Author Topic: 13 months and EW's due to OT (Read 3032 times)

zissi · « **on:** May 17, 2016, 14:46:38 pm »

I have posted a few times about my lo's nw's. They don't seem to get better. We went to 1 nap when she was 10 months. It was probably a bit too early but she had s long a time and the second nap was difficult to fit in. And she woke for a long nw of 1-2 hrs chatting when we were in 2 naps. So now she has an a time of about 5 or 5.5 hrs and naps then for around 2 hrs.. We try to have bt max 5 hrs after this but often it takes her a long time to settle and by the time she sleeps she is even more ot. We have done early bt at 6pm but still same nw's. She pretty much wakes every sleep cycle and sonetimes she settles herself. But the later in the night the more difficult it becomes. For about 2 weeks she isn't being fed anymore at night and she falls asleep independently for naps and bt with a bit of patting and wi/wo. Since she is crawling she is much more tired and would fall asleep in the car after 4 hours a time. So I wonder if I should go back to that abd try a mini cn in the evening. It has been tried before with no difference with regards to nw's but maybe we haven't tried consistent enough. She will start day care in 3 weeks and there they only put babies for a nap at 11.30, so that's around 5 hrs after her wake up time. These nw's have been going on since she is 8 months, it can't be always developmental or teething right? We are both exhausted! Any ideas ladies?

ginger428 · « **Reply #1 on:** May 17, 2016, 17:13:37 pm »

What a cute avatar!

So sorry to hear about the nws! You must be spent!

Can you post your EAS? And what time is she closing her eyes at night?

With a 2hr nap at 11:30, she'll wake around 1:30, and 5 hrs later would be 6:30. Is that her current bt? With a 11:30 nap, we were still doing 10-15min cn around 5pm, to get to 7:00 bedtime. It may be worth a try before she starts day care?

zissi · « **Reply #2 on:** May 17, 2016, 18:37:32 pm »

thanks for your reply.
our easy over the last few weeks was something like this:
wu 6am
nap 11.30-1.30 /2pm since recently she wakes after an hour or so but is easily resettled. I suspect OT
BT 6.30 but often doesn't fall asleep before 7 or 7.15pm, chatting, standing up or getting distressed...
she is breastfed, during the weekend feeds quite a bit, every 3 hrs or so or when upset, during the week when I work she only feeds mornings, when I come home and BT. she eats solids quite well since Im not there to feed her anymore.
actually today my husband went shopping and she fell asleep on the way back after an A time of 4 hrs, he transferred her into the cot and she napped for 2 hrs 20 mins without wakening in between. so it seems her A time is 4 hrs again. she had a second nap after 3.5hrs and we woke her after 20 mins. (the nap happened in the skin though, not sure if she would have gone down for it otherwise so well) BT 6.50, asleep by 6.55.
since this day worked so well I will be aiming for this tomorrow again, I mean my husband will be

lets see what the night brings...

ginger428 · « **Reply #3 on:** May 17, 2016, 18:41:14 pm »

Sounds like a great catch up nap from OT. Let me know how the night goes!

Funny about the husband comment.

zissi · « **Reply #4 on:** May 19, 2016, 18:32:45 pm »

hey there, so the night was pretty bad. waking every 90 mins or so, easy to resettle. but then around 3 she wouldn't go back down and DH took over and got her down eventually.
yesterday and today we tried for a second nap around 4 hrs after the first, did not work. she wouldn't sleep. so early BT, took ages to settle her but last night was actually really good. 1 short NW. so weird, I thought we would have the night from hell after a 6 hrs A time till BT but no. not sure if it was coincidence or what. it looks like that second nap won't happen unless we are out and about and she is in the sling falling asleep... in this case I continue with early BT right?

ENMS · « **Reply #5 on:** May 20, 2016, 01:26:58 am »

Have you tried short AM / long PM naps? I think that is what works best when LO's refuse the PM nap during the 2-1. I hate waking her up so I usually make the AM nap a car or stroller nap and then she gets a long PM nap in her crib.

