate
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2016, 06:54:42 am »
If it's only been a few days I'd generally suggest to ride it out a little while to see if it corrects itself.  That said, you haven't really got a true EW as your LO has an 11.5h night there, anything over 10.5-11h may be all some little ones need so I don't think you can expect a much later WU with bedtime that early.  A couple of other things - possibly a little push in A time and trying mainly for 3 naps, not 4 at this age may help.  The other thing is not to allow a nap too early in the day on a regular basis as this in itself can encourage an early start.

Does your LO go to sleep independently?  Is she happy during NWs or needing a lot of help?

Offline ewabear

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Re: EW desperate
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2016, 08:27:01 am »
Hi, she does not fall asleep easly and needs a lot of help when NW. How can I do 3 naps when she sleeps 30-40 min naps. 1,5 happens once in two weeks maybe. I found it vety difficult as she is not rested and entertaining her inbetween is a nightmare. I have tottaly abandoned DD1. Today she slept 3x30 min and I just had enough and pu her to bed at 5:30. 4 hour easy is sooo not working at the moment as feeding overlaps naps and naps overlap feeds. Feeding before nap doesn't work as she keeps falling asleep.

Offline Scottishmummy

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Re: EW desperate
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2016, 15:48:03 pm »
Hi again

Sorry you're having such a hard time. It's so hard juggling feeds and naps with short nappers.

Posted in naps to suggest keeping all advice here to avoid confusion.

As Katherine says, could you try pushing A time a bit longer, at least for first nap at first. Even if you still get short naps, a later first nap might help with those EWs.  Do you get her up at 5.40 or stay in bed & try to resettle? I would count time before she gets up as half A time only, that might help push that first nap later.

If she's prone  to OT though, you probably want to push the first nap later very gradually - by about 10 mins every couple of days.
"Touchy/Spirited" DS


"Textbook" DD



Offline ewabear

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Re: EW desperate
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2016, 20:39:06 pm »
Ok, Unfortunately Im not getting anywhere. I have been putting her for a nap a bit later, Im also asked to cut the 4th nap. Well with 3 naps of 30 min how can I do it. By 1 pm she has already had 3 naps even with 45 min naps that is impossible. How can I then shift this whole thing 1 hour forward.

Offline ewabear

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Re: EW desperate
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2016, 10:06:49 am »
WU    5:15 tried to resettle but given up at 6
S.      7:30 didficult to settle
A.      8:05
S.      10:20 couldn't settle
A.      10:55
S.      13:00
A.      13:35
S.      15:45 took 20 min to settle
A.      16:15
BT.     17:55 but asleep at 18:40!?

Im running on fumes, I need advice.
After 2 months of shush patting Im still shush patting like there is no difference at all.

Offline Scottishmummy

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Re: EW desperate
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2016, 13:48:30 pm »
Huge hugs, you sound exhausted. I saw on Toddler sleep that your elder one is nap refusing now too. It's exhausting when you don't get much of a break.

Personally I would just focus on try to get that first nap later, even if you just put her down 10-15mibs later every couple of days until she's going for first nap around 8.30 or even 9.  If you got up st 6 & aim for 2hrs A time, I would try to keep her going for a nap closer to 8, if you can.  Hold for a couple of days then try for a 8.10 nap. Then 8.20 after another couple of days, hold a couple of days then  8.30

Then I wouldn't worry about getting to 3 naps yet, if she's short napping, you're right she needs 4 naps. She probably won't get to 3 naps until she's ready to take at least 1 long one.

Will she sleep anywhere else e.g. In car, buggy or sling? Doing that for one or two naps  could give you a break from sh-patting and possibly get a long nap...and get you all out the house

Xxxx
"Touchy/Spirited" DS


"Textbook" DD



Offline ewabear

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Re: EW desperate
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2016, 17:20:08 pm »
I have tried to make her sleep in her pram but she did not want to. DD1 was a tummy sleeper and never dlept in her pram, DD2 is more comfortable on her tummy too, I guess this makes it complicated. It is never guaranteed if she sleeps in the car, she may or she may not. Plus with DD1 sitting next to her it is not going to happen. Tonight i have tried to top her up at 8 pm so that will keep her not hungry until 10:30 and maybe NF will be later followed by WU. She has been waking up around 3,5 h so if she has early bed time... Maybe I'll manage to move her WU a bit.

