Author Topic: 6mo 2-3 night feedings and extra wakings  (Read 4278 times)

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Offline N_Mom_S

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6mo 2-3 night feedings and extra wakings
« on: May 22, 2016, 21:10:28 pm »
Hi everyone!

My LO was having great nights until he got sick and we've been trying to get back to that without much success. He was having 1-2 feedings a night and no additional wakings. That was huge for us because he's never been a good sleeper and he has reflux, although it's supposedly under control now. We've using shh pat for naps quite successfully but when he was sick we had to rock him. It's getting better at most of the NW, but during the first one he still wakes up screaming and only rocking+patting works, sometimes not even that and I have to feed him. He'll be 6mo in 2 days and he's on a 4h EASY, breastfed.

My question is, is it normal to have 2-3 night feedings at this age (and he eats quite a lot in each one of them)? We just started solids and I thought that would help, but it hasn't. I'm fine with feeding twice a night if he really needs it (3 times is too much because the third one is usually very close to WU time and he either stays awake or falls asleep until late), but I want to know if there's something I can do to eliminate them if he doesn't need them and just got used to them.

Apart from that, I'd appreciate if someone could take a look at our EASY to understand why that first NW and how to get rid of it. I'm going to try wake-to-sleep tonight, fingers crossed! I just need him to last like an hour longer so that he doesn't need a third feeding so close to WU time.


The last few days (our ideal WU time is 8:30):

WU 7:15 tried resettling, had to feed
E 7:45, 8:50 (the first one to try to make him sleep without success, the second one his normal WU feeding)
S 9:35-10:40 (1h05)
S 12:35-1:00 (25m) we had to squeeze in another nap to avoid nursing to sleep
E 1:45+solids
S 3:35-5:00 (1h25)
E 5:15
S 7:10-7:40 (30m)
E 8:40 asleep by 9:35

NW: 00:00 (rock, pat, no success, feeding at 00:30), 1:20 rock-pat, E 3:00, 4:00 pat, E 6:30



WU 8:50
E 10:00
A 2H30
S 11:20-1:15 (1h55)
E 2:00+solids
A 2h35
S 3:50-5:20 (1h30)
E 6:40
E 8:15 asleep by 8:45, OT

NW: 9:15 pat (OT), E 00:00, E 3:50, pat


WU 7:10
E 8:20
A 2h45
S 9:55-11:55 (2H)
E 12:35+solids
A 2H55
S 2:50-4:20 (1H30)
E 5:15
A 2H40
S 7:00-7:25 (25m)
E 8:20 asleep by 8:50

NW: 11:35 rock, pat, had to feed at 00:05, then E 4:40 (good night)


Today he had two naps and BT was happy and easy:

WU 8:30? (he was quiet)
E 9:00
S 10:40-1:00 (2H20)
E 1:10+solids
A 3H05 (aimed for 2h30 but he cried a lot during shh pat)
S 4:05-5:25 (1h20)
E 6:00
E 8:45 asleep by 9:25


I'm trying to push A times to get ready for the 2/3 transition. He has some occasional days with two naps and sometimes he ends up overtired and sometimes not.


Any advice would be appreciated!!  ;D



Offline FPT23

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Re: 6mo 2-3 night feedings and extra wakings
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2016, 18:11:20 pm »
Hi there!! I'm glad your LO is feeling better :) how was he sleeping before he got sick? Was he sleeping on his own- going down independently? It's very possible the AP you began to help him to sleep might have got him used to it. I would suggest teaching him slowly how to sleep again or attempt by now if you have not already :)

Having a look at your EAS, it looks pretty good to me IRT A times for his age. You could very well be stepping into the 3-2 nap transition if he's starting to EW or have some more NWs. If you look at your last EAS he seems to have had a better night on less day sleep. Sometimes that CN at the end of the day is needed to make it to BT when transitioning. Especially if naps start to get short and you need to/start to push those A times and eventually get the CN out of the way. Slowly but surely. At this age, 3 hours per day is good enough (2, 2hr naps and one 45 min CN- ideally) ...this of course varies with child. Some are higher sleep needs while others need less sleep :)

