8 month old waking at 5am - throwing the whole day out!!

[AbbG]

My little guy is 8 months old tomorrow.

For the past few weeks he's had a few 5/5.30 wakeups, however of late this has become much more regular. The only time he doesnt do it is if he wakes sometime in the 4s and I feed him (BF) and he goes back to sleep.

When he wakes at 5 his day looks pretty much like this (or if he wakes at 5.30 it pushes out by 30 minutes)...
Sleep 8-9
Sleep 12-1
Sleep 4 - 4.30 (generally in the baby carrier or he tends to refuse it)
Asleep for night around 7.30

He's on 3 solid meals and generally has breastfeeds at 5.30, 10, 2.30 and 6.30, plus 1 overnight.

His wake up time used to depend on when his night time feed fell, however in the past week i fed him at 10, 11, 12 and 12.30 and all resulted in a 5 or 5.30 wake.

In the past I was able to leave him in his cot until 6 or 6.30 (depending on wake time) and he may snooze a little, these days he makes a lot of noise until I get him up and generally wants to be fed right away.

yesterday he woke at 4.45 and i quickly fed him, and put him back down and he went back to sleep until 7.10 and his day looked more like

Wake 7.10
Sleep 9.40 to 10.20 (undertired i suspect)
Sleep 1.20 to 3.30
Asleep for the night around 7.10

So, when he wakes early he has close to 12.5 hours sleep for the day, and when he wakes at 7am he has around 15 hours sleep. either way he is generally quite a happy little boy and rarely seems really tired (however there was one sign of overtired last week, his night waking moved to 9.30ish and he couldn't be settled without a feed).

Today's sleeps -
Wake 5
Asleep 7.55 to 9.05 (tiny wake - rollover - at 30 minutes)
Asleep 12.00 to 1.00 (cried out at 30 minutes)
Asleep 3.45 to TBA (tiny wake - rollover - at 30 minutes)

I'd love to break this 5am wake up... I really need that extra couple of hours of sleep!!

Any ideas? would wake to sleep help do you think?

[becj86]

His A time at this age should be more up around 3.5hr, so if you were to push his first nap back a lot, he may start sleeping later in the morning. 

W2S isn't going to fix what is essentially a routine issue. In the EASY FAQs link, there are some routine examples for various ages you could look at for ideas. Basically at this age, you're looking at baby being up for around 3.5hr then sleeping 1.5hr with an 11hr night.

My suggestion would be to increase that morning A time to 3.5hr and hold for a few days then push nap later until WU gets later.

[AbbG]

thanks for your response.

Before i bump the awake time can I check a few things with you?

I was under the impression that perhaps he needed a little less awake time on a day where he woke early due to the short naps. I came to this conclusion based upon his naps being longer based on the same awake time when he wakes later in the morning. Also, this afternoon I had to put him down at 2.45 as he was really tired, rubbing eyes, sooky etc. This nap went from 3.45 to 5.15.

Also, Ive had a look at the awake time tables and it says 3-4 hours at 8-10 months. If 8 months should be 3.5 hours awake time, what are we by 10 months? and does that mean he'd move to 1 nap pretty early?

Finally, a few times in the past week we did move this A time out a bit (by accident), the generally resulted in a 30 minute nap... does that mean he's not ready for it?

Thanks heaps for your help!

[AbbG]

After that big arvo sleep I put him down 8ish.
Was a really weird night. He pretty well woke every hour on the half hour from 8.30. I helped him resettle at 9.30 and fed at 11.30 but apart from that he managed to resettle on his own after either a few or maybe 5-10 minutes of crying.
He's just resettled at 4.55 and cried out at again quite a few times since. Was a tough night for him I think. Hopefully a one off.... he ended up waking fully at 6.38.

[becj86]

Ok, so average at 6 months is 2:45 to 3hr - this is when the 3-2 nap transition happens, typically. All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months

3hr is very much the low end of A time at 8 months, generally reflecting a routine that hasn't changed at all since around 6 months.

Really, you're aiming for 1.5hr at least for a good nap. The short nights will be making him OT but if you don't increase the A times and get the naps to a restorative length, he'll just get chronically OT and still take UT naps.

General rule of thumb wrt nap lengths:
20min - OS
30min - OT (though these are easiest to resettle and can happen for a day or two after increasing A time just because baby is used to a shorter A time)
40min - UT (naps of 1hr, 1:15 are also mainly UT in babies this age, they suggest baby was nearly tired enough but not quite, to sleep two sleep cycles)

Waking within 3hr of BT usually means he's OT at BT. That can be from a number of things - not enough day sleep, day sleep enough but too many short naps so not sufficiently restorative are usually the main candidates. Teething discomfort can also do this.

Any medical conditions? Was he premature? At what age did he go to 2hr A time? Just trying to get an idea as to whether he is high sleep needs. From what I'm seeing - 1hr naps and WU getting earlier - both of these suggest that he needs at least the first A time increased.

[AbbG]

Thanks heaps for that.