Offline Scottishmummy

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Re: EW desperate
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2016, 10:59:45 am »
Fingers crossed for you xxx
"Touchy/Spirited" DS


"Textbook" DD



Offline ewabear

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Re: EW desperate
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2016, 10:58:20 am »
Hi, a success at last, but:

WU.  6:30
S.     8:45
A.     9:15
S.     11:30
A.     12:05
S.     14:20
A.     14:50
S.     17:00
A.     17:15. I woke her up
BT.    18:45. She had troubles with falling asleep
         19:15  Asleep

Now, how do I progress to next stage?
She really struggled with ladt nap and bed time. How can I progress to 3/2 in my case 4/3 with short naps?

Offline Scottishmummy

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Re: EW desperate
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2016, 19:25:03 pm »
Good news that you got a later wake up!

Struggling with last nap & BT suggests she's getting ready to drop it and is UT at BT when she has it.
To help her get there, I would try pushing your A times a little bit longer.
Do you think she could manage 2hrs30mins? Often 30min is OT but for some it can be UT and I think that might be the case for you. 

Also- if EWs creep back in, which they often do with transitions, try not to move first nap earlier. I think it helps to set a time for first nap and stick as close to it as possible.
"Touchy/Spirited" DS


"Textbook" DD



Offline ewabear

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Re: EW desperate
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2016, 11:36:28 am »
Hi, we are all over the place with WU. One day it can be 5:15 next day 6:30? She has 2:15-2:30 A time at the moment, but naps are rediculously short and I am struggling wit EASY especially feeding.
Set time for first nap is impossible as WU very different everyday. With longer A's we do not have time for 4 naps and 3 are not enough and she is soooo tired before BT and keeps waking up every every sleep cycle ( until df, not really df as she wakes up for it exactly 3h 45 min after last feed.
I need to try to extend her naps but nothing works. I tried W2S but it made no difference at all. I have been shush patying for 3 months with some but little success. When she wakes from nap she does not cry, instead she lifts her head and looks around, what does it mean?
« Last Edit: May 27, 2016, 12:50:51 pm by ewabear »

Offline Scottishmummy

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Re: EW desperate
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2016, 18:33:43 pm »
If she's not crying on waking from naps, it either means she either got enough sleep or had an UT nap.

Could you remind me how old she is now & also post your typical EASY (if it varies a lot post the last 3 days). I wonder whether there's anything we could tweak to get even 1 longer nap.
"Touchy/Spirited" DS


"Textbook" DD



Offline ewabear

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Re: EW desperate
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2016, 16:04:12 pm »
She is 5 months 1 week old.
Wu.   5:05 I picked her up and fed her in bed (AP I suppose)and she fell aslep for a bit
Wu.   6:15
S.      8:45
A.      9:15 sooo awake, unable to resettle
S.      11:45
A.      12:15 (awake at 12:45, woke up happy so it took me 45 min to resettle, I don't normally have
                    This sort of time, but we would not make it in the evening otherwise)
A.      13:40
S.      16:10
BT.     18:40 asleep actually at 19:15,


This last A seems to be different every day, sometimes 2h. As I said she wakes up from her naps and fors not cry, I tried W2S bit she still wakes up. I tried to go in immediately after she starts to stir but the same. I did not mention feeding qhich was all over the place due to that early morning feed. As her A's increased to 2:15-2:30 we are desperate now, waking anytime between 6-7 would make BT 5. I really don't think that 1,5-2 h is enough of sleep. You could say why not a 15 min cat nap, I also jave DD 2 that I almost don't have time for at all during the day and making BT after 7 pm for DD2 is not an option as DD 1 very tired by 7 ( doesn't sleep during the day😭) and I have to get her to bed ASAP. Husband does not come home until 8.
This resettling midday gave me a massive migrene so It was horrible day. Aren't we suppose to enjoy children? Well for me it's a struggle wvery day, a survival I could say.

Offline becj86

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Re: EW desperate
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2016, 23:46:44 pm »
Is LO going into bed awake? If not, perhaps put her into bed a bit more awake and settle her in the crib. Otherwise, I'd suggest being there at 25min into the nap and seeing if you can rest a hand on her or shush/pat through rather than resettling once she's woken.

If she's not crying on waking from naps, it either means she either got enough sleep or had an UT nap.
Or she's overstimulated - though that is more often 20min naps and its very hard to avoid this with a 2yo around ;)

Offline creations

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Re: EW desperate
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2016, 08:43:21 am »
Hi there
Really sorry to hear you've been having such a hard time - patting for months on end in a dark room, well that is utterly draining!
I am going to suggest something quite different, take it or leave it.

