Battle of the short naps - shh pat saga continues after 5 weeks - HELP!!!!!!!!!!

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has been waking up every 10/15 mins for the last 50 mins but I haven't had to go in, she's settled herself again after a few minutes.

Well, to look at the positive side, she is self settling which is great!!   That is a skill and looks like you have been successful with your gentle and supportive training, giving her the confidence to self settle and nod off alone - well done you!!
It may not feel like an achievement as clearly napping for 30 mins and then waking every 10/15 mins throughout the hour is not what you want at all and doesn't exactly give you a chance to grab some Y time.  I imagine you are on pins wondering what to do.  hugs.

I really don't think that this is because you don't know your baby, there may be something else going on making it very hard to follow cues (such as possible silent reflux) plus your baby is still very  young and going through so much development, it takes lots of time to adapt to their changing needs and developing personality.
I do remember my LO doing this waking thing then nodding off then waking and gazing around him or just staring but not crying for help, he was a bit younger than your LO but it seemed to be an ability to just 'hang out' in the bed and self settle for dozing rather than a full proper nap.  Short term I don't think there is harm in it, it's great practise of SS if nothing else!

Gaviscon for infants is not the same as for adults, the infant stuff is basically just a thickener to help keep the milk down but without sorting out the acid that's there (other people explain this much better than I do).  Often docs want people to try a time on Gavi before looking further.  Mine also started on gavi, we did see some improvement but only for maybe a week or two and then worse again. Are you in the UK?  if you are then I would continue with the gavi for now as your doc has advised then go again (earlier than 4 wks if you feel necessary) and ask for a referral to a paediatrician.  it was only the paediatrician who could diagnose my DS.

WHAT A QUALITY NAP LOOKS LIKE. Does it mean perfectly still for 1.5/2 hours?

No not perfectly still for 2hrs.  Sleep cycles are generally 40 or 45 min long and LOs come out of deep sleep to light sleep, wake briefly (might not appear awake) and enter the next sleep cycle.  So you can expect a movement or murmur or mantra cry or sucking of fingers every 40 or 45 mins...they sometimes transition without any noise or movement so it may appear longer.  Adults do the same about 5 times per night, wake turn, go back to sleep, very normal and most of us don't remember it in the morning.

If your A times are quite normal (not drastically too long or too short) then I'd put the multiple waking down to either something developmental (ie just this week) or possible discomfort of reflux (although not enough to make her cry out).  Time may help to work out what but sometimes we never know why our LOs have a phase of this or that and they just come out of it and settle down again.  for now I would follow this fitful napping with an almost full A time, she doesn't appear so OT that she is upset.

hope this helps - hang in there

[sara_haf]

P.s same thing happened with today's naps. Woke up after 30 (will start w2s tomorrow). No outright crying just fussing/sucking hands/turning head from side to side and making noises as if she's pushing something out and falling in and out of sleep every 5 mins. She was yawning/rubbing eyes/nose whilst doing this. She did this for 25 mins. Then she slept for 20 mins solid but woke up crying very loudly (as if she was having a bad dream, that type of "out of nowhere" cry) but I put my hand on her chest she fell back to sleep straight away and. In total she was in her Moses basket for almost 2 hours. Apart from the hand on the chest briefly with the momentary big cry I she didn't need reassuring and was able to self soothe. So.....she had 30 mins sleep/25 mins fussing/20 mins sleep/woke up and cried for a moment and fell back asleep a few mins later then slept for another 30 mins til I had to wake her up (was a little late for feed as I wanted to let her sleep). She was able to be down for so long because at the 1hr 5 awake time mark previously she really seemed tired so I put her down and went to sleep v.easily within 5 mins.

Is this the process she's going through to learn to transition/be asleep for 1.5/2 hours?? or would you class that as unsuccessful because it's fitful? Is it a sign that she's learning/getting better??? I just don't know anymore!!

[sara_haf]

Sorry I didn't see your reply when I did my "p.s". Thank you for your message. It's so so nice to have someone to talk to, someone who understands what I'm trying to achieve and why and knowing that I'm not alone. The way the last 3 days has gone (I've dedicated these to nap times as my daughter has been with the childminder and the dog went on her holidays!) I don't think there's very much more I can do....I am now able to get my LO to sleep generally within her window (between 1hr 10-30(more like 1hr 30 first thing in the morning). If she doesn't fall straight to sleep she'll usually settle herself
Not long after. She has been waking at 30 (going in at 25 and gently rubbing her cheek, will try this for a few days at a time) but she has still been waking BUT she has NOT been crying out at all when she wakes. She has generally just been lying there either staring into space, having a little
Fuss or chewing her hands and sometimes had the odd 5/10
 Mins sleep in and out but generally tends to be mostly awake for the remaining hour of the nap but again just lies there and sometimes goes in and out until I go in for her feed time. Now if I'm
Able to settle her quickly for a nap, she's not crying out and does sometimes
Fall in and out there's not much more that I can do here is there to get her to sleep apart from stick at the W2S because I presume she is better "resting" quietly for the duration of the 1.5hr nap over actually being out of bed at the 30 min mark. suppose all I can hope for is that this is a learning process for her and she will eventually learn to sleep in that time or through the 30 min mark. Annoyingly though for her last nap of the day she has done 40
Mins the last 2 days and we've had to wake her as I don't let her sleep beyond 6.10 as she's usually back down by 7.15/7.30 so I know she CAN do it!! Also, I've found out that
The GP gave me the wrong dose for her weight of the gaviscon so I'm doubling it from now on and just
About to collect some more from the pharmacist.