I've been through this before with my first son so kinda have the basics so are really keen to understand the why along the way too (I'm pretty sure you helped me with my first son at 6 months back in 2013!). That's does make sense too, so thanks.

I think he moved to 2 hours of awake time from just over 4 months and from memory to 3 hours awake time early April (so around 6.5 months). Only recently moved him to 3 hours awake time first thing in the morning when he started waking at 5... And I really only used the 3 hours after an early waking.

& no medical conditions, he was born at 38 weeks at 7pd 5oz.

So, in terms of a 3.5 hour A time we'd be looking at something like

Wake 7
Sleep 1 - 10.30 to 12.00
Sleep 2 - 3.30 to 5
Bedtime 8.30???

Or, so I try to cap the morning nap at 1 hour?

I had a look at the sample 8 month routines and many weren't yet at 3.5 hours awake time so id be keen to get your view on the tough routine.

Thanks again so much!

[becj86]

Look, you could go to 3:15 and see if that makes a difference before jumping to 3:30 - I'm just a bite the bullet kind of person because when people dither and increase A time by 5 minutes every 5-6 days, they inevitably end up in an horrendous OT/UT cycle and it gets worse and worse the more you avoid the 30min OT waking from naps resulting in non-restorative UT naps, the more you can't extend A times and the worse the night gets as well, yk? 

I think the routine you posted looks fine, before you start capping one nap, yes, the day is long and the night just under 11hr - that's usually the sign to start capping a nap.

Wake 7Sleep 1 - 10.30 to 12.00Sleep 2 - 3.30 to 5Bedtime 8.30???

Well, yes, if he wakes at 7... At the moment, you're trying to get him to sleep later by pushing that first A time. The first one should always be the first one to be pushed IMHO, especially with all these signs pointing to too-short first A.

If he's waking at 5 though, you're looking at BT of 6:30 which you might sustain for several days until his body works out he's awake longer in the AM so he needs to take his sleep in the night rather than banking on a sleep early in the day. Eventually, as he sleeps later, he might sleep til 5:15 or 5:30 and shift BT a bit later to 7 and so on, then once you've got WU where you want it, you can look at reducing one of the naps, whichever suits your family best, really. Typically on caps the second nap as then if the first nap goes to pot, you've got another chance with the second - you're not putting all your long-nap eggs in one basket.

[AbbG]

Okay thanks.

He generally favors that second nap, thus I was thinking about capping the first. But perhaps it seems he's favored when maybe it was just due to UT.

Like I corrected above, we did get a later wake time this morning, however it was broken by many wake ups in the early morning, this may be why he was extra sooky this morning, so I wasn't able to push awake time at all, and only had 2.35, resulting in a 1 hour nap, therefore i put him down right on 3 hours for his second nap.... I am keen to extend those A times, it's just hard when the little guy has another idea!

We're kinda at 2 different awake times, 2.30 when waking from 6.30 and 3 hours when waking before 6.30. It's a funny one, but pushing the 2.30 one too far seems to result in an OT nap! This sounds a bit weird doesn't it?!
So, do I leave the 3 hour one as is and settle the other at 3 hours and then push past 3 hours for all wake ups?

[becj86]

Like I corrected above, we did get a later wake time this morning, however it was broken by many wake ups in the early morning

Yes, this frequent waking in the early hours s also a sign that first A time needs a push, so I'd carry on with that.

If you want to go softly softly with it, at a minimum, I'd stick to 3hr A time minimum, regardless of WU time. Be ready to resettle the 30min OT WU from nap - really, we cannot tweak to find a longer term routine that works until we have a baseline and to get a baseline, you need to be consistent.

I would probably say at this point I'd be going for at least 3:15 minimum (that really does allow for most HSN babies at this age, TBH), especially for the first A time. If you can get that first nap to be a good one, it often helps more than you think it will.

Whichever you choose, stick with it for 3-4 days and we can re-evaluate then, as his body will have had a chance to self-regulate in the presence of a consistent approach and we'll have a better idea of what he needs.

[AbbG]

Awesome. That's really helpful, thanks again!

We're going away for the weekend so I'll start now with trying the get that first A time stabilized at 3 hours and hopefully start to stretch it next week... I did manage to go from 2.30 to 3 the next day quite easily (that one I knew was well overdue but I needed to hold onto 3 naps for a holiday where I knew he'd find it hard to take long naps) so fingers crossed this is a similar case.

Sorry, can I ask one more question? I'd been told by a sleep consultant that often the first A time needs to be a bit shorter, have you any knowledge / experience of this? This is partially why I'd kept the A time for this one at 2.30/3 hours.

Thanks heaps for your patience!

[becj86]

I'd been told by a sleep consultant that often the first A time needs to be a bit shorter, have you any knowledge / experience of this?

Its interesting, in my 4.5 years on BW, I've heard this idea quoted probably 10 times (with no evidence) and in practice, I've seen it work once. FWIW, my own son did the reverse of the 2-3-4 routine with 4-3-2 and that worked much better for him. I think a lot of babies *seem* to need a shorter first A if they have a short night which is probably more culturally 'normal', with BT at say 9pm, so in effect they have a shorter first A time and extend their night with that early nap.