I have not seen anywhere here that your LO is an independent sleeper or not - does she go to sleep by self settling for naps/BT? (it does not matter if she needs additional help for NWs, I mean her usual way to fall asleep at her normal nap and BT)  Being able or unable to self settle can have a big impact on ability to stay asleep.  It would help greatly to know for sure.
Having said that...
...I feel that if she has the ability to SS a longer A time may help with increasing nap length (she may still need some training to teach her that she is supposed to sleep longer), but if she is not able to SS yet then a longer A time whilst you sleep train may also lead to greater success on the sleep training front (as clearly the 3 months of patting has not shown great progress).


My suggestion would be to move directly to a longer A time of 3hrs.  This A time is more suited to an older LO really but as your Lo is already doing 2hr 30 by feeling is she could be one of those who need longer...or the length will help you sleep train.  I would also suggest spending a few days focused on nap 1 where you are very serious about her going back to sleep, rather than purely soothing her you are telling her it is time to sleep and staying in the room for 30-45 mins to do so.
I know you have another child to care for, that makes it harder, any chance your older one would watch a movie at that time for a few days?  In the long run teaching your younger one to nap longer is going to free up more time for your older one anyway.  Depends what you think and if there is someone to mind your older one for that period of time really.

With the longer A and you showing/telling her to sleep longer your routine may look something like:
Wu 6
A 3
S 9 - 10.30
A 3
S 1.30 - 3
A 3hr (or a short A time and quick CN with a later BT giving 11 hr night which looks like you LO likes)
BT 6

Consider the worst that happens, that she still doesn't sleep more than 30 mins so your routine then looks like:
WU 6am
A 3hr
S 9 - 9.30
A 3hr
S 12.30 - 1
A 3hr
S 4 - 4.30
A 2hr 30
BT 7

I've seen a few LOs adapt really well to an older routine and personally feel if mum is struggling (who wouldn't struggle with all that patting? I imagine you are at the end of your tether!) it may be a faster route to a more settle routine.

I know this is quite different to general advice, something for you to have a think about.

Many hugs and luck whatever you decide xx


Offline ewabear

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Re: EW desperate
« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2016, 11:38:51 am »
Just a quick one: she has never fallen asleep on her own so no she is not an independent sleeper and I shush pat for naps, BT, NW.

Offline creations

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Re: EW desperate
« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2016, 11:45:41 am »
In that case I would suggest the increased A time routine and to reduce shush/pat at the same time aiming to have stopped patting before she finally nods off, it can be some stop-start on the patting starting up at fusses then stopping (or reducing then stopping) as she calms until eventually you have stopped prior to sleep. This will help to teacher her to self settle which should in turn help with the sleep transitions.  W2S on the sleep cycle transitions can also help to teach her to transition alone and to self settle, I know you've tried some W2S before but this would be on a much longer A time so the result can be quite different. Also I suggest the W2S method where you shush/pat through the transition, not the method where you disturb her.  if she does fully wake I'd spend a good amount of time (on that first nap at least, but not all naps for your own sanity) telling her to go back to sleep and using shush/pat for this.  When you 'work' on one nap per day it needs to be the same nap each day not different naps, so let's say always nap 1, as LOs build habits.  The combination of longer A time, W2S and sleep training should, I would hope, get you some results within a week - I'm not saying perfect but enough for you to see a way forward.
hugs x


Offline ewabear

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Re: EW desperate
« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2016, 10:07:02 am »
Thanks,this sounds interesting.
This is just an update on day 1:
I did put her to bed after 3 hours, she was not that bothered did not look tired. 25 min into her nap I started gently patting. She only made it into 40 th minute and then she lifted her head (she is a tummy sleeper)and started looking around, she looked fresh as a daisy. Shishing and patting seemed completely out of place. She did not want to sleep. I gave up 40 min later.
I also struggled with second nap, I decided to put her to bed at 2:40 as she looked a bit tired, but it took me 20 minutes, she got soooo upset that ended up weeping throuthout her nap and of vourse woke up after 30 min.
I only switched from 2,5 h yesterday?
I understand it is only a day one, but want to make sure that I do everything correctly.
We also struggled with entertainment, it is a long day for me. DD 1 has cold so is very neefy at the momwnt too😭

Offline creations

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Re: EW desperate
« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2016, 11:09:23 am »
IIWM I'd continue with the 3 hr A time for several days. An accumulated level of tiredness can actually work in your favour during sleep training (where as when on a good routine we'd want to avoid it preferably).
FWIW when Tracy was putting LOs onto a new routine she counted the A time from when the first nap was 'supposed' to end rather from when they actually woke up. This can mean a huge A time (counting that resettling time when they don't go back to sleep as they woke early plus the planned A time on top) and often LO is desperate for sleep by the time the next nap comes around.  Tracy also woke them when nap time was supposed to end even if they had only just been resettled to sleep so that the routine was established.  Often here on the forums we don't go all-out this way and often go slower but it is your choice.