The long PM nap may help her be less OTby BT?

zissi · « **Reply #6 on:** May 21, 2016, 20:06:39 pm »

yes we tried the short AM nap and long PM, problem is that LO always needs so much A time, so second nap would be very late and as a result would push BT out really late too. like today, even with a 20 mins CN LO didn't fall asleep for 50 mins... will keep trying for a really short CN or else early BT.

ENMS · « **Reply #7 on:** May 22, 2016, 11:09:53 am »

Oh that sucks sorry

How long of an A are you using after a short CN?

She's a tough one to figure out. How have the last few nights been?

ginger428 · « **Reply #8 on:** May 30, 2016, 01:14:38 am »

We were on short pm nap (apop'd) or early bt for a while around 11 mo. It seems like the 6A allowed her to be tired enough for bed. But who knows right? We also went down to 10 min for the pm nap. Even with the cn, bedtime was only about 1.5-2 hrs after.

How were the past few days?

zissi · « **Reply #9 on:** June 10, 2016, 18:26:04 pm »

nothing seems to be working for us. the second nap works maybe 1 in 10 times with AP when out and about but I cant always be out and about. today LO only napped 1.5 hrs (usually 2.5), so I decided to go for early BT at 6pm. totally didn't work. she is still up as Im writing this, at 7.30pm. so early BT only backfires. it seems that she cannot do more than 11 hrs of sleep at night and then max 3 hrs naps, more often than not 2-2.5 hrs. she means she is getting too little sleep in 24 hrs but I don't know how to fix it. often we get nasty early wakings too, like at 5, we have excepted a wU of 6am now, it used to be 7. she is in day care now, so their main long nap is around 11 and thats what we always did at home too, so the short A nap and long PM is not an option. I wonder when she will finally grow out of this. for the last 6 weeks there are no night feeds anymore so she doesn't wake at night due to a feeding prob. she can settle herself completely by herself. she just seems to keep wakening because of OT. any other ideas??

ginger428 · « **Reply #10 on:** June 14, 2016, 03:27:54 am »

So sorry for the delay...

Could you post her routine again in EAS format? It must be so hard for you lately.. Any reprieve or help so that you can catch up on sleep?

The 2-1 transition is really tough... And one of the longest for some lo's. And yes, I hear you about the apop'ing for the pm catnap. It was such a pain to go driving around 5pm every night to get a 15min Catnap. It lasted a few months unfortunately.

Are you able to peruse the 2-1 support thread for support? I bet you've also seen the 2-1 article but here it is again for your reference.

From 2 to 1 nap transition (10-12m and older)

Again, if you could post your Eas again. Thanks

zissi · « **Reply #11 on:** June 26, 2016, 17:21:40 pm »

thanks for your reply. our eas is like the following:
wu 5.30
feed
breakfast
10 am snack
10.30-11am nap till 12.30 or 1pm usually, sometimes longer like 2. 20 mins other times 1.5 hrs
BT 6.30, often doesn't fall asleep for like 45 mins.

I have tried a few times BT at 6am but bare once it completely backfired and she only went down around 7pm. I know her early wake ups and NW's are linked to being OT by BT but early BT unfortunately doesn't work.
I have tried to have the nap later so the A time to BT isn't as long but then she does an OT nap which is shorter then...

so what can I do or do I just have to wait till she is actually read for 1 nap?

ginger428 · « **Reply #12 on:** June 27, 2016, 10:35:47 am »

I think you really are doing the best you can. A lot of hugs as I know this stage is grueling.
The only other thing I can think of is to do a 11am nap whenever possible to push her day later by 15-30 min. And even on 5:30 wake up days, try to push that 10:30 later, 10-15 min at a time to eventually get to 11:30. It could be that the nap is too early for her and like you said, she's onlly doing 11 hr nights. I know you've already tried a later nap time that gives OT short naps, but it will take several days to adjust. Sometimes OT naps are easier to resettle, too and for the sake of her routine, I would help her if possible. Remind me again if you've tried to resettle her at wake up?

zissi · « **Reply #13 on:** June 27, 2016, 19:54:23 pm »

I will try that, pushing the nap out and see how it goes. its worth a shot! Thanks again...

ginger428 · « **Reply #14 on:** June 28, 2016, 02:15:53 am »

No problem... let us know how it goes! xo

~*Nicole*~ · « **Reply #15 on:** June 28, 2016, 13:42:48 pm »

popping on quickly and haven't read through completely properly but when I glanced at this:

thanks for your reply. our eas is like the following:
wu 5.30
feed
breakfast
10 am snack
10.30-11am nap till 12.30 or 1pm usually, sometimes longer like 2. 20 mins other times 1.5 hrs
BT 6.30, often doesn't fall asleep for like 45 mins.

