DD makes no sound when waking up. Unable to gauge S and A times

[cookiemonster527]

DD is 8 months and is stuck in a 35 min nap rut. She's STTN and is an independent sleeper. I feel the biggest problem I am having is that I have no idea when she wakes up in the morning so I can't find the "perfect window" for the first nap. I'm confused now if she's OT or UT because the first nap is always only 35 min. I thought 30 min was OT and 40 min was UT, but I have no idea what 35min means. She always has a distinct sleep position on her side, sucking her thumb, hugging her lovey (super cute . Before she sleeps, she might move her hands to get into thumb-sucking position or her arms to get her lovey in place. I start counting S time when her arms stop moving. Is there a chance I might be starting to count the S time too late and that even though her arms/fingers might still be moving slightly? That would make it a 40 min nap and potentially mean UT. What confuses me further is that she always naps right away when I put her into the crib, which to me, indicates OT or at least a good time for napping...HELP!

In the morning, she doesn't make any sound when she wakes. Sometimes she'll make a peep between 5:30-6:30 and she'll look like she falls back asleep (and so do I). I don't wake up again until around 7:15 when DH wakes for work. By then, on some days, she's wide awake, on other days she's still in her "sleep position" but her arms/fingers are still moving a bit. I have no idea if she was up at 5:30 or if she fell asleep again (it seems so silly not to know when she wakes, but i'm so tired in the morning, if she's not screaming, I can't keep myself awake...). I don't know what time she wakes up, which means I don't know when best to put her to nap in the morning.

Our schedule on many of the days looks like this if there are 3 naps:
Wake (assumed) 6:30
S 9:30 - 10:05
S 1:15 - 1:50
S (either nursing or in car seat if there is a third nap) 5:00-5:20 sometimes 5:30
Sleep 7:30 or 8

If there's only 2 naps in the day, sometimes we make bed time as early as 6:30.

I feel we are having so many issues now I don't know where to start (short naps, 3 naps at 8 months, early wakings, short A times, etc.). I have no idea where to begin. Any advice would greatly help. Thanks!

[creations]

Hi cookiemonster

My first thought is that her sleep cycle looks to be 35 mins long which takes all of that confusion over OT or UT away. I cannot guarantee it of course but over the years I've been here I've seen LOs with sleep cycles of 30 mins long too.  Mostly I've seen the 45 min naps (so 45 min sleep cycle) which confused me when I first arrive on the boards as Tracy said in the BW books that a cycle was 40 mins and my own DS was exactly 40 mins.  But LOs just vary I think!

If we take it that the cycle is 35 mins long it would mean UT (but in addition may need some help to learn that she is supposed to sleep longer than 1 cycle, habits are formed so may also need breaking) and you can go ahead and increase her A time in 15 min increments and see how it helps.  You might also want to try a W2S for several days just to help that habit form.  Change the W2S times to fit your LO's sleep cycle, so I'd suggest going in at around 25/30 mins and beginning shush/pat or put a hand on her or be ready (inches away not rooms away) to help her resettle the moment she shows a sign she might be waking, keep soothing her all the way to deep sleep if needed. Here's a link, I would look at the naps option 1 (not 2 for  now)
How do I address habitual wakings? (wake-to-sleep and other methods)

With regards to her morning WU time. If she is happy, which she is, then let yourself sleep without guilt.  There are enough times as parents we are up half the night when they are screaming without then feeling guilty that we are sleeping when they are safe and happy!  Instead of wondering what time she wakes count your first A time for the time you usually get up, it is easier if it is a regular time, if that is 6.30 then count from there but if it is 7.15 then count from there.  As a result the first A time might look short but you know it's to allow for her unknown Wu time, when it comes to extending A times just move the first nap time 15 mins later (and again a few days later if needed) and continue with your usual getting up time.  I hope this makes sense for you.

Oh and as for always napping when put in the crib, babies this age have made habits so if she is in the habit of sleeping at about that time she will continue to do it but not sleep a long nap if she is UT (or if she is now in the habit of short napping), just because she falls to sleep doesn't mean it is the necessarily the right time for her.

hope something here helps you

[cookiemonster527]

Thanks so much for the quick reply! It feels so good to know that there is support out there 

I have a couple question I would like to clarify. If I try extending A time by 15 min (i.e. first nap at 9:45), should I try W2S as well at the same time? Or should I try one "method" at a time? I had previously tried W2S @ 30 min and ended up waking her every time and gave it up.

I've also tried resettling, but every time without fail, as soon as I go into her room and she sees me, it's all happy smiles and excitement (she waves her arms frantically at me . Perhaps this is another indication she is UT. What also confused me though is that there are some nights (maybe 2-3 nights in the past month) where she woke up within 3 hours of bed time frantically screaming and won't resettle for an hour or so (DH has to pace around with her), which to me meant she was OT. So I've been so scared that she's OT and always putting her to nap earlier whenever I feel she's even just a little bit tired.

I'm going to try a 9:45 first nap tomorrow. I'm so excited to try this out. Will report back!