As you are establishing a new routine, and sleep training I would not expect results immediately ...but hopefully you will see something over the next few days.


Offline Lindsay27

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Re: EW desperate
« Reply #20 on: May 30, 2016, 11:38:57 am »
We recently just bumped our A time to 3hrs, doing a capped morning nap, long mid-day nap, and late afternoon CN (we are in the 3-2).  After 3 days she got realllly OT but as Creations mentioned above it actually worked in our favour and eventually the 3rd night she just crashed and we got a 6:05am WU (usually 5:30am) and the day after we got a 7am WU and today it was 6:45...so definitely on the right track.  I would try to hold for a few days, reduce the 2nd A time if you need to (my DD was only doing 2.20-2.5hr A during the 2nd A time), and I think it will come together for you :)



Offline ewabear

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Re: EW desperate
« Reply #21 on: May 30, 2016, 12:28:19 pm »
Creations, how do I accomodate 4 hourly feeding if I start counting resettling time plus A or your first scenario?
Thanks for all that by the way 😊

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Re: EW desperate
« Reply #22 on: May 30, 2016, 17:34:18 pm »
Sometimes LOs go a little longer between E if they are sleeping but usually that would be more common for a LO around 6 months.  It is quite common at this age to need to fit feeds around naps and that it is not always a 'perfect' routine.  Here are a few what ifs:

- If her naps lengthened she may just sleep until 10.30 and then eat
- If her naps lengthened but she woke up at exactly 10 really hungry and this was a happening daily you could do a top up before prior to the nap which would be more like 3hr E.
- if she short naps from 9 to 9.30 you could spend just 30 mins trying to resettle instead of longer (we often suggest max of 45 min even if this is not the end of the nap time) and then feed at 10
- You can introduce a 'snack' even without seeing if her naps lengthen, it would take hunger out of the equation. So say around 7am even though she only ate 1hr before you can give a top up milk.  This means her next feed is due at 11am which is fine for either a 1.5hr or 2hr nap.  It also means your E times are on track for the next nap without doing an additional top up, as the next feed would be due 4 hrs later at 3pm right after nap 2.  The last feed would be less than 4hrs, just before BT.

I would say if she is on a really easy 4hr between E then the first option above (she will likely sleep and eat when she wakes) but if she is more towards the 3.5hr E then I'd do the last option above and put that little snack in there.  Don't forget in about 1.5 or so months from now you will be starting to introduce solids so she will then probably eat again 1hr after milk E anyway.  This means having a 6am milk and a 7am snack is not going to be a crisis.  Remember the idea with the E times being relatively set on an EASY routine is so that parents don't misinterpret crying thinking it is hunger when it is something else and so that feeding to sleep is avoided so no prop is formed.  Otherwise the E times really can be a bit flexible based on LOs needs and/or the current routine.
I hope this makes sense, you can choose whichever way forward you think sounds right for you and your LO.

I should also add that if sleep training involves a great deal of crying and calories used LO may be hungry earlier than the full E time.

Does this help?


Offline ewabear

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Re: EW desperate
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2016, 19:52:58 pm »
Hi, 2 weeks later we are back to square 1. In the last 2 weeks we battled with mastitis, cold, lots of sleepless nights. This is yesterday:
Wu.    5:45.     (Last night bed time 7)
S.       8:40
A.       9:10 unable to resettle
S.       11:20 fell asleep in the car, I find she can do max 2,5 hour A after long morning
A.       13:00 resettled
S.        15:30
A.         16:05
Bt.       18:30


This morning WU.   5:00am?????

Any advice?







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Re: EW desperate
« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2016, 08:48:03 am »
Hi there
Sorry to hear you've all had a tricky time over the past couple of weeks.
How old is your LO now? 6 months?

Looking at your EASY your LO is likely getting roughly enough sleep in hours but perhaps isn't getting the best quality sleep as there is 1 long nap and 2 short naps.  She would likely feel more refreshed with 2 long naps which are more restorative.
If you were on a 3hr A time a few weeks back it may be time now to increase a little on the first A time and really try to establish a longer nap there. Or if you increased the second A time this may encourage her to take a longer first nap.  I see that you've noted she can only do a max of 2.5hr second A time, mine was like that too needing a very long first A time and a shorter A time later in the day.  The other question would be whether she is taking a long nap because it is in the car (prop, the car motion helping her sleep) rather than anything to do with the times.
What do you think?