Here's the link if you haven't yet taken a look for the 3-2 nap transition and signs they may be ready ;)

All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months

As far as his NWs... It's common to have 1-2 NWs for a BF baby at his age. With that said however, there is a GS at the 6 month mark so if he's waking and eating fairly well, then just keep feeding. You may consider feeding more often during the day as the GS passes through. Maybe every 3.5 hrs and top off before BT. It will pass! With that early NW I would just attempt to soothe and settle the best you can. If you are slowly working on I.S again then attempt to shh pat (varied to his preference) ...W2S I feel is more for habitual wakings-- if he is waking at the exact same time every night, then it is habitual. If it changes from time to time it could be he's just needing help settling.

Also, keep in mind as well, solids have just begun and can cause some mild discomforts in their nights at times... And of course, any signs of teething ;) ...lots going on at this time so treat each NW with these tips in mind! ;)

Hope that helps! :D
Fabi






Offline N_Mom_S

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Re: 6mo 2-3 night feedings and extra wakings
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2016, 09:05:33 am »
Thank you for your help! I'm sorry I haven't answered before, I've been busy, but I followed your advice regarding the transition! He was definitely ready for that! We still have some days with a 3rd nap, but just occasionally. And I think w2s worked! It eliminated the dreaded first waking, and from that he went straight to 3am, 4am the next day, and yesterday it was almost 6am and only one feeding!  ;D ;D ;D
Since these is long stretches of sleep are new for me, should I let him get closer and closer to his morning (9am) feeding or should I feed him at around 4am so that they're not so close in time? (and for the sake of my breasts, too!) Would that create a habitual waking?



Offline FPT23

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Re: 6mo 2-3 night feedings and extra wakings
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2016, 15:01:01 pm »
Oh great news! ;D

Glad to hear!!


I would feed at the 4am wake time. That is a long stretch without a feed. I don't think it will cause a habitual waking right now. He still might very well need one night feed kwim? And for the sake of the breasts ;) haha! I know how that is :o !
Fabi






Offline N_Mom_S

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Re: 6mo 2-3 night feedings and extra wakings
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2016, 20:40:11 pm »
Thanks for your advice! We'll see how it goes  ;)



Offline FPT23

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Re: 6mo 2-3 night feedings and extra wakings
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2016, 20:42:55 pm »
Your welcome! :)
Fabi






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Re: 6mo 2-3 night feedings and extra wakings
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2016, 16:26:25 pm »
Hi again!!
He's 7 1/2 mo now and we've gone several steps backwards after another cold (and that was 3 weeks ago).He wakes up 2/3 times to eat, at around 00:30, 4am, 7am. Then, on a good day, he goes back to sleep until 8:30 or 9am. On a bad day he doesn't. I've tried w2s since it worked the first time but this time it didn't. I'd like to stretch them so that I can make that 7am one disappear and avoid the risk of an early WU just because he's hungry or used to eat at that time. During the day I feed him every 4-5h (depending on when he wakes up from his nap) and solids 1h after; would feeding him more often help eliminate the night feedings or just the opposite? At night I do 5-6pm breast, 8pm breast, 8:30 cereal (usually 9-9:30 BT). His A time is around 3h and he usually takes two 1h30 naps, although it varies, but it's usually around 3h in total.

Also, he's getting much more difficult to put down, both for naps and BT. He always cries, sometimes more, sometimes less, but he hates it. At some point a couple of months ago he was even self-soothing some days, and shh pat was very easy, but now it's increasingly more difficult. Should I use another method, or re-train him somehow? I'd like to avoid PU/PD if possible. Our routine (for naps and BT) is story, song and white noise. Usually he starts complaining as soon as we enter the room because he knows he's going to bed  :(



Offline FPT23

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Re: 6mo 2-3 night feedings and extra wakings
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2016, 17:49:09 pm »
Awww I'm sorry! Colds can really throw stuff off. Hope he's feeling better :(

Can you please post your EASY?

