Help with 2:1 transition please

[Mum2lucy]

Hi,

I am looking for advice. My lg is in the 2:1 transition and I don't know what way to go. She def prefers a long am and short pm nap. However she is beginning to refuse to take the pm nap even when I cap the am nap at 1.5hours. I've been reluctant to cap the nap any further as 1. I've worked so hard to get her to a point where she will take a decent nap and 2. There is no guarantee she'll sleep later.

I've read the 2:1 advice posts on her in fqa's but I'm still not sure what to do. Let her sleep and try 1 nap or cut am nap even more?
She is waking up at half 5am every morning which has been common for her from 8 months and the only way she'll settle back to sleep is for me to bf her. If she wakes after 6am (occasionally) I get up and start the day.
Yesterday easy was:
Nw 5.30 fed
Wu 6.00 as wouldn't go back to sleep after feed
A
S 10.05 - 11.40

Tried for second sleep in pram as she won't take ut nap in cot between 3.30-4.40 but she refused.
Bt 6.30

Woke this morning at 5.50, fed, then I woke her at 7.20.
 
If I do get a second nap, it's 30mins and then it pushes bt back.
Any ideas on the way forward? I'm just not sure whether to leave her trying one nap and she see how she gets on or if she's still to young and ot will build up

Thanks

[Scottishmummy]

Hi!
The 2-1 is really tricky, it takes a lot of juggling and trial and error and always results in some OT/UT.

A few questions- how old is your DD?
How long would she sleep at the first nap if you don't wake her?
Have you tried capping a second nap (when you get it) even further e.g. To 15 mins to try to avoid a later BT?
If she sleeps later in the morning, do you need to wake her at a certain time  (e.g. For a school run or similar) or can you leave her for some catch up sleep?

Given what you've said so far, my gut feeling would be to
1) go for as long a first nap as you can get, continue to try for 2nd in pram but if you can't get it, do an EBT
2) try to push first nap a bit later if you can..nut hard to do with EW.  You might need to try this on a day she's resettled after the feed

[Mum2lucy]

Thanks so much for your reply. I am grateful for your opinion!

Today I managed to get a second nap in the car.

Wu 7.20
A
S 11.10 - 12.40 (I woke her)
E
A
S 16.40 - 17.10
E
A
Bt 19.50

My lg is 10.5 months old.
I've not really been leaving her to sleep as I'm too nervous about her getting ot to bed. On the odd time I have she has slept around 2 hours. I do wonder if she is making up for waking up early though?

She is my first baby so I don't have any school runs. Only on a Friday I have commitment in the morning that means she doesn't get her usual routine. I tend to stay in for the morning as she prefers to sleep then and she doesn't do more than one sleep cycle when in the pram or car.

I could def try and cap the second nap if I get it. I do wonder if the second nap so near to bed (usually 2.5hours to bt from last nap) contributes to her waking around half 5?

[Scottishmummy]

I would agree that the last nap probably does contribute to the EWs...both have mine have done 5-5.30 starts when going through nap transitions.  Capping at 15-20 mins might help a bit, and avoid having to do a late BT too.  I'd suggest waking her no later than 5pm to get a 7.30 BT.

I'd agree not to shorten the first nap any further.  If she starts refusing the CN after a 1.5 hr nap frequently though, I'd try letting her sleep as long as she wants in the am and then doing EBT (maybe with a rest/quiet activities late afternoon too).  That way she'll get as much sleep as possible overall in the day.

I noticed that she was more likely to resettle from her EW if she didn't take a 2nd nap.  I'd try letting her sleep in until she wakes naturally in the morning if she does that, so she can catch up on sleep. That might also give you an easier one nap day.

You might find you get some 2 nap and some 1nap days for a while...and some OT too. It's inevitable with nap transitions.  She's young for 1 nap but some do transition early. How old was she when she went from 3-2 naps?

[Scottishmummy]

Meant to add...it sounds like she's evening out her sleep at the moment with around alternate 1 & 2 nap days (roughly).  If that's avoiding OT, stick with it..but as I suggested above, if the CN refusal goes for a couple of consecutive days, I'd let her sleep as long as she wants at the first nap.

Re- waking her in the morning- if you refer a consistent start time and she's still compensating by taking a CN, again stick with it.  If the CN does go, I'd let her take as much night sleep as she wants/needs too.

[Mum2lucy]

Hiya,

Thanks for your reply. My lg isn't well just now so naps have gone wonky anyways so that's why I hadn't replied sooner.

She was fine with the 3:2 but the transition did take a while to complete (which was fine). Think she was about 6.5 - 7 months when she completely went to 2 naps. She was a serial 40mins napper though so that's why she sometimes needed the third nap.

I don't mind an inconsistent wake up time. That's what I tend to have anyway as some days at 6am, some it's 6.30am etc. I let her do what she wants with morning Wu.

With her being ill, she's only been doing an hour or so in the morning and she has wanted a second sleep so I'll see what happens when she is fighting fit again 

[Scottishmummy]

Poor little thing, hope she feels better soon.

[Mum2lucy]

I'm back!!  Lg is better and I'm right in the thick of 2:1.

