Author Topic: Starting at 7 months. I'm at the end of my tether.....  (Read 2396 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Lel88

  • New & Learning The Ropes!
  • *
  • Showing Appreciation 0
  • Posts: 5
  • Location:
Starting at 7 months. I'm at the end of my tether.....
« on: June 04, 2016, 13:21:09 pm »
Hello everyone

Where to start....
Well I'm a 28 yr old first time mum to a gorgeous 7 month baby girl. Whilst pregnant I was convinced I would do another sleep training method, bought the book and read from cover to cover. Well, let's just say that didn't really work out. I learnt a lot about myself in the first few weeks.
No.1. I wasn't going to let my baby cry unnecessarily. And that meant not forcing her to stay awake or feed at certain times "baby must be awake and feeding no later than 2.15..."  I don't think so.
No.2. My baby was my world. My vision of baby fitting into my life did not happen, my life had changed, for the better and I had to adapt.
No.3 I literally had no idea what I was doing, and quickly realised I had to figure this out as I went. This resulted in me being in survival mode re sleep (I'll sort a routine out later, right now I need to sleep") Get baby to sleep in any way possible. I was, and still am exhausted.

When she was born she wouldn't latch, and I have been using nipple shields ever since. I have pumped milk out and bottle fed, but it takes up so much of my precious time when she is napping. she has cmpa, and reflux. This was only recently diagnosed when I tried to put her on formula and she suffered for 48 hrs with horrendous constipation, tummy cramps, and wind. Since cutting dairy out and increasing her ranitidine she seems to be betterish.
So, her feeding is nothing short of a nightmare. Now after reading the bw book, it's apparent that feeding her on demand has lead to her being a snacker. However she hasn't always been this way. At 3-4 months she was able to self settle really well and was only waking once at night for a quick feed. Now, I'm literally at the end of my tether. She won't self settle. Back arches kicks, gurgles, cries pulls dummy out etc. I've resorted to swaddling to stop her wriggling, but today has been awful she breaks out if the swaddle, back arches, and eats her feet. I've resorted to feeding her to sleep which i am really annoyed at, but I need her to sleep.
Her longest sleep time is 3 hrs, from 7.30-10.30pm. Then she's up every 2 hrs screaming. I resort to feeding her as I am exhausted and it's the only sure fire way to sleep. I haven't had more than 6 hrs sleep since she's been born. Recently, it's been no longer than 2 hrs.
So, came across the baby whisperer as I am very against cio and cc. I wanted a gentle yet structured way to encourage her to sleep
Read the book and wanted to cry. Clearly I have literally no idea what my baby wants or needs, and my solution to every cry has been stuffing a dummy or boob in her mouth 😭  I really felt like a failure, and wish I had the book from the start.
So have just ordered the bw solves all your problems (and I do have problems) as I need to read about starting easy from older than 4 months. I've read a fair bit on here about this, and have some questions....
What do I do if she doesn't feed well at the E stage? do I feed her later? I know that eventually she will feed better on a schedule, but to begin with I know she will literally be on for 3 mins before she starts fussing.
How hysterical do I let her get before doing something else with pu/pd? Or do I literally have to ride it out?
Has anyone else been in a similar situation and has successfully adopted easy and got their lo to sleep?!

Sorry for the epic post, I'm exhausted, emotional, and wondering when I will get some form of life back whilst making my little girl happier and less anxious ( she won't let me put her down, including bring in the pram...)

Thanks

Xx

« Last Edit: June 05, 2016, 02:59:16 am by Erin M »

Offline deb

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 593
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 21312
  • Resident Nac Mac Feegle
  • Location:
    • My Very Own Crunchy & Progressive Parenting Blog
Re: Starting at 7 months. I'm at the end of my tether.....
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2016, 15:18:48 pm »
OK, deeeeep breath.

Let's start with some basics.If you have a refluxer, your feeding on demand is less likely to have made her a snacker than her reflux, since feeding can help to soothe the acid burn. Making sure that's fully treated is going to be key here, because a person in pain doesn't sleep, and if sleep is bad, so much else will be too. :( You already seem to have sussed out a dairy intolerance, but there may be other things going on. What other foods does she eat? Are you doing solids?

