Help with 2:1 transition please

[Mum2lucy]

Should I be trying to remedy this ot in any way I can or focus on trying to get a new routine in place even if that causes more OT? I mean she only slept 9hrs 45 mins at night last night which surely isn't enough. She normally does 11 hours xx

[Scottishmummy]

Should I be trying to remedy this ot in any way I can or focus on trying to get a new routine in place even if that causes more OT? I mean she only slept 9hrs 45 mins at night last night which surely isn't enough. She normally does 11 hours xx

Yes definitely.  Can you get her to do a much earlier bedtime if you get a 1 nap day? Or a shorter CN and if she does a 2 nap day in the hope she'll take more night sleep?

I really would try to switch to short am/long pm.  I know it feels like a gamble after so much time working on long am but it feels like the long am nap isn't working for her right now as it prevents much later sleep but OT is building up giving you earlier waking, then an earlier nap, then a longer day then more OT.

I think the change in routine might help with the OT too as it gets back to 2 naps with a good 2nd nap (hopefully).

[Mum2lucy]

Ok so she has woken st 5.30am again. What timings would you suggest for short am long pm?
Maybe

Wu 5.30
E
A
S 9.00 - 9.30
E
A
S 1.30 - 3.00 (hopefully)
E
A
S bt 6.30 maybe?

[Scottishmummy]

At 11mo, I'd try the morning nap at 9.30 to try to get out of the EW.
Do you think she needs close to 4hrs A to take a good 2nd nap? I think 1.30-3pm is a good timing of nap to aim for but if she needs close to 4hrs A to sleep then, you might need to cut 9.30 nap to only 15-20mins.

ETA: quick reply as we had a 5.30 wake up too *yawn*!
Xxx

[Mum2lucy]

Oh no poor you! Is that unusual for your household? hope so! Anything with a 5 in the clock isn't fun! Funny how much of a difference that 30mins from 5.30-6am feels. I can cope with 6am no probs 

ok I'll try those timings 9.30 and 1.30 and hope for the best. I'll prob do 20mins in the morning as I do think she needs about 4 hours to do a good nap (well she did before this OT hit!) xx

[Bella89]

HI there,
just wanted to jump in and say, that my DS was exactly as your LG. He preferred long AM nap and short PM nap.
I know you're trying something else right now, and obviously go for it if you feel it might be right for her, but just wanted to add, that you posted this before:

The last two days have been:

Wu:6.45 and be
E: solids 8am
A
S 11.05 - 12.25

Refused pm sleep
Bt 6.40pm

Slept through the night until 6.50am

Wu 6.50 with bf
E: 8.10 solids
A:
S 11.10 - 12.30

Refused second sleep:
Bt 6.20pm

Nw: 8pm short cry settled fine, 9.20pm up for 30 mins screaming

Wu: 6am with bf
E: 7.45 solids
S: 10.20 but cried and I had to shhhhh to sleep (usually goes to sleep unaided)

I think these 2 first days were ideal for you. Ultimately, with 2-1, you want to extend this first A time and go up to 12 o'clock, or 1 pm when she's older.
Notice how she started waking later when you extended A time.

I would suggest not waking her up in the morning or first nap.
Are you willing to try something like:
6.30 WU
11 nap#1 she will wake up 12:30-1
then try nap at 4:30 and WU at 5 or 5:15
BT 7

What do you think?

[Mum2lucy]

Hi bella!

Thanks for your input. She was doing well with the long am short pm but I've been really struggling for her to actually take the pm sleep. The pram had been working but then it seemed to stop. I prob would have continued on with the long am short pm even if I could have managed to get 10-20mins sleep out of her in the afternoon but after two days of her refusing the pm Cn, she has become overtired and is now waking at 5.30am and started doing 40mins in the morning.

I managed two bigger morning sleeps this week but I had to reduced the morning a back to 4 hours.
If I can get her back to the 6.15/6.30 normal wake up then I think I'll be more able to get a better routine in place.

If she slept 4.30-5pm, the problem is that she'd not go down at 7pm. It would be about 8pm - usually needs 3 hours from Cn to go to bed ok.