It's just so much easier to help that way and see if we can figure things out from there. Track for a few days for me then come back :)

From what I can see, he might be needing another push in A time. If he's 7.5, he might be nearing 3.5 A time. Sometimes after a cold, some retraining is needed if you AP'd through it. It shouldn't be too difficult as he's done it before... Gradual withdrawal from shh/pat if that's what worked before. But if he's refusing it and is crying, there might be something in his routine that needs adjusting. Possibly.

Hugs xo
Fabi






Offline N_Mom_S

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Re: 6mo 2-3 night feedings and extra wakings
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2016, 20:54:49 pm »
I'm starting to suspect he cries more when either my husband or I put him down (he cries the most with me) than with his grandma. If that's the case, I don't know what to do. Hiring my mum for all his naps and BT is not an option, haha.

The last 3 days' EASY (I used to do solids 1h after nursing and now I'm pushing it closer to naptime to prevent him from waking up from his nap due to hunger, but I don't know if it helps or just the opposite):

WU 9:00
E nurse 9:30, solids 11:15
A 3H
S 12:00-1:30 (1H30)
E nurse 1:45, solids 3:30
A 3H
S 4:30 (crying a lot) - 6:00 (1H30)
E nurse 6:00, nurse 8:00, cereal 8:30
A 3H30
BT 9:30 (with grandma, less crying)

E 1:15, E 4:45, E 7:00


WU 8:45
E nurse 9:00, solids 11:00
A 3H15
S 12:00-12:55 (55M)
E nurse 1:15, solids 3:15
A 3H20
S 4:15-6:30 (2H15)
E nurse 6:30, nurse 8:10, cereal 8:30
A 3H30
BT 10:00 (little crying)

E 00:45, rock 3:30 (sh pat didn't work), E 5:45


WU 8:45
E nurse 9:00, solids 11:15
A 3H40
S 12:25 (crying a lot) - 1:40 (I had to wake him up) (1H15)
E nurse 1:40, solids 3:45
A 3H15
S 4:55 (he started to cry with me so grandma took over and he didn't cry at all) -5:30 (35m)
E nurse 5:35, nurse 8:00, cereal 8:30
A 4H10
S 9:40 (crying)



Offline FPT23

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Re: 6mo 2-3 night feedings and extra wakings
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2016, 23:53:17 pm »
Thanks for the easy layout :)

Is there a reason why you consider the 7am wakes a NF? Does he go back to sleep?

Also, his awake times are on the high side. You have him at almost 4 hrs if not at 4hrs for some days. How many weeks is he exactly? I would consider cutting back on the awake time and put him down sooner, see if that helps. Does he currently have wind down routines?

I think the NWs are due to OT. Is he actually eating a lot at all 3 NFs? How does he go to sleep? Independently?
Fabi






Offline N_Mom_S

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Re: 6mo 2-3 night feedings and extra wakings
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2016, 06:50:51 am »
Yes, he goes back to sleep. Both BT and WU are later than usual because that's what works best here in Spain  ;)
He's 7 months and 2 weeks. With wind down do you mean the story, song and white noise or something else?
He eats quite a lot during the NFs. And at BT he usually goes to sleep after letting him cry for a while (being there with him) and start the shh pat again. Usually continuing the shh pat non-stop makes him angrier.

Last night it was E 00:35, E 4:00 (tried rocking but it didn't work), and there was no 7am waking, could it be because he only slept 1h50 during the day?

Thanks for your help!



Offline FPT23

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Re: 6mo 2-3 night feedings and extra wakings
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2016, 15:36:47 pm »
Yes wind down- some babies like a quick and simple wind down as well.