Also, can you make a sort of EASY format of what's currently going on? Example:

 7AM waking
E: eat 7-7:30
A: awake till 10AM
S: 30-minute nap

or whatever your own more-or-less-normal is. We've found that an overview like that can be very helpful in targeting.

Also, if you know her current weight and dosage of ranitidine, odds are good that someone can work out whether the dosage is right or maybe needs to be upped, or can suggest other strategies to help w/the reflux pain.

Offline Lel88

  • New & Learning The Ropes!
  • *
  • Showing Appreciation 0
  • Posts: 5
  • Location:
Re: Starting at 7 months. I'm at the end of my tether.....
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2016, 15:56:25 pm »
Thanks for your reply. Her dose has just been upped to 2mls a day (1ml x2 per day) she weighs 15lb 7.
Her rough day goes like this...
07/07.30 wakes. Bf (this can be a big feed or short feed) nappy change and dressed
08.00 solid breakfast. We're blw so she has toast, fruit, porridge bars or whatever I'm having ( not everything I just put!)
08.30 breakfast finished and she starts to get cranky, so we go upstairs to wind down. Usually offer bf to calm but not to sleep
09.00 usually asleep by 08.45/9.15 but swaddled and dummy (had to do this recently as she just squirms and screams
09.45/10.30 sometimes 45 nap, sometimes 1.5 hrs. She wakes herself. Usually grumpy
10.00/10.45 breastfeed.
10.30/11.15 playtime with snack/lunch depending on mood
12/12.30 nap time. Sometimes this goes well, other times I have to feed to sleep. Swaddled and dummy
12.45/1.30. Depending on her morning nap time, this could be 45 mins or 1.5 hrs. If 45 mins she is very grumpy and unhappy so I try to settle but usually end up carrying her around the house for 1.5 hrs
16.00 try to do another nap before bed time, usually 40 mins. Usually have to bf to calm down
16.40/16.50 awake and breastfed, then dinner
18.00. Bath time
18.15 in pjs and offer bf
19.15 usually asleep swaddled and dummy
22.39/23.00 awake and fed back to sleep. Often wakes screaming, sometimes will latch but not suck and screams.
02.15 wakes, fed back to sleep, same as before sometimes re screaming
05.00/05.30 wakes, as above
07.09/07.39 wakes, fed and starts day.

However, if we have an outing, or I need to food shop, this pattern goes out the window new live in the middle of nowhere and a good 25 mins drive from nearest shops etc.

We co sleep as I am so exhausted getting out of bed picking her up and feeding her and then putting her back into got. We have a double bed in her nursery, so she's used to the room and her sleepyhead, which she sleeps in on the bed. Sometimes if seems like she takes big feeds, other times not so much.

I've tried to settle her with dummy for the night waking a but she just screams. I was thinking about gradually cutting the night feeds down by doing pick up put down? Re foods, I'm certain that broccoli gives her wind, but other than that I'm not sure.

What you think?

Offline deb

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 593
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 21312
  • Resident Nac Mac Feegle
  • Location:
    • My Very Own Crunchy & Progressive Parenting Blog
Re: Starting at 7 months. I'm at the end of my tether.....
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2016, 19:43:35 pm »
OK, until one of the other most excellent mothers comes along and adds to the thread, let me see what I can come up with. (My "baby" just turned 11, so it's been a while, but BOY do I remember the reflux with the one who's now 14-1/2!) Just a thought, and I'm annoyed at myself that it didn't occur to me sooner, but posting on the Colic, Reflux, and Crying board would be a good idea too.

The first thing that jumped out at me was the really short A time at the beginning of the day. By 7 months she should be able to stay awake pretty easily for well over an hour, although if she's waking up tired (from not really getting back to deep sleep after the 5AM waking, not to mention other night wakings), it's hard to keep them going.  :-\

Granted, mine was 3 months when we did this, but what I had to do was to try to extend her A times during the day....but without making her over-tired, because OT is disaster too (as we all know). What I finally did was to stay in her room with her for the entire first A time, and when she started getting cranky at the 1-hour mark, I turned off her lights and played with her in the almost-dark until her eyes could barely stay open and THEN put her down. I was able to extend her A time in 5- and 10-minute increments over a couple weeks that way. I also extended her naps by being there at the 45-minute mark (she was waking at 45 minutes on the dot!) and then when she stirred and spit out her paci, that would wake her the rest of the way, so re-plugging the paci before she noticed it was out helped her extend her nap length (this took a week or so of doing before she began to sleep thru on her own, also after longer A times, so it was a combination).