To me, it makes logical sense (again, no evidence beyond experience and a bit of logic having seen routines on BW for 4+yrs) that a baby is able to stay awake a certain length of time, surely following the longest stretch of sleep they get (at night) they have the best chance of staying awake that long. It makes sense to me that if we're allowing LO's body to take the sleep they need when they need it and we have a short A time first up, their body isn't going to feel the need to get good quality sleep at night, which I believe is precisely why we see a lot of people with nap and night sleep troubles because they have that shorter A time first up - baby wakes earlier and earlier in the AM or has long happy NWs, eg. chatting and singing from 3-4:30am and is then plagued with short naps all day. Eventually this leads to chronic OT and poor baby struggles to get to sleep for night or nap.

[AbbG]

All good points, thanks.

I'm in a slept training FB group and they often refer to the 2,3,4.... and like i said a sleep consultant suggested this too - but your explanation makes the most sense to me - again thanks for taking the time to set that out.

this little guy actually had a longer A time first up from around 3.5 to 5 months, he was doing 2 hours first up and 1.5 hours (roughly) after that. Didnt help with the cat napping till i moved him to 2 hour awake time all around at 4 months though.

The little fella has actually caught his first cold, so now's not the right time to push him too hard, however this morning he woke at 6.45 (after coming to bed with us as he was really sooky from around 4am and couldn't settle back to sleep) and as I took him to the doctors this morning he didn't go to sleep till 10am, he slept for 1 hour 20 minutes! put him down at 3 hours for 2nd nap however as he just seemed so tired.. 50 minutes in now.

anyway, thanks again... will keep you posted.

[becj86]

Awesome Stick with that 3:15 and see how he goes - nap may extend or stay what is a 'signal' length - time to increase a bit. If you're rolling along on 1.5hr naps and they shrink to 1:20 or 1:15, its time to increase again. Its usually the first sign and we often miss it if we're not looking for it

[AbbG]

BecJ... I have good and bad news!

The good news is we have settled on 3 hours 15 minutes  A time before first sleep and 3 hours before second sleep. This is resulting in great sleeps, yesterday he had 1.5 hours in am and nearly 2 pm (and I had to wake him as it was just after 4.30). Also had to wake him the day before but the 2 before that he woke about 4/4.30. I then do around 3 hours awake time before bed time and he's asleep within seconds - in fact, he's asleep within second for day sleeps too.

Here's the problem though... I just can't get him to stretch out night feeds.

2 nights ago (Tuesday night)  he fed at 6.44pm and then woke for a feed just before midnight (just over 5 hours later), then he woke at 5.20am (and he tried really hard to go back to sleep, I was watching him on the monitor.) as I was keen for extra sleep I brought him into bed with me, he screamed and I fed him 1 side and he then slept till 7am when DS1 came in.
Routine this day was
Awake 7.05
Asleep 10.20 to 12.00
Asleep 3.00 to 4.40
Asleep from 7.30

Last night (weds night) I fed him at 7.05pm and he woke about 10.30pm (not even 3.5 hours later), I fed him bothe sides and then he woke 2.45 (4 hours later), and then he stirred a bit from 5 but was awake from 7 (4 hours again).
Yesterday's routine was basically
Wake 6.55
Sleep 10.10 to 11.40
Sleep 2.40 to 4.35 (woke him up)
Asleep 7.30

On Tuesday I also moved him to 3 feeds a day, so roughly
7am feed
8.30 breakfast
12 lunch
2.30 feed
4.30 (or when wakes) snack
5.30 dinner
6.45/7.00 feed
7.30 bed

What I have noticed is that he self settles really well for all sleeps where he goes to sleep easily, maybe he finds it harder to resettle at night so he screams out for me?
Monday night (fed 6.30pm, 11.40pm and 3.50 - he woke around 1 hour earlier)  I tried to offer water and resettle without a feed, but after 1 hour I gave up and fed him. He was asleep within minutes (as he always is after a feed - even though I'm sure to put him down awake, and once a night I change his nappy after the feed before putting him down).

Monday we came back from a weekend away (where his day sleep was awesome and nights got worse and worse) so I could put that down to only sleeping in the car that day perhaps, Tuesday was better but for the early waking (but maybe I should have left him) and Wednesday night was crappy, not sure why? Too much arvo sleep maybe? But I would have thought the 7.30 bed time makes up for that?

Sorry about the massive post - this little guy does my head in... I'm not far off booking him into sleep school, but was hoping you might have an idea what's going on before I do?

Thanks in advance!

[becj86]

How much milk is he taking at those feeds? Why did you drop a feed? Milk should still be his main source of calories, and I think if you can get more milk into your day, he may wake for less feeds in the night.

Milk intake - what you can expect between 6 months to 12months +
Sample routines for dropping bottles (daytime core hours only)

How long had he had offerings of solids in the evening? He could be waking with some gut discomfort (not pain, just the sensation of digestion is sometimes new and wakes them).

How much milk is he taking at night? Could you reduce those and increase the daytime bottles?