DETECTIVES WANTED!! 11 wk old nap struggles, 45 min wakeups.

[eeleahc]

I'm really struggling to figure this out! Ut/Ot loop?? or short napper? or not linking sleep cycles?? Activity time too short, too long??... AHH!!! 11 wk old, EBF, DD2

Wind Down: she's yawning, doesn't seem super tired (or perhaps a tiny bit cranky sometimes)... I swaddle, hold her til her eyes begin to shut, lay her down with paci. Usually she falls right to sleep on her own. Sometimes she does this weird head thrashing thing back and forth (after being quiet for 5 min "sleeping"), wakes up and then isn't sleeping for another 20 min. (sometimes I go in cuz I hear these burst sounds and she's lying WIDE AWAKE in her bed! after I just held her with droopy eyes 5-10 min prior!!) She has barely any struggle to go down for the night, no wakings until I dreamfeed her. Alternatively, sometimes she is crying so much just as a swaddle her for her nap and while I'm trying to hold her she is thrashing, so I just lay her down and she calms down... like she doesn't want to be held??? then wakes at 45 min! (I should say, it is sometimes 40 or 50 min depending).

Here's a couple days of example:

This day was the first in a long time I was able to get a nap longer than 45 min:

Day 1:

E (start of day): 8:20
A
S: 9:40 - 11:20
E: 11:20
A: until 11:45 I laid her down for, but didn't sleep for 15 min!
S: 12:57-1:36, picked her up and got her back to sleep in my arms 2:00-2:30
A
S: 4:05-5:00
E: 5:00
A
S: 6:45-7:15
E: 7:30
A
S: 8:50ish down for the night.
E: 10:30 dream feed. Eat again at 3 or 4am.

Day 2:

E (start of day): 8:47
A
S: 10:20-11:05, put her in my sling and took my toddler outside, slept again for 11:20-11:45
E: 11:45
A:
S: 1:10-1:50
A
S: 3:45 - 4:30
E: 5:00
A
S: 6:30-7:00
E: 7:15
A
S: 8:45ish down for the night.
E: 10:30 dream feed. Eat again at 3 or 4am.

Day 3:

E (start of day): 8:26
A
S: 10-11
E: 11
A:
S: 12:39-1:28, got her back to sleep in my arms until 2:00
A
S: 3:25-4:20, in my arms back to sleep 4:25-4:55
E: 5:00
A
S: 6:45-7:15
E: 7:30
A
S: 8:30 down for the night (this evening she cried A LOT before falling asleep)
E: 10:30 dream feed. Eat again at 3 or 4am.

Do I try W2S? Do i need to just ride it out and keep doing what I'm doing? I have a 2.8 year old so I don't have time to shh pat her for 20 min when she does her 45 min wake up, so that's why I end up holding her or popping her in my sling.

Thanks for your detective help! haha

[deb]

Have you seen this? How Tracy Helped Josie and her Family Get Past 45-Min. Naps!

[eeleahc]

I did read it, It appears tho that baby is actually getting a 2 hour A time? Like she gives a light feed at the 1 hr mark (which I do see my babe yawning around that time), and then uses another 40ish min to wind down and play quietly before trying to put her to sleep? Am I reading that correctly?

[deb]

Yes, the light feed was partly to help boost calories to fix the 5AM waking due to hunger, and was eventually phased out. The quiet play was to keep her from winding up, helping her to wind down and giving mom (me! the chance to watch for sleepy cues. It was so sweet to see her eyes getting heavier and heavier and then she was pretty much out by the time she got into bed. It was extending the naps that was giving us so much trouble.

The dreamfeed was another part of the equation, as was sending DH in for the 5AM waking so Josie wouldn't smell milk. Eventually she stopped waking up then - that was the problematic waking, as she only was catnapping after that before waking for the day and so waking up already-tired, setting up the 45-minute nap cycle.

I was trying to keep Josie up for 2 hours so she'd be properly tired, but no way could she handle it. Before we changed things up, she was awake for an hour, sleeping for 45 minutes, all day, and we squeezed in feeds whenever it was closest to her next feeding time. It wasn't till she was about 4 months that she was up for 2 hours at a time.