As for foods, if broccoli gives her wind, then it's likely that related veg will as well, including cauliflower, cabbage, and kale. If you're BFing, anything YOU eat will be getting into the milk, so if you know she's sensitive to something (and BFing is how I learned my older had issues with the cabbage-related veg LOL), you will also have to stop consuming it while you BF to avoid tummy troubles. What else is she eating? You mentioned toast and porridge bars; are they dairy-free? We had issues here with grains for a while, actually. Maybe have a quick read over the Food Allergies board too, for ideas?

I will see if I can get a Reflux moderator over here to have a look at your thread, check your meds dosage, but do post over there as well. :)

Offline weaver

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 210
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 10146
  • May your choices reflect your hopes not your fears
  • Location:
Re: Starting at 7 months. I'm at the end of my tether.....
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2016, 19:48:22 pm »
Welcome :)

definitely have a look around at the other boards - this one is for general hellos :) you'll get more eyes on the sleep and feeding boards.
*Anne*, loving mama to a honeybee (2010) and a sweetpea (2012).  BF for 4 proud years.


Offline MommyN

  • BW Aficionado
  • ***
  • Showing Appreciation 1
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 150
  • Location:
Re: Starting at 7 months. I'm at the end of my tether.....
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2016, 20:31:19 pm »
Hi  :)

Thinking back, I'm pretty sure that 1 ml twice a day was my son's dose at 12 pounds not 15. I may be wrong, but her dosage sounds pretty low. Worth checking in to. DS's symptoms would reapear whenever we needed to up the dose. Once we upped it he was a different child.

Best of luck!

Offline michaeljacknnugg

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 214
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 13362
  • New life
  • Location: UK
Re: Starting at 7 months. I'm at the end of my tether.....
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2016, 20:38:02 pm »
Hi! I have a baby a similar age - I will keep an eye out for posts on the Sleep boards.

We are on two naps, have been for a while now. So an A time increase would be my first place to start. My wee one is awake for between 3 and 4 hours, depending on the time of day.
My 'little man' - kind-hearted Spirited whirlwind, 2008
My love, my everything - BabyTwo, Nov 2015

Offline Lel88

  • New & Learning The Ropes!
  • *
  • Showing Appreciation 0
  • Posts: 5
  • Location:
Re: Starting at 7 months. I'm at the end of my tether.....
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2016, 22:32:22 pm »
Thank you so much for your responses. I had a tough conversation with husband this evening after I finally got her to sleep (had to feed to sleep) at 21.30. I just said I was so unhappy, and he said well she's not your normal baby. This made me a bit upset really. There's nothing wrong with her, it's all my doing as I got her into these habits... I will post on the sleep board. Thanks very much again. X

Offline Colin Macs Mom

  • Queen B
  • Global Moderator
  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 854
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 26994
  • Location: Bothell, Washington, USA
Re: Starting at 7 months. I'm at the end of my tether.....
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2016, 00:13:52 am »
I'm going to move this post over to Sleep so you don't have to start over :) Welcome!
Jessica
Mom to Colin Ronald, August 18, 2005
Spirited + Reflux =  :o


Offline michaeljacknnugg

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 214
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 13362
  • New life
  • Location: UK
Re: Starting at 7 months. I'm at the end of my tether.....
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2016, 12:27:54 pm »
What does he mean? There is no 'normal' baby!

We have got ourselves into some ridiculously tight spots too, but really I see it as responding to his needs rather than 'doing something wrong'. My guy takes aaaaaages to go down at bedtime, for example. I've tried fighting it, but it just gets worse. I'll play around and experiment a little, but if it's what he needs right now I can hold him and read a book, and get my Y time that way.
My 'little man' - kind-hearted Spirited whirlwind, 2008
My love, my everything - BabyTwo, Nov 2015

Offline deb

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 593
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 21312
  • Resident Nac Mac Feegle
  • Location:
    • My Very Own Crunchy & Progressive Parenting Blog
Re: Starting at 7 months. I'm at the end of my tether.....
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2016, 16:40:13 pm »
Thank you so much for your responses. I had a tough conversation with husband this evening after I finally got her to sleep (had to feed to sleep) at 21.30. I just said I was so unhappy, and he said well she's not your normal baby. This made me a bit upset really. There's nothing wrong with her, it's all my doing as I got her into these habits... I will post on the sleep board. Thanks very much again. X

If she's not sleeping due to pain, then you yourself have no given her ANY bad habits. You're meeting her needs to the best of your ability, which is made more difficult by the reflux and possible food intolerances. Please cut yourself some slack.