I have tried a few times BT at 6am but bare once it completely backfired and she only went down around 7pm. I know her early wake ups and NW's are linked to being OT by BT but early BT unfortunately doesn't work.
I have tried to have the nap later so the A time to BT isn't as long but then she does an OT nap which is shorter then...

I wondered if you'd tried a super early bedtime, like 5:30 actually. I have done this with DD2 when she's tired from either waking super early or having only one nap or accumulated OT from being out and about and she's slept straight through til morning.

The other thing that sticks out to me is that you mentioned she has fallen asleep in the car after 4 hours A time and I do wonder if she's not quite ready for the one nap and is OT from the NWs but some of that has become a habit of waking up and looking for help settling in some way? Especially in the early morning it's hard to fall back to sleep when you are OT but feel like you've had a decent chunk of sleep. I might try to do car/stroller/sling catnaps in the morning if that is possible and maybe stick to the same time afternoon nap and the same time BT in order to make those timings more of a habit since she seems to be tricky with needing a certain amount of A time and needing to feel a certain amount of sleepy before she can actually fall asleep. My oldest was this way. Very resistant to falling asleep, needing less sleep than my other two, dropping naps earlier and needing to feel properly exhausted before she could fall asleep. It was quite a balancing act with her. The other two slept more consistently and were quite as tough and my DS still naps at daycare at 5 years old (DD1 tried not napping after she turned 2 so that was a shock for me).

Sorry I am rambling a bit. Best of luck! This is such a tricky age!

zissi · « **Reply #16 on:** June 29, 2016, 20:26:11 pm »

hi there,
thanks for your suggestions. unfortunately DD2 is at daycare, so they can't APOP any naps. the usual time for a nap there is around 11, 11.30, so I have to go with that. I have another child, so driving around for naps won't work and DD2 doesn't nap in the stroller either. but I will try BT at 5.30 and see if that would help. at least at weekends, because during the week we are only home from daycare around 5pm.
the reason we moved to 1 nap early at 10 months was that DD2 would wake in the middle of the night and be up for hours. I figured that was OT and since she can handle long A times very well it wasn't a problem to move to 1 nap. obviously all those short wakings are OT now, so I think she is def between 2 chairs there...

zissi · « **Reply #17 on:** July 02, 2016, 10:31:28 am »

ok so for the last 2 days we have tried super early BT, I had her in bed at 5.45pm, the earliest I can do. while she settled better than usual, within 10/15 mins instead of 30/45 mins she had the first night a long NW of 40 mins and this morning she was up at 4.30. I think I mentioned before that she only ever does 10/11 hrs at night. so I don't know if that sort of early BT can work for us. I certainly can't have her up at 4.30am. but I will give this new routine another couple of days to see if it will make a difference. after that I really don't know anymore. and today she woke for her nap after 45 mins, DH is still trying to settle her. she was in bed at 10am, but only fell asleep at 10.20. its so difficult to know what to do with her. DD1 was on set naps and BT at this age but with her wake ups and different durations of naps I don't know if its a runner with her? worth a try?

ginger428 · « **Reply #18 on:** July 04, 2016, 01:38:58 am »

Hugs Franziska! 4:30 is rough! You must be exhausted. I bet you tried to resettle her? How?

TBH, with an EW of 4:30, I would apop or support however until 6:00, then expose her to light. Totally use your judgment with these, but a 10 min CN around 9:00 may help. Then put her down for a proper nap around 11:00. The goal is to get her to 11:00/11:30 consistently without accumulating more OT.

I know it must be extremely difficult to handle apop CN's with another child.. I can't imagine! however, it (morning or evening CN) may be your saving grace during this transition. If not at all possible, it's ok. If there are opportunities to do so, it may help.