Today I did:
Wu 5.30
S 9.30 - 9.50 (went to sleep fine, short cry but asleep within 5 mins of being put in cot)
E
A
S 13.32 - 14.02, 14.10 - 15.35 (woke screaming, had to go in. APOP with dummy and back to sleep quickly and then resettled until I woke her at 15.35. I didn't know where to let her sleep on or not but it would have pushed bedtime back)

I am aiming for 7pm bedtime? x

[Mum2lucy]

Do you think the 30 mins waking at nap was OT? I thought maybe it was as she went back to sleep so quickly? I'm not sure though

[Bella89]

Someone once told me on this forum that 30min wake ups are OT while 40-45 min are UT.That always worked for us.

I know what you're saying about long am nap now. We hit that too with DS, but I just assumed we're on 1 nap and went with it:/ It wasn't an ideal way as it took him 1 week to adjust and move on. During that time I was extending his first A time and was putting him down at 6BT (despite my DH telling me I'm crazy, but hey, it worked:) So as you can see I'm not an expert. I was trying to go with his natural rhythm, because I knew long am nap was what he needed.

Yes, I would aim for 7pm bedtime if it was me

[Scottishmummy]

How did BT go? Fingers crossed for a good night and a later wake up.

I agree with Bella that 30min wu & screaming with it was probably OT, especially as she resettled fairly quickly afterwards. But as you said before she has sleep to catch up and she isn't used to a short am nap.

Personally, I would try short am/long pm for at least a couple more days and see how it goes.
If she's OT at 13.30 after 20 min nap, you could try an earlier 2nd nap e.g. 13.15 or even 13.00?

As Bella says, if short am/long pm doesn't work out for you,  you go back to long am once you get a later WU and try an earlier BT.

[Mum2lucy]

Hello!

I got a 7.05 bedtime and she was easy to get down. Quick bf, was getting sleepy so off of boob and into cot. She had a wee short cry (1 min maybe) then sleep for 7.05 so that was good.

I'm pleased with how today went. Felt like she had a decent sleep and could get her to bed at a reasonable time. Thanks for your help so far.

Bella - I was going with the natural flow of her long nap too. I think looking back I should have just pushed it back to get nearer to 12pm start but I was worried about her getting OT - but this happened anyway.

This might be a daft question but my lg doesn't sleep well out with her cot so I'm a bit concerned  If I follow short am long pm and have to go out in the afternoon, do you think I can switch it on those days to have long am short pm or will it be too confusing for her?

[Scottishmummy]

My DD is the same...after spending time in the early months teaching cot sleep, that's all she'll do!

I'd try to avoid changing her day around until the routine is established & would try to choose a routine that works and stick to it as much as possible. . I tried to organise our outings and activities around DS' naps as much as possible at this point to keep his routine as he needed that consistency. I remember going on a holiday during the 2-1 though and because of having stuff at different times & travelling he slept some long am naps then no pm or a tiny pm CN.  It gave him EW and some OT but we got back to normal when we got home. 

At the moment it looks like she won't take a CN with a long am nap, but you could try for one long am nap and an EBT if you have to go out in the afternoon, but it is possible it might give you EW or a bit of OT...but routines needs to have some flexibility to allow for real life and soon get back on track after a few days of consistency.

[Mum2lucy]

So she woke at 6.27am yay! It was 7.05 - 6.27!!! 

My question is what timings do I stick to when she wakes at a normal time?

Yesterday I did 4a to am sleep but that would push the day back later again for us.
Was thinking maybe stick to same timings as yesterday even though she woke an hour later? What do you think?

[Scottishmummy]

Hooray for later wake up & a great night sleep!

I'd give the same timings a go...you're only doing a CN at 9.30 so it doesn't matter if she's a bit UT for it as long as she'll go to sleep. I was surprised with my DS that he would settle for sleep at 9.30 during the 2-1, even if he'd showed no tired signs.

If she won't settle, you could try a slightly later CN (10?) but keep time for 2nd nap similar?

[Scottishmummy]

How is today going?