Started nursery and all gone wrong!

[choc]

We were on a good easy of
Wu 6.30
S 10/10.30 to 12/12.30
S 4 to 5 ish
Bt 7.30

I have now returned to work and Ds2 has started nursery which he enjoys. He sleeps Ok when he is there considering I thought he might  not sleep at all! However we are having unsettled afternoon's when he is home (he does mostly mornings) and we are back to 5am wake ups.
At the moment the nursery just  put him down when he is tired and he has been sleeping around 1hr15 to 1hr 30. It's not the same time or length every day though. This makes planning the second nap tricky as I have a school run to fit round. And then there's the 5am Wu, meaning he is looking going for his first nap quite early around 9 to 9.30, which I know doesn't help things.
Any advice here? Should I try set naps? The nursery will do whatever I want but I don't want to seem cruel with demands to keep him up when he is tired from such an early start etc!

It's only been a week, should I give it more time before panicking? It's just these 5am starts.....

[Martini~]

Oh Honey don't worry. It will settle down finally. Is the nursery having a separate room for sleeping?

[choc]

Yes a separate dark room. He goes down for his nap perfectly and sleeps for an ok time, considering. It just what to do with the rest of the day and the ew.
Yesterday he was like this
Wu 5am to 5.30, Back to sleep til 6 (first time he has gone back to sleep)
S 9.30 to 10. 45 at nursery (I asked them to wait til 9.30)
S 1.10 to 3 at home (put him down when we got home as I could see he was tired even after short A time. I woke him at 3 for the school run)
Bt 7
Wu 5am


The day before they put him down at 8.50am as he had been awake since 5am but I asked to wait til 9.30 the next day.
It was like this
Wu 5
S 8.50 to 10.20 at nursery
S  1.30 to 2.20 at home
S 4 to 5
Bt 7.30
Wu 5am

[Martini~]

Being honest I would push nursery for a schedule. My son was 6mo when started and being honest according to the ladies he was really easy to push in the mornings. At home that was a different story but in the mornings there is so much going on that going by the clock was what really worked. Being honest I would push slowly for 10am morning nap if that's possible and go for around 2/2:30 pm for a second one. I know he can be tired but let's encourage him to take longer naps and try to prevent EWU. At 8mo 3 naps would be probably fine but only if first and last one are very short/capped. If they are uncapped around 1h it can be just too much.

[choc]

Trouble with a nap at 2/2.30 is I have to wake him at 3 for the school run. Nursery are happy to do whatever I want, I just can't work out what that is!

[becj86]

How is he when he wakes at 5? Does he seem wired? wanting to keep sleeping?

I think nursery have to be consistent. I think he may be getting OT too though... maybe an earlier BT may help but I guess you're hoping to get him to wake later in the AM?

[choc]

He is crying and whinging on and off with a bit of chatting thrown in.  He definitely needs more sleep. Today he woke 5 til 6 then back to sleep til 7.

Im sure he is getting ot which is why I'm trying to give him lots of sleep at home in the afternoons but there is no consistency. If I ask nursery to put him down at a set time that is no problem. I'm not sure what time though. I'll need him to sleep again around 1/1.30 to be awake at 3 for the school run. But if he goes down to early I don't want to encourage ew. It seems I can't win.

[becj86]

When do you get back from the school run? Can you push him til after that? Something like:
6:30/7 - WU
10:30 - nap
12 - WU
3:30 - nap
5 - WU
7:30/8 - BT

I don't know how you'd go getting LO to nap when he's just picked up big brother though...

He is crying and whinging on and off with a bit of chatting thrown in.  He definitely needs more sleep. Today he woke 5 til 6 then back to sleep til 7

Yeah, I thought it might be an OT waking - worth trying wake to sleep if you're game to get up at 4... or since he's getting back to sleep eventually, you might find he'll start sleeping through again as he gets used to daycare - how long has he been there now?