I'm sorry to hear that the EBT isn't working completely for her. It may be worth a couple more days to see if she can tack on sleep in the morning. I agree with what Nicole said, such a tricky stage! Independent sleep is when you can put her down awake, leave, she falls asleep, and does not need you to return for any support. If this isn't the case, then we can also work toward giving her opportunities to self settle.

Keep us posted!

~*Nicole*~ · « **Reply #19 on:** July 04, 2016, 12:10:35 pm »

I'm also sorry about those super early wake ups! I know how tiring that is!

This is such a tough age. I remember my DD being very much like this. She needed a long A to be tired enough to nap and then there weren't enough hours in the day and she'd resist and then get OT and the early wake ups would start up. Then she'd be so tired she'd take two naps and then bedtime would be really late and the nights would be short because she got too much daytime sleep. And on and on.

I don't truly remember what I did exactly. I'd have to look it up hehe. I think I may have had a period of time where I just planned to alternate 2 nap and 1 nap days. I think the 2 nap days would have one long nap in a crib and one APOP nap in the car. I think I just ran an errand or drove a longer way home from daycare or whatever. Then bedtime and wake up next morning would be later so she could take just one nap at a reasonable time the following day. This may have helped us get over the hump but I could also be remembering things incorrectly. I'll see if I can find any of my old info. LOL

zissi · « **Reply #20 on:** July 07, 2016, 20:18:15 pm »

ok so over the last week we nearly had all days EBT of 6pm BUT one thing is really weird, when asleep so early she would wake 30mins after BT and then every hour or so. and when we did normal BT at 7pm for many weeks before that she never had those wakings in the first few hours after BT. so I wonder if this really early BT makes sense in our case. I thought it would be a good idea to keep the day max 12 hrs but it totally backfires. today I tried to have her in early, but it didn't work out, she didn't settle, so eventually fell asleep at 7pm and she sleeps wonderfully at the moment without wakening. she stirred at 45 mins but settled herself. so I am wondering if this 6pm BT really isn't for her. any ideas?
her day today was like this:
wake up 5ish
nap 10am-12.45 (in daycare)
in bed 6.15, asleep 7pm.

day before:
wake up 5.30
nap 11-1.15pm(in daycare)
BT 6pm
many many NW's and awake for the day at 5ish, I must add she has a cold, so doesn't feel too well...

~*Nicole*~ · « **Reply #21 on:** July 08, 2016, 16:37:53 pm »

If it's not working for her, then maybe sticking with set bedtime is the better option for her. Have her nap times been changing each day. I see one day she napped at 10 and the day before at 11. Do you know if she is sleeping straight through those naps at daycare or if she's waking at all and being resettled or resettling herself? Sometimes that can help you decide if she's OT or UT and see what is going on.

Also, I meant to ask, but totally forgot; Does she have her molars and canines yet? Is she teething at all? When you said she had a cold, it reminded me that those teeth are often trying to push trough around this age as well and that can sometimes cause a lot of trouble. My DD2 was a fantastic teether for the first two on the bottom and on the top, but then she started cutting her molars. Totally different experience. She's super cranky and irritable and has been waking some nights looking for some comfort. I gave her ibuprofen one day and you could see her become much happier about 20 mins. later after it kicked in. Just a thought.

zissi · « **Reply #22 on:** July 08, 2016, 20:21:33 pm »

yes, we don't have set nap times, I usually go for 5 or 5.5hrs after wake up and tell them this in daycare and they usually put her down at the time I ask them too (but they cannot do multiple naps etc) she often wakes in between her naps and needs a little resettling, usually only lying her back down. its the same at home. I figured that around 1.20 or so is OT for her whereas 45 mins naps are classical UT.
last night she slept through without any wakings till 4.20 and was up for the day then. this obviously isn't great wu time but at least she didn't have frequent NW's. so we had to do 2 naps today and she was so miserable that I had to APOP with of them in the sling, something I haven done since she was sleep trained initially at 6 months
she may be cutting more teeth, I have no idea, she is sucking her fingers a lot. and she is quite sick. so I guess she has to get better first before we can say anything about her sleep...
fingers crossed we don't have such an early start tomorrow again.

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Author Topic: 13 months and EW's due to OT (Read 3032 times)