And "not your normal baby"?!?!? Depending on your definition of "normal," both mine were - or neither of them were! LOL Reflux is hard, to be sure, and at 7 months isn't typical perhaps, but "not normal" is a bit of a stretch. I have a friend who was still treating her DS's reflux at 5-6YO. *virtual slap upside the head to Hubby for such an insensitive remark* :D

Offline Lolly

  • Bottle Feeding, Discipline and Socialization
  • Forum Moderator
  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 318
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 11227
  • Location: Neath, South Wales
Re: Starting at 7 months. I'm at the end of my tether.....
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2016, 07:25:58 am »
Thanks for your reply. Her dose has just been upped to 2mls a day (1ml x2 per day) she weighs 15lb 7.

This is a low dose of ranitidine. Assuming your syrup is 150 mg per 10 ml for a baby of her weight the dose range is 0.9 - 1.8ml. At 1ml she is getting a smidge over the 2mg per kg dose, the range is 2-4mg per kg x 2 per day. Both my refluxers needed the full 4mg per kg for it to be effective, so I would speak to the Dr about increasing the dose.

Also, how long have you had the bottle you are currently using? Ranitidine starts loosing it's effectiveness after it's been open for about 4 weeks, so keep that in mind. We always saw an increase of symptoms at the 4 week mark which improved with a fresh bottle at the same dose.

Has she been checked for tongue tie? Just wondered with the latching problems!

Laura


Offline MommyN

  • BW Aficionado
  • ***
  • Showing Appreciation 1
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 150
  • Location:
Re: Starting at 7 months. I'm at the end of my tether.....
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2016, 08:08:00 am »
Also, how long have you had the bottle you are currently using? Ranitidine starts loosing it's effectiveness after it's been open for about 4 weeks, so keep that in mind. We always saw an increase of symptoms at the 4 week mark which improved with a fresh bottle at the same dose.
^^Yes!! I forgot about that, it's been a while...but definitely had that too with DS.

Offline Hoksiah

  • New & Learning The Ropes!
  • *
  • Showing Appreciation 0
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 5
  • Location: Ontario, Canada
Re: Starting at 7 months. I'm at the end of my tether.....
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2016, 17:50:58 pm »
Quote (selected)
How hysterical do I let her get before doing something else with pu/pd? Or do I literally have to ride it out?

Our son is now 7 months and a half, but he was really like your girl when he was younger: arching his back, yelling, clawing us and scratching his face/ears (so bad that it would bleed), kicking, etc.

So good news: it gets better!

The thing I wanted to tell you is that for a hard core sleep-fighter like our son (and I guess, your daughter), we needed to adapt a bit PU/PD.
If you do it just like Tracy says, chances are your baby is going to simply go berzek. At least our son did. So we were not putting him back down in the bad "as soon as he stops crying". We would hold him a bit longer (a few minutes) till we feel he relaxes a bit too. Otherwise, it would only escalate.
The point is to not give up... and the sleep-battle is so draining. Honestly I got completely traumatized by that and again, I'm happy to tell you that it gets better. So it would be good if your husband could help you doing the PU/PD during a week-end maybe, so you have two days to work together. Our son understood it as soon as the first day and it was already better on day 2.

Best of luck and remember, it gets better!

Offline michaeljacknnugg

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 214
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 13362
  • New life
  • Location: UK
Re: Starting at 7 months. I'm at the end of my tether.....
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2016, 18:03:06 pm »
Just wanted to say that PUPD is really a last resort. There are gentler ways to teach sleep, and I would try those first, especially as you have habits to break.

The order I'd go in would be:
1. Ensure she's comfortable (reflux)
2. Get her on an age-appropriate routine
3. Start introducing some sleep cues so that she's not going cold turkey into sleeping a different way
4. Start trying to encourage independent sleep.