[choc]

He has only been there a week.
The routine you have given is our routine at home! It was working well for us, but at nursery his nap was not long enough to get him to 12 o'clock which in turn wouldn't get us to 3.30 for next nap. (we get back at 3.30).  Then he started with the 5am Wu which meant they put him down earlier and therefore definitely wouldn't wait til 3.30 for 2nd nap.
Also they have lunch at 11.30 and I wouldn't really want him to have it on his own later.
We could try 10 til 11.30 and 3.30 to 5. I would be stuffed if he didn't take the whole 1hr 30 at 10am though. Unless I stick to it as set naps and hope that eventually he will work it out?

[becj86]

Also they have lunch at 11.30 and I wouldn't really want him to have it on his own later.

Why not?

I think I'd stick with the routine you have at home if that's possible. I think its reasonable to give him at least a couple of weeks to settle in before changing things to suit nursery. I think also that given you've had the 5am WU and he's recently gone back to sleep, he's waking OT and as he settles in and gets his naps sorted there, he will sleep better at home. He is already starting to resolve that am WU by going back to sleep. Changing things in response to the first week is not a good idea.

[choc]

Ok well hopefully his wake up will get later then, as the only reason things changed in the first week was because he was waking so early and then couldn't make it to usual nap time. And his naps weren't long enough to make it to next normal nap time which clashed with school run. I am not wanting to change from our usual routine, just wasn't sure what to do about the ew. Hopefully it will resolve itself then.

[choc]

Hi again, I'm still really struggling and to be honest I don't think there is going to be an answer. It's not the 5am Wu it's just getting his naps right in general. My eldest son has started after school lessons 2 nights a week, swimming and football which means we can't carry on with his routine for those days as he can't nap at 4ish as he was.
We were doing a long morning nap and shorter pm nap after school run. Now the ideal would be to have his pm nap to finsh by 3pm so we can then go on school runs and do after school clubs. He won't sleep longer than 30 mins when not in his cot. However to get a decent nap in to be finished by 3pm his morning nap would need to be too early and I dont want to reinforce ew. Nursery don't cap naps so that's not an option in the morning. I dont know where to go with this, it seems a dead end in each direction. Anyone help me to see clearly?

[trimbler]

Hi there First, can I just say wow, that's brilliant that you did get onto a great routine before starting nursery - I bet you thought that would never happen

Agree it's to be expected that things would go wobbly when starting nursery, I think most of us experience that to some degree. Can I just ask what time you collect him from nursery? Just so we know what all the constraints are. What time would you be back following the after school clubs? What's the earliest you could do BT? And what time does he start nursery?

[choc]

Hi trimbler, yes we did finally get there! It was all going great but I had to return to work.
I drop ds off at nursery at around 7.45am and collect him between 12. 30 an 1 pm depending on when I can escape from work! I leave at 3pm for school run. For after school activities I leave the house at 3.45 and return at 5.15. Earliest Bt is 7pm. Desired Bt is 7.15/7.30.
Yesterday he had a great nap at nursery 10.to 11.45! It left me in a sticky situation for the afternoon though.

[trimbler]

Hey, sorry, just been away. Hmm so if I'm understanding correctly, on days where there are after school activities, he has to be awake between 3 and 5:15, right? Looking at your last working routine, I wonder if you could shift your day a little, to something like:

7am Up
11-1 Nap
5:15-? Shorter nap/CN (earlier on days when you can, or perhaps he might fall asleep on your way home from after school activities?
7:30/8pm BT depending on that pm nap?

I realise that's only an ideal and relies on you both being able to shift the day (over a weekend, perhaps?) and on him napping well at nursery - but then it looks like he's starting to manage longer naps there, a good sign

[choc]

Hi, sorry we have been away also! Thanks for the reply. Lo is waking pretty early and I am struggling to get him to a 10am.nap at the moment, he'd never make 11am.  Also for the pm nap we actually get in the house at 5.15 then by the time we have wind down etc it is pretty much 5.30 and get to late for a nap.
I have been doing something like this,
Wu often around 5am but dozes on and off til 6/6.30 when we get him up
S 10am and trying to cap at about 11am
S 1.30 to 3 then leave for school run
Bt 7.15
He has been on a 4 hour A for a while so I'm hoping that last A to bed will be OK. Problems I am having is he doesn't always do the whole 1.30 nap, sometimes it's 1.20. I think UT.
He is back to either having a night waking where he plays about for a bit then goes back to sleep til 6.30(we had been having these since January til about end of April) or he sleeps through to 5ish (which were having after the nws stopped. Now he switches between the 2). Sometimes he only has 9hr30 to 10hr of proper sleep and then another hour of dozing on and off.
Any thoughts on what i'm doing with the routine?