For the last three days lg won't take second sleep. No amount of car/pram/cot is getting her off. Yesterday I walked for an hour and drove half an hour and still no sleep!
I hadn't been pushing the first nap out as I had hoped to keep the Cn as long as possible.

The last two days have been:

Wu:6.45 and be
E: solids 8am
A
S 11.05 - 12.25

Refused pm sleep
Bt 6.40pm

Slept through the night until 6.50am

Wu 6.50 with bf
E: 8.10 solids
A:
S 11.10 - 12.30

Refused second sleep:
Bt 6.20pm

Nw: 8pm short cry settled fine, 9.20pm up for 30 mins screaming

Wu: 6am with bf
E: 7.45 solids
S: 10.20 but cried and I had to shhhhh to sleep (usually goes to sleep unaided)

She was obviously overtired. I don't know what to do... Just commit to pushing the first nap out a bit and hope for best or maybe give short am long pm a try? She shows no tired signs so I'm concerned I wouldn't know when to put her down in the afternoon. I know the morning A because it took me months of trial and error to get it! 

[Scottishmummy]

Hi

Ah the joys of the 2-1! I remember DS getting into a similar OT mess around this point too.  I think you have 2 options if she refuses a CN after a long sleep


1) Stick with long AM and do a super early bedtime (e.g. Around 5.30/6) and hope/see if she does a longer night to catch up and gradually try to increase first A time so nap is closer to 12 with less time afterwards until bed (but she'll need to catch up on some sleep first)

2) Switch to short AM, long pm amd do a super short first nap (e.g. Only 10-15 mins) earlier than your current long one (e.g. See if she'd sleep around 10) and then try putting her down around 3-3.5 hrs after she wakes from that.

The second option is what worked for my DS.  He got too OT when we tried one nap only, even with SEBT.
We used to do this:
Wu: 6am (he was and still is an early riser!)
Nap 1: 9.30-9.45
Nap 2: 1-2.30/3
BT:between 6.30&7

Every LO is different though & some won't go to sleep on a shorter A time, so it's working out which will suit your DD best

I saw you moved nap earlier when you got EW.  If you opt for 1 nap and SEBT, try to keep the nap around the same time each day (like a set nap). That can help to keep a routine with it too.

Have you checked out the 2-1 chat thread? There are a couple of people also going through the same thing.
Anyone want to talk about the 2-1 transition #27
 Xxx

[Mum2lucy]

Hey,

I have been trying to keep to the long am and try for short Cn or sebt. However now my morning nap has gone wrong. I've had two days of 40/45 mins naps on her usual 4hour 20mins morning A. I have no idea why it's gone wrong... Doesn't seem to be teething or anything else going on. So yesterday ended up 2 40 mins naps as she wouldn't sleep long in the afternoon either!! 
Any ideas? xx

[Mum2lucy]

Today's naps ended up:

Wu: 6.05am
A
S 10.15 - 10.59, woke up screaming so went in and managed to get her back to sleep 11.15-11.30. Wasn't going to continue to get her to resettle so got her up so total sleep was 55mins
E
A
S 15.37 - 16.12 - again woke screaming

I don't know what has happened as 40 min naps were a thing of the past

[Scottishmummy]

Oh no, sorry your naps have gone wrong. Sounds like she might have built up some OT :-(

Would you consider trying short am/long pm? It looks like she's OT on full first A time but taking a long enough nap to stop her taking a good 2nd one.

i'd try a slightly shorter A time as she's built up some OT, maybe 3.5-4hrs at the most? And cap the nap at 30 mins and see if you get a better 2nd nap.

What do you think?

[Mum2lucy]

I would and will try it today but it's just that I am more likely to go out in the afternoon and she won't sleep longer than one sleep cycle in her pram or car so I am concerned about those days as she would have very little day sleep. However if it was working I would just have to try and get out in the morning.

What A time would you suggest after a 30min sleep? As she has no tired signs until she is overtired, it's like taking a stab in the dark with A times. On a Friday I go out in the morning and she has had usually 20-30 mins in the pram on the way there and I have done 4 hours from waking and it has given me a good nap a few times but does that seem too long? Especially if she has built up ot? Worked out that she has prob lost about 5 hours sleep since Friday.

[Scottishmummy]

Hmm, hard to say....
I see from your first post that she used to do around 3hrs from 30min pm CN to bed, so I'd try starting with that and increase it if she's not settling or not taking a good 2nd nap after that A time.

That said she manages quite long A times so alternatively you could go for middle ground of 3hr30 and increase or decrease depending on how she seems?

[Mum2lucy]

Yesterday's easy was:

Wu: 6am
A
S 10am - 11.25 (cried a little going down but was ok on reduced 4hr A time)
E
A
S 4.07 - 4.37 (cried for 30mins when put down at 3.35. Ended up having to feed her to sleep she was in such a state)
Bt 7.45 (in bed 7.30, 15 mins to settle)

Emw: she's woken at 5.30am this morning and wouldn't go back to sleep 

I didn't get your post yesterday in time to do short am long pm and today I'm out in the afternoon so will need to do long am short pm

Hopefully the 5.30am was a once off? I've left her in her cot until 6.30am but she's not happy about it