[creations]

Extending the A time and Using W2S at the same time is totally fine and also what I would recommend at this point.  Please have a look at the W2S FAQ (link above, and scroll down to naps option 1), the method I am suggesting is not to disturb her sleep cycle to kick start another cycle but rather to allow her a full cycle and assist her right through the transition, so where you have said you tried it but woke her up, well she wakes at the end of a cycle anyway, she is still going to, even adults do (but our cycles are longer and we don't remember waking and transitioning through the night which we do about 6 times per night), the idea now is to help her go back to sleep at that transition time.  She is already an independent sleeper which is great and perhaps she can do this transition without your help but it is also possible she has begun to wake habitually and needs some guidance to remind her she is supposed to sleep longer.  You only do W2S for 3 days anyway, hold off day 4 to observe.  If she can't transition it can be time for possibly more W2S or possibly more A time, or both.

I've also tried resettling, but every time without fail, as soon as I go into her room and she sees me, it's all happy smiles and excitement (she waves her arms frantically at me . Perhaps this is another indication she is UT. What also confused me though is that there are some nights (maybe 2-3 nights in the past month) where she woke up within 3 hours of bed time frantically screaming and won't resettle for an hour or so (DH has to pace around with her), which to me meant she was OT.

I would agree with everything you've said here   There may be one part which is confusing you though and leading you to put down on shorter A time rather than slightly longer.  Those UT naps mean she did not get a fully restorative sleep, whilst he is happy and bubbly and ready to play she only got 35 min...continue that throughout the day and by the day's end she may be OT even though every nap was UT.  Rather than putting her down earlier to avoid the OT if you put her down later you encourage a longer nap, more restorative sleep, and avoid OT by BT.
One more aspect of OT waking at night, just to bare in mind, they can come from just the last A time being too long too.  So if A times are usually a certain length but due to short naps and trying to get everything down before BT and trying not to put her down too early for BT (because EBT is great but realistically there is only so long any baby is going to sleep at night) the last A time can end up being longer than the others, plus it comes after a short nap instead of a restorative nap so this alone can cause OT NWs.
As the NWs have not been frequent I wouldn't worry about them at this point (could even have been a spot of teething as teeth move a lot even before they push through or maybe a new food which gave her gas pain) but rather keep in mind that short naps throughout the day or a long last A time could cause these.  Once the day sleep is back the nights will likely fall back into place too, or it will be easier to see what/why there are NWs (but really babies just do have some nights like that from time to time).

You sound like you're doing great even if you don't feel that way right now.

[cookiemonster527]

YAYYYYYYY Nap 1 today was at 10AM and it lasted an hour and 25 minutes. A HUGE improvement on the 35 minutes we were getting before *happy dance* I had set an alarm a couple of times between 6-7AM to see if she was awake and I figured out she was probably awake around 6:45 so I tried the first nap at 10AM and it seemed to have worked! I'm wondering if in a couple days I can extend A time even further to get the nap even longer. But baby steps =) this is a huge improvement and I'll hold this for a couple days and go from there!

Oh and also, I decided not to go with W2S, just wanted to test the waters first with a longer A time. She rolled over at 35 min and managed to get back into the next sleep cycle. Then had a scream at 50 min, which I suspect may have been a nightmare or something. and between 55-60min she was moving around a lot but still asleep. And then she was still as a rock from 60 min til when she woke!

This has made my day =) let's see if I can get nap 2 right too =) Thanks so much for the advice and support! This is going well so far!

[creations]

Yay!!! 
Oh I do love it when there is quick success

You have a good plan there and you know what you're doing. Holding at this time for a couple of days before another increase. I would see if that nap can lengthen a bit more.

What I couldn't figure out completely but was the length of nap, I'd expect it to add up in cycles of 35 mins which it didn't. I certainly don't claim to understand every baby's sleep cycles or why things happen though, just good that the nap lengthened

[cookiemonster527]

I was a super happy mama yesterday. Our schedule was absolutely perfect:
6:45 wake
10:00 - 11:25 nap 1
3:15 - 4:25 nap 2
7:45 bed time

and slept til 6:45 this morning! I was in such a good mood yesterday -- so happy and so thankful for all the support and guidance!!

Seems she can manage 3+ hour, it was 3:15 for the first A and 3:50 for the second A (We went out and didn't get back in time for a 3:15 A time, but seems even with a longer A she managed to sleep 70 minutes which is right on point for 2 sleep cycles)

I also think the first sleep that was and hour and 25 minutes didn't add up to her sleep cycles because she had that scream at 50 minutes. I think she had woken up, gotten out of a cycle, and started another one, which is why the timing was off. Shrugs...as long as she's sleeping, i'm a happy mama =)

Today, we tried nap 1 at 10:15 (I was mistaken and thought nap 1 was at 10:15 not 10  ) She's been sleeping 51 min now =) and had made it to the second sleep cycle with barely a flinch =) YAYYYYY!!! let's hope it keeps up! very excited!

Thanks again creations for all the support and help!!!! 

[creations]

Oh I am so so pleased for you
I can feel the joy and relief coming through your message

Now then, I don't want to dampen your mood, but don't be too disheartened if things don't stay on track every day. Some times if the A is low-ish they do well with the small increase but then short nap again after a few days once they adapt to the new time. It won't be the end of the world though so don't panic ...I think you're pretty much on top of this now anyway aren't you.

I'm really pleased for you and for your DD too