[eeleahc]

I don't think I have night waking problems tho, I dreamfeed at 10:30ish and she sleeps until 3 or 4am for a feed, then wakes sometimes at 7 but I feed and she sleeps again until 8:15 or later. I thought too maybe she was waking up over tired (bc I would keep her up at that 7 am-ish time instead) but then I thought i should get her to sleep closer to the 12 hour mark, which worked for that first day (when she slept almost 2 hours) but hasn't worked since!

[eeleahc]

I can't seem to get her past 45 min. I put her in my sling when she woke up this morning at 45 min and then she was awake in my sling (eyes covered with paci) for 50 min and then fell asleep.. almost like that was her activity time even tho it was in my sling! So she slept 30 min and I fed her again. So all over the place! I tried this morning to give her a light feed before her nap and got her in the dark room at 1:15 min and she was sleeping on her own no fussiness at 1:20ish min.

[deb]

OK, sorry I missed this earlier.

So you're saying she wakes at 7 sometimes and then feeds and snoozes til 8:15 and then starts her day? When she wakes at 8:15 then, it's not after a full sleep, so she'd be waking up already-too-tired to do a full 2-hour A time. Have you tried getting her up for the day at 7AM, and seeing how long an A time she'll do? That in itself might be enough to break the cycle (worth a try, anyway).

Also, when she wakes at the 45-minute mark, are you able (I know you said you have another child, which I know makes it harder) to get there just as or before she wakes? Does she spit out the paci? For us, the key was getting her replugged before she realized it was out.

Finally, don't forget that you're about due for the 12-week/3-month growth spurt, so stuffing her silly whenever she seems hungry is part of the package (or at least those snack feeds and dream feed), as is some tweaking before everything levels off again. Are you able to ascertain whether you've hit that growth spurt yet? (For us, some were obvious, others not so much, partly because Josie's reflux made it hard to tell when she was truly hungry and when she was comfort-feeding to soothe the burn with milk.)

[eeleahc]

ah ha! that could def be it!!!!... example, I dreamfed her at 10:15 last night and then she woke up at 2:30 to eat, and then again at 7:00, which I fed her and she fell back asleep until 8:20, well hard to know if she woke up on her own or because my hubby came and got me... I will try tomorrow morning getting her up at that 7:00 mark and seeing how long she is awake for.

I haven't seen any growth spurt yet, but I'm hanging on.. haha! Also I found if I feed her a light feed before a nap, she isn't as hungry at the next feed, should I be worried about "snacking" if I squeeze in extra feeds?

Lastly, she is textbook/angel, and she can easily stay up 2 hours (not that I let her, but on the rare occasion when I missed her sleep window) she barely gets fussy when she's overtired so it's so hard to find her sleep window sometimes bc she's so content playing/cooing!

I haven't been able to catch her at the 45 min mark yet, she sometimes falls asleep without the soother but I notice when she is in my sling that when she wakes up at that point, i stuff the soother back in and she goes back to sleep..

[eeleahc]

Should I be concerned tho, that if she gets up at 7 but the night before goes to bed at 8:30, that she's not getting the full 12 hour night? That's why i end up letting her fall back to sleep after that 7 am feed to get her closer to the 12 hour mark...

[deb]

Odds are that you'll find that fixing day sleep will have a positive overall effect on night sleep. But the cycle-breaking has to start somewhere, and short naps are as good a place as any.

[eeleahc]

Hi again! bit of an update:

Yesterday she did really well when I just woke with her at 7:20. Her naps were: 8:40-9:55, 11:20-12:50, 2:15-3:30, 4:40-5:10 - because they were all under 1.5 hours, and her last cat nap was extremely short, I decided to give her another cat nap (or else bedtime would have been 6:30pm) which ended up being 6:50-7:10, and she fell asleep 8:30. I did not go in at the 45 min mark at all.

Last night she woke at her usual 3:15am mark (DF at 10:50), but woke up 5:30-6:30 with gas :/ I ended up feeding her and she slept  6:30-8:08 and we started the day there. I put her down at 9:25am and she pulled a 45 min nap :$ thoughts?

[deb]

It's early days. Keep trying to extend Awake time and naps when you can, but if it doesn't work, you do still have yesterday's relative success to build on. Sometimes things like teeth and tummy trouble can throw things off even from ideal schedules. 

[whattoexpect]

Hi Deb, you met Tracy in person 14 years ago? Wow. What a treat! How was she? I always thinks she has a gentle soul and special gift. And you are still active after all these years to help us clueless moms! thanks!