Yes that could very well be. If he's still eating well at NFs then continue them OR your may want to consider adding more feeds in his day so he is not compensating for them at night, kwim?

Here's a link for you if you'd like to read into it as well as typical amounts of A time for babies his age more or less ;)

Typical Amounts of Day and Night Sleep

Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!

If he's having multiple night wakes one last thing to consider is teething? Very common around that age as well! ;)

Hugs xoxo
Fabi






Offline N_Mom_S

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Re: 6mo 2-3 night feedings and extra wakings
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2016, 20:44:51 pm »
Yeah that was one of my doubts, will feeding him more often during the day decrease the NFs? Or will he eat the same amount in the end? He used to be a snacker - feeding every 2h - and it was difficult to stretch the feeding times but we finally got it, I don't want to risk going back to snacking!!!  :-\

Thanks for the links, I think we'll shoot for 3h15 A time, we'll see!



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Re: 6mo 2-3 night feedings and extra wakings
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2016, 02:02:42 am »
Keep us posted! :)

Positive vibes xo
Fabi






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Re: 6mo 2-3 night feedings and extra wakings
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2016, 11:04:18 am »
Here I am again! ::)

The dreaded first waking is back - at around 00:30, 3h after BT - and yesterday I tried W2S and he woke up at 1:15 instead. Does that mean I need to keep doing W2S every hour until the next waking (at around 4-5am)? Nothing soothes him but the breast, and he only eats from one breast so I guess he's not super hungry.

Also, I need to mention he always wakes up mad at that first waking, unlike the other ones.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2016, 11:06:23 am by N_Mom_S »



Offline FPT23

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Re: 6mo 2-3 night feedings and extra wakings
« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2016, 16:34:39 pm »
How's his EASY? How's the new A times?

How is he going down at BT? Is he OT?

Sorry it's back!! Have you tried feeding? I do know when mine wakes up mad and won't resettle easy at night, it's hunger. There is a growth spurt during this time! is he getting a full feed at BT or during the day?
Fabi






Offline N_Mom_S

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Re: 6mo 2-3 night feedings and extra wakings
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2016, 15:19:10 pm »
Thanks for your reply!
Maybe I should have opened a new topic, the title can be a bit misleading because he's almost 8mo now!

As you recommended we're trying 3h15 A time, although the result varies, sometimes he stays awake longer. But in general he's going to sleep much more easily, now we just put our hand on his back and shhh (both for naps and BT). Some days he fights more than others, but he's not OT at night.

At his first night waking, I try to soothe him with water or my hand, and if everything fails I feed him and that always works. I don't know if it's hunger or learnt hunger, because sometimes he eats very little and sometimes he eats more.

Here are his last days:

WU 8:50
E nurse 9:05, solids 10:20
A 3H35
S 12:25-1:55 (1H30)
E nurse 2:10, solids 3:30
A 3H30
E nurse 4:45
S 5:25-5:55 (30M)
E solids 7:15, nurse 8:15
A 3H35
BT 9:30

E 1:15 (1 breast), E 5:00 (both breasts)


WU 8:00
E nurse 9:00, solids 10:20
A 3H15
S 11:15-1:25 (2H10)
E  nurse1:30, solids 2:30
A 3H40
E nurse 4:25
S 5:05-6:20 (1H15)
E solids 7:20, nurse 8:10
A 3H10
BT 9:30

00:10 (just water), E 3:00 (both breasts)


WU 7:00
E nurse 8:30, solids 10:00
A 3H45
S 10:45-11:55 (1h10)
E nurse 1:25, solids 2:30
A 3H45
S 3:40-5:25 (1H45)
E nurse 5:40, solids 7:20, nurse 8:30
A 3H10
BT 9:15

E 11:30 (both breasts), E 4:30 (both)



Offline N_Mom_S

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Re: 6mo 2-3 night feedings and extra wakings
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2016, 18:15:43 pm »
Last night at the first waking DH tried with his hand on DS's back and it didn't work, so he gave him water and rocked him and he went back to sleep, and then he only ate once (at 4am), although he woke up too early. I'm worried that it takes rocking again and we go back several steps  :(