[choc]

Just a quick one to say we had a day visiting friends yesterday and sleep routine went out the window in the afternoon. We had a great night though 8pm til 7. 30 am! I know its not something we can repeat but is there any info I can take from it?
Wu 5am dozed on and off til 6.15
Oob 6.15
S 9.30 as I just couldn't keep him awake any longer
Wu 11 which was strange, I thought he would do a mega nap as he seemed soo tired  and fell asleep on his bottle!
S 2 til 2.30 travelling to friends in car
S 7 to 7.15 ish travelling home in car
Bt 8pm (it's usually 7.15 to 7.30)
Then slept right through til 7.30 with a tiny wakeup at 4.45.
Anything I can take from this?!

[becj86]

Maybe you could try a long AM/short PM routine, something like this:

1.5hr (or capped at 2hr max>) nap starting around 10/10:30-11:30/12 depending upon WU
CN on school run - 3-3:30 (is that possible?)
or UT one from 2:15-3 if he'll take it - I think I'd try for say 10min and if he's not taking the nap, cross fingers for a car CN
Then BT say 7:30.

WDYT?

[choc]

That is basically what we were doing before he started nursery! Except the second nap was more like 4pm til 4.45ish. I was wondering if that late nap was impacting on his night sleep. Also his nursery naps last week were only between 40 mins and 1 hour (starting at 10am) Which is an annoying time because he was still a little undertired to go to sleep at 1.30pm but if I put him down later I would have to wake him at 3 so would be a short nap or he would wait til after school run and be OT! 

[becj86]

Also his nursery naps last week were only between 40 mins and 1 hour (starting at 10am)

Maybe worth trying 10:30 at nursery then to see if you can get a longer nap?

[choc]

Thanks bec. I have been thinking about this all weekend driving myself mad and I think the only way forward really is short am long pm (lunchtime!) the main reason being that I collect him from nursery around 12. 30 so as I start pushing the nap back (and entering 2:1) I will be stuck once we get past an 11am nap. With a short am he can gradually drop that and keep the lunchtime nap when he gets home. Would that work? What would that look like do you think in easy?

Or have I got this all wrong? I am driving myself insane. Naturally I think i want to do long am short pm but can't see how it will work long term. I think he naturally does this and it would mean not waking him from maps which I think is what puts me off short am. I would probably have to wake him which I hate.  But I can't see how it would work long term when I collect him at 12.30.

I'm going round in circles. 

[becj86]

Is it you that has a nursery that won't cap the nap? If so, short AM will still be too long to give you a long PM nap starting around 12:30 or even 1. You'd have to cap it at 20 or 30min, I think

You could try to do a purposely OT short nap if you're really set on the short AM/long PM I guess...

Long nap at 11 then jump to 12:30 is not really ideal, I see what you're concerned about there. Let me have a think on that one, its really that you've got to get that long nap between 12:30 and 2:45 between picking him up and school run. Short AM/long PM is good for that because you can just cap the AM nap shorter and shorter til it drops and keep the long nap relatively stable. If nursery won't cap though, that's going to be tricky. How many days is he at nursery?

[choc]

My nursery has a company policy of not waking from naps but after talking to the girls in Los room said they will 'gently rouse' him, by going in and opening the door etc. I think they just aren't allowed to say they're doing it as have been taken over by a new company with new rules.
So I think short am it has to be really. I can realistically get him down for 1pm til 3. So what time would you suggest for first nap? I need to be careful of ew. After 2 good night's of 6m45 to 7.30 wake ups we were back to 5am today. Only 9hr30 night.

[becj86]

Its hard to decide, really - just have to run it as late as possible to avoid the EW and cross fingers he's not OT and grumpy from when he is woken til nap time again... I reckon you could probably leave it at 10 and make it shorter - cap at 30min and see how that goes. You may have to make it later or shorter or both but if they will cap, give that a go.

[choc]

Ok I will start with that. Thanks so much for your help!