I am in a similar boat and tagging along this post for ideas:)

I see we have similar pattern as the OP. you said "So you're saying she wakes at 7 sometimes and then feeds and snoozes til 8:15 and then starts her day? When she wakes at 8:15 then, it's not after a full sleep, so she'd be waking up already-too-tired to do a full 2-hour A time. "

But the issue is when DD wakes at 7, she's soo soo sleepy during the feed (or even sleeps off). I cant see how she could stay up for even 1 hr, let alone 2. The rest of the day would be messy if we keep her awake at 7. thoughts?

[deb]

Hi WTE. We only got to "meet" Tracy over the phone as it was a phone consult, but yeah, it was pretty cool! She was lovely and calming and practical and down-to-earth - just the voice of reason I needed.

When your LO wakes at 7, was there a waking before that, or is the 7AM waking her first for the day? What you're describing sounds more like a nightwaking to me. (All that said, my DD1 woke at 6AM on the dot EVERY DAY during her first summer; I've not been able to have a lie-in since, as my body seems to have permanently un-learned how to sleep past then! LOL But to me, even 7AM sounds deliciously late! )

[whattoexpect]

Hi Deb,

She wakes up for feed once or twice at night. sometimes 2+6 am, sometimes  3,4 am then ready for 7 morning feed

if she's not that sleepy and we get her up at 7, a day would be like the following. If she fell asleep, then we just shorten the morning A time and S time, as she seems to be able to stay up less in the morning anyway.

E time:
7 AM wake up and Feed
between 10 and 10:30
between 2 and 2:30
between 5 and 5:30
7:30 pm (Bottle) and go to bed around 8:15
Night time feeding once or twice. sometimes 2+6 am, sometimes  3,4 am then ready for 7 morning feed

A time:
She's breast fed most of the time, which takes a good 45 min including diaper change and burping in between.
She would do tummy about 15 min, play bouncer, mobile, gym etc for 15-30 min.

S time:
She's typically tired 1 - 1:15 after she wakes up. Then we take her to sleep, which takes 15 min or so.

Also facing the ransom nap wake up time issue as posted here. It's not always 45. it could be between 30-50 min, anywhere there
random arouse time. Extending nap at 30,35,40,45,50 min??

[deb]

Hmm.... In a case like that I'd try extending the initial A time by 5 -10 minutes at a time, no more, see if you can stretch her without getting her OT. We extended DD's A time a little at a time, 5 minutes here and another 5 minutes a day or two later, until she had a more consistent 2-hour A time. That was part of the puzzle of getting her tired enough to KEEP napping w/o being OT. Such a delicate balance, which was why we went in small increments.

[eeleahc]

that was the exact same routine as me a few weeks ago!  i started extending awake time to 1:15 or 1:20 and started to see better napping.... and thought.. yay I figured it out..lol.. until now..

Deb: DD2 is now 14.5 weeks old. naps the past couple weeks have been so-so, manageable, and since she is an angel/textbook baby, even on a 45 min nap she is happy. I'm thankful for this. Typically she was doing 60 min morning nap, then a 50 min nap, then a 45, the last nap ranges from 30-45 min. Up near 8 am and to bed around 8:45.

This week has been awful, back to 40 min naps. Wondering if I need to extend A time again?? SHe's already at 2 hours A time. I think I got 2-3 60 min naps out of her this week and everything less than that. Is it normal for her age to need more than 2 hours A time? or perhaps it's actually too long? I know the 4 hour routine is coming upon me soon....

[deb]

I wouldn't go longer than 2 hours right now. What's the rest of her day looking like, and her night? When are NWs?

[eeleahc]

today has been so bad... she just woke up 30 min into her nap (previous nap was 40 min), i put her down at the 2 hour mark and she didn't fall asleep until 2:10 min. She;s happy smiling barely even looks tired at 2 hours A time! perhaps I'm missing her cues and she's overtired? but she's still happy!! I'm so confused...

past couple nights have been rough, waking 2 am, put soother in until 3, feed, then she was up again at 5:30, soother in, up at 7:30 but put herself back to sleep until 8 ish. She also seems to struggle to sleep anytime before the 2 hour A mark before bedtime. So now, I'm gunna try to get her back to sleep at 1.5 hour mark for last catnap, or else she will be awake until 9pm or later! ah!