Slowly and gently does it. We have a difficult baby wrt sleep but a couple of months on, things are starting to click. And with the benefit of hindsight from my first baby, now eight yo, I know it's an investment. Every time we get a sleep regression, teething or developmental leap we can just go back a step in our sleep training and repeat, instead of getting ourselves into a pickle.

My 'little man' - kind-hearted Spirited whirlwind, 2008
My love, my everything - BabyTwo, Nov 2015

Offline weaver

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 210
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 10146
  • May your choices reflect your hopes not your fears
  • Location:
Re: Starting at 7 months. I'm at the end of my tether.....
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2016, 19:45:48 pm »
^^^ Yes yes yes!

You cannot, should not use PU/PD until you're sure you've got the right routine in place for here and any other causes of sleep difficulties have been ruled out.  It is definitely not recommended for spirited or sensitive babies, and generally a bad idea for refluxers, in both cases because it can be stimulating.  You need to use an adapted version of sh/pat, gentle withdrawal, at the very least a good routine age appropriate + predictable wind-down needs to be tried.  Average A time at 7 mos is anything from 2hr 45-3 hr 15 that's an average, so some babies need less and some more. 

Focus on the fact that you're 'teaching new skills' not 'fixing a problem' ;)

10 Reasons You Cannot Use Pu/Pd
Shush-pat - How to
chronological EASY samples, 7-9 months
Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!
*Anne*, loving mama to a honeybee (2010) and a sweetpea (2012).  BF for 4 proud years.


Offline creations

  • Feeding Solid Food & EASY
  • Forum Moderator
  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 496
  • Posts: 21993
  • Location: UK
Re: Starting at 7 months. I'm at the end of my tether.....
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2016, 20:48:15 pm »
Hi Lel88, welcome to BW forums :)

You've had great advice from pps, I would really encourage you to see the doc about her meds dosage as soon as possible.  Two things come to mind and the meds is a big one.  When mine out grew his ranitidine dose all those symptoms returned, the waking in the night, screaming, back arching etc etc, I really feel for you, it is utterly awful to keep going through it day after day night after night.  In my case I had to go back to the doc a few times about the dose as the doc had worked it out incorrectly and my DS was not getting anywhere near the right dose.  The right dose is really going to help a lot, the ladies here have helped me no end with that.
You said in your first post do you need to ride it out, well I remember one night in particular with my DS where absolutely nothing could calm him, I held him and held him whilst he screamed and eventually he kind of passed out into sleep in my arms.  That night (and it wasn't the only time) there was no other option, all I had was my love and comfort to give, I imagine you are in a similar position during this tricky time too. In a way you kind of do need to ride it out for a while until the meds help your LO and the discomfort she is in which is why I would not delay on speaking with your doc.

The other thing that came to my mind is that your A times look really short.  Whilst I suspect meds are going to help a great deal there is also a chance of baby kicking, screaming and back arching when she does not want to go for a sleep and sees you are taking her for one.
At this age A time is more like 3hrs.  It looks from your times you may be giving closer to 2hrs A time.
I would suggest that for the next 2 days you do not attempt to put her down for nap until 2hr 30 (that includes wind down time so if you usually wind down for 5 or 20 mins allow for that aiming for her to be asleep at 2hr 30).
Then days 3 and 4 I suggest moving to 2hr 45, again allow for the wind down time.
From day 5 I would give 3hr A time. it is possible that she could need longer than this but it's a good place to aim for for the time being.

I see that your DD was self settling at around 3-4 months old, there is a chance that once she has the reflux under control plus an age appropriate A time she may need very very little in the way of "sleep training". I would not be thinking of PUPD but rather some gentle encouragement to return to independence (she may appear to have very many props but these could all be linked to reflux discomfort and under tiredness, any habits caused by these over time could be gently removed over a shortish time frame if she is pain free and you are focused).

If I read your information correctly you co sleep in her room but would be able to leave her in there to sleep safely without you there, is that right?  I really do think that once you have her meds dose upped and extend her A time you could start to move out of the room quite soon (so if it is not currently safe to do so I advise you and your DH to make plans for a cot in her room as a priority).  It would do you a lot of good to get some better sleep, everyone in their own beds.  Don't get me wrong, I am all for comforting a baby who is struggling, or in pain, or needs you for whatever the reason I really am...but good quality sleep is vital for you so you can function and have the energy to see to your own and your baby's needs.