Offline N_Mom_S

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Re: 6mo 2-3 night feedings and extra wakings
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2016, 18:22:41 pm »
I'll try w2s again tonight but my question remains if I should do it several times since he seems to wake up an hour later than his habitual waking time. For example at 11pm, 12pm, 1am, 2am, 3am so that he wakes up at 4am? Am I crazy? haha



Offline FPT23

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Re: 6mo 2-3 night feedings and extra wakings
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2016, 18:38:46 pm »
Hi! I'm so sorry I haven't had the time to respond but I'm bumping and hopes another mom can help! I'm running by quickly but have to feed the babies ;)

I'll be back to review more in depth again!

From a quick glance to your question on ur last post: habitual waking is if and when they wake at the almost exact time every single night. If that's not you then it can be another cause.

For now let me leave you with this reference and you can look over it quickly! I'll be back soon to look over your posts! I apologize! Hugs! :)

How do I address habitual wakings? (wake-to-sleep and other methods)

Be back shortly to help you better! :D
Fabi






Offline N_Mom_S

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Re: 6mo 2-3 night feedings and extra wakings
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2016, 15:01:09 pm »
Well, I guess it wasn't habitual because this last 2 days he didn't wake up and I didn't do anything! He's teething so that may have been one of the reasons. Last night he only woke up once to eat. We'll enjoy this peace and quiet while it lasts!!! haha

Thanks for your help ;)



Offline FPT23

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Re: 6mo 2-3 night feedings and extra wakings
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2016, 15:44:18 pm »
Oh my so sorry! I've been a bit all over the place but I'm super glad the storm has passed ;)

Anything else please come back :) always here to lend a helping hand! Vent away if need be too :)

Xo!
Fabi






Offline N_Mom_S

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Re: 6mo 2-3 night feedings and extra wakings
« Reply #22 on: August 02, 2016, 10:52:08 am »
Hello again!! We got 3 good nights and the dreaded midnight waking is back  :(

He's 8mo, and I know for sure that he's teething, but yesterday I gave him tylenol and he still woke up crying. He went back to sleep after drinking some water and holding him, and then woke up again at 2:20 and 5 and only the breast worked. This has been going on for some days. Before, just laying a hand on him worked for some days for those wakings that were not due to hunger. Some days ago I did w2s and he lasted until 2am.

Do you think it's habitual? I'm still confused, it's not exactly the same time every night but more or less yes, and it disappeared by itself during those 3 nights (no w2s) and now it's back again. And it appears as if w2s worked the other night although he still woke up crying at 2am (I fed him), and when it's hunger he usually doesn't wake up crying.

Apart from that, our routine hasn't really changed since I last posted our EASY. The only thing is that now he's crawling and pulling up so we always try to get him very tired before naps and bedtime, or else he just wants to practice pulling up in the crib  ::) When he's really tired he goes to sleep independently, the other times there's a lot of crying involved.



Offline N_Mom_S

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Re: 6mo 2-3 night feedings and extra wakings
« Reply #23 on: August 02, 2016, 20:56:19 pm »
I forgot to mention that I think he's also going through a growth spurt because the last couple of days I've been running low on milk :(



Offline FPT23

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Re: 6mo 2-3 night feedings and extra wakings
« Reply #24 on: August 03, 2016, 03:56:13 am »
Boooo I hate when the supply isn't there for the growth spurt :( hang in there.

Have you tried pushing his A times a bit? He might need an increase.

If you've tried medicating and that's not helping then just feed if you feel that's what's going on and it will pass.

Habitual is at the same time every single night. From what you've written it's not habitual.

Many hugs :)
Fabi






Offline N_Mom_S

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Re: 6mo 2-3 night feedings and extra wakings
« Reply #25 on: August 03, 2016, 11:23:09 am »
We're at around 3h40 A time, I think that's more or less what works with him (generally speaking, a lot depends on how much activity he's had).