It also looks like her nights are 10.5 to 11hrs max, has this always been the case?  Mine always did 10.5/11 hr nights, the only time he did 12hrs or over was when he dropped a nap and that was only for a shortish phase of time whilst he settled into the new routine.  some LOs just don't do a longer night - the thing then is to make sure BT doesn't come too early as they can't be expected to sleep longer over night just because we consider 5am WU to be too early.  I always put mine to bed too early tbh and put up with the 5am WUs.  If I could go back I'd change that!


Offline ewabear

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Re: EW desperate
« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2016, 11:25:20 am »
 I don't think she is getting quality sleep at all as it takes her 20 min to (if) resettle. First nap is a problem as for some reason she does not want to resettle, just starts stretching and lifts her head very high and starts chatting to herself. Second nap is easier for some reason. I don't go anywhere by car when nap time aproaches apart from Monday and Wednesday when DD1 goes to occasional care for 3 hours which is tricky.
We have only just gone to 3 hours A as she was struggling when she was ill.
She is still unable to put herself to sleep and needs loads of help.
As per later BT Im not sure how it would work as DD1 goes to bed at at 7. My husband doesn't come home until 7:30.
To be honest 1 long nap and 2 short is a good day for us as very often she will just do 3 rubbish naps like today 2x30, 1x50 min. She will be 6 months on 23.06.

Offline Lindsay27

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Re: EW desperate
« Reply #26 on: June 13, 2016, 12:03:26 pm »
What we had to do was just kind of push to 3hrs and hold there.  For a few days we did a capped morning nap, long mid-day nap, then a CN to kind of get through the 3-2 transition and stop the EWs.  And now I pretty much make her first nap at 9am regardless if she has an EW so we don't perpetuate it.

So I would do a first A of 3hrs followed by a 1hr capped nap, then a 2.5/2.45 A followed by a long nap (resettle if necessary) then a 3hr A and a 20-30min CN.  I only had to do that for 2 days and the EW was gone and then I could start fresh with a good WU and a 2 nap day.

We just had to push to A to 3hrs no matter how OT she got.



Offline ewabear

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Re: EW desperate
« Reply #27 on: June 13, 2016, 12:53:19 pm »
This is kind of what we are doing at the moment. We are struggling with resettling  and if we manage 1 long nap ( after 25 min of resettling) we are lucky.
What was your BT like after so much A time would it be like 8?

Offline Lindsay27

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Re: EW desperate
« Reply #28 on: June 13, 2016, 14:30:45 pm »
We ended up with something like this:

WU 5:45am
Nap 8:45-9:45am (capped)
Nap 12:05-1:50pm (woke on her own)
Nap 4:35-5pm (capped)
BT 7pm

She an easily do a shorter A until bed without being UT.



Offline ewabear

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Re: EW desperate
« Reply #29 on: July 13, 2016, 13:15:41 pm »
Hi, I need a help again please. DD is 6 months 2 weeks old. We are still stfuggling with naps. Unfortunately I have been unable to stretch them. I have manages on few occasions (never the first one for some reason), but as she increased the time between naps to 3:15 it didn't seem right. 3x30 min naps sometimes 2x30 1x20 is just not enough sleep for such a little baby and I don't see how can I even start moving to 2 naps. Shall I just try to lengthen these short naps again? She is very ressistant, I tried to ho to her room 25 min into her nap and gently put my hand on her back, ahe wakes up anyway and gets upset. How long shall I do it for. I usually give up after 20 min and it's feeding time anyway. EW are not a problem anymore as she wakes up between 6-7. She is not an infependent sleeper and Im still fighting with her every nap. Our day today:
WU 7 and feed
S.    10:15
A.    10:50
E.     11
S.     13:50
A.     14:20
E.     15:00
S.     16:55
A.      17:15. I woke her up
BT.     7

She always wakes up for DF around 3 hours later (why).Recently she is also waking up 2 during the night, she used to wake up only once for her feed. She is EBF and on two solid meals a day.
A.   

Offline Lindsay27

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Re: EW desperate
« Reply #30 on: July 13, 2016, 13:46:08 pm »
Perhaps the 3.15hr A time is a bit too long?  Have you tried to scale back a bit a see what happens?  I am wondering if that first nap is OT.  My DD did a huge push in A times around 6 months, at one point she was doing 3.5hr, but now she's really scaled back for some reason and even getting to 3.15 is a challenge so sometimes we just do 3hrs.