Yesterday I did w2s and he lasted until 3:15am, I fed him, and then he woke up at 6am and I just gave him water and held him for a bit. This is why I'm confused, if it's not habitual w2s shouldn't work, right? And aren't habitual wakings supposed to go away after a few nights of w2s and not come back?  ???



Offline N_Mom_S

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Re: 6mo 2-3 night feedings and extra wakings
« Reply #26 on: August 05, 2016, 15:42:43 pm »
I've also done w2s the last 2 nights, the 1st one it didn't work and the 2nd one it worked  ???



Offline FPT23

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Re: 6mo 2-3 night feedings and extra wakings
« Reply #27 on: August 05, 2016, 20:15:26 pm »
I don't think he is habitually waking. Here is the link on how habitual waking is and how to address it:

How do I address habitual wakings? (wake-to-sleep and other methods)

I also want to address (based on your EASY when you first posted) you may want to look at typical day sleep for your LOs age. Here's the link as well:

How do I address habitual wakings? (wake-to-sleep and other methods)

...I noticed that some days he's having A LOT of day sleep. I saw days when he would nap 2hrs then another 1.5 nap then another CN for 25 mins... Etc. I think what's going on here is he is UT and that's why he is waking at night. I would try to keep naps at 1.5 MAX.

BUT, now your telling me your LO is at 3.40 A time. That is a lot for a 6mo... Even beginning into 7mths. Here's another resource worth keeping and looking into for average A times:

Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!

He's prob in an OT/UT loop... You need to fix his daytime routine a bit more. For the next 3 days if you can please write down his EASY and see where you are now. That way I can have a better idea. I was going off your EASY from before.

At 6mths his routine should MORE or LESS look like this:

E 7am
A
E solids (if on them)
S 9:45 or 10am asleep nap.

E 11:15/11:30 am
A
E solids
S 1:45/2pm asleep nap.

E 3:15/3:30 pm
A

BT: (preferably bedtime) asleep by 6:00/6:15 pm (but since this is a tricky stage of 3-2, some moms still need or use the CN as everyday won't be the same. The CN sometimes is already rejected by the LO and has to be AP, like nursing to sleep or stroller/car ride. It should not last more than 20/30 mins. At this age it can be more of an issue too. Its simply trial and error)

This is just an example. All babies are different. Some can handle less A times and some more. But your goal more or less should be around 3hrs by 6mths, more or less.

Hope this helps. Keep in mind it is not an over night fix but a gradual approach to bettering his routine and NWs :) ....he will seem OT at times or grumpy and that's ok- he's adjusting slowly, rather than do it all at once and he's a mess entirely.

Many hugs xo! Keep us posted :)
« Last Edit: August 05, 2016, 20:20:27 pm by FPT23 »
Fabi






Offline N_Mom_S

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Re: 6mo 2-3 night feedings and extra wakings
« Reply #28 on: August 06, 2016, 20:34:27 pm »
Hi, thanks for all the info! But he's 8mo as I said when I posted again on August 2nd, I shouldn't have used the same post as the last time because the title is misleading, I'm so sorry because you took the trouble to write all that!!  :-[ Next time I'll open a new post ;)
 I'll keep doing w2s just in case, even if I get mixed results. If you have any other ideas please let me know!  :)



Offline FPT23

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Re: 6mo 2-3 night feedings and extra wakings
« Reply #29 on: August 07, 2016, 20:28:40 pm »
ah ok I apologize! ;) I respond to several posts and I forget and don't go way back and just review the new posts as they come to ty and help :)

None the less- if THATS the case and LO is 8 months, DEFINIELY too much day sleep. At that age it's 2 naps a day. Please look over those links as they are great resources! I go back to them myself. :) but that is off that last EASY posted.

Well good luck with w2s then! :) keep us posted

xo
Fabi