X

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Hi there
Reading your "ps" it really sounds very positive.  I do think she is learning to self settle and really there is nothign you cna do to "force"her to sleep. It sounds to me like the times she is waking and all the actions etc (nose rubbing, head turning and such) are all part of self settling.  She is happy to hang out in her cot and feels safe and secure there which is wonderful. She knows when she calls out you will arrive and during those periods she has not need to call for you. she's fine.  This is a time Tracy speaks about in the BW books and warns us not to go rushing in too soon.
There *might* be a way to tweak her A times to help her be more able to sleep for more of that nap time rather than waking and hanging out but then again there may not.  You could try an additional 5-10 mins on the A time and see what effect it has for instance (don't base results on just one nap though, try for several days if you can).
Keep in mind that around 4 months the A time does increase and there is a more rapid increase between 4-6 months...it isn't all that far off, the time will fly!

Do you feel there is more calm since starting the gavi?  Your LO seems happy to hang out in her cot even if she is not sleeping where as I think before she was waking and crying out even though she had (quite a good development of) self settling skills.  or perhaps it just seems that way to me, you are a much better judge as to whether you feel it is helping.
If it is helping just keep an eye out for any further symptoms, sometimes gavi helps for a short while but not long term.  Just mentioning as I went through that myself with DS.
Pharmacists are often more easily contacted to talk to regarding dose so I would check with your pharmacist on the dose and be clear exactly what it ought to be for her weight and age.

It's so so nice to have someone to talk to, someone who understands what I'm trying to achieve and why and knowing that I'm not alone.

This is why I have stuck around for 5 years   The community here is so supportive and I learn so much here.  I arrived when my DS was about 4 months old and have never left!

Have a good day x

[sara_haf]

Hi, to be honest I really don't know if it's the gavi that's working. She seems a little better but I don't think that's what was contributing to the short naps. I really do believe, despite my best intentions that I was doing the shh-pat too long when she woke so that she would rely on me for whole nap. It's still a working progress and I'll just have to keep at it but the big change for me as been that I am no longer trapped in a dark nursery for hours on end each day. If my LO wakes up, I'm there for her but I'm able to just keep an eye on her by popping my head through the door and going in momentarily if I need to because really she just seems to mantra cry through most
Of her nap whilst drifting in and out of sleep so that allows me to potter around the house and clean/iron (silly I know but I wasn't able to do any of that before because I was either feeding or settling 24/7!) and importantly spend time with my 4 year old. So that's the biggest change - to my sanity! The way I'm trying to deal with short naps now is to be a little more flexible with the E times (given that she'll be stretching soon as she'll be 13 weeks this week) - e.g. Last night she slept from DF at 11pm until 5.50am. When she woke I picked her up and she settled quickly making me think she wasn't actually looking for food so I continued to settle her and she mantra cried and slept for around 10 mins from 6.30-6.40 at which point I got her up and she ate at 6.45. She was then asleep by 8 (as she was getting cranky because I think really she had been awake since 5.50 apart from
The 10 mins). She slept til 8.30 and then was in and out until 9.15 (no more
Than 5/10 min) but then slept from around 9.25 until I woke
Her at 10am. I figured being 15 min late with the feed was ok (??) because a) she'll be stretching feeds soon and b) it was better for her to have a decent stretch of sleep so that I could be confident she could have a full A time afterwards c) got me back on track to my usual routine of 7/10/1/4/6.30pm. Is that OK to do that with feeds if need to, that is to let her sleep by 15 mins or so if she's had a short nap and gets me back on track? I imagine I'll have some Q's about moving to a 3.5/4hr schedule in a few weeks, could I ask what board I post it on or can I keep it on this thread given that it's likely to be an issue for me dealing with the naps more than anything (I'm quite confident my LO will do well with stretching out the feeds). Regarding your comment about sticking around the forums, thank you and well done. I imagine you have kept countless women slightly more sane with your gentle but practical advice so thank you once again. X

[Scottishmummy]

Hi- creations asked someone to pop in as she's not available for a little bit.

Sounds like things are going better for you.

Yes it's fine to be flexible with the feed of the nap runs over a little bit.

Please do come back if you have any more questions or other issues.  Probably best to start a new thread for a new issue, either here or on EASY board depending on whether it is naps or the whole routine you want to ask about.

All the best to you & your LO.

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Hi there
sorry I disappeared, I've been suffering with a bad back and couldn't sit at the computer.  Still sore but getting better.
I see you have another thread started so I just really wanted to explain my sudden disappearance and say I hope things are going better for you now xx

Thanks Scottishmummy for jumping in xx

[sara_haf]

Thanks both. Sorry to hear you've been poorly. I imagine it's been difficult to get much done with a sore back, poor you. Day time is still a working progress. Not much has changed. After improving a little last week in that I was able to get LO back to sleep after her 30 min wake up its gone back to normal in that I'm lucky if she gets another  10 mins after her 30 wake up and can fuss for the whole remaining hour but I figure an extra 10 mins is enough to see her through to her E/A time and I've just accepted that's what's happening for now. Despite the 30min&10extra min nap she is happy when I do get her up and can comfortably do 1hr20-30 A time and has about 3 times now woken at 7am (after stirring at various times and getting herself back to sleep) so that's great. Yes I posted briefly about wake up time and have been getting her up 7am. Thanks again and I'll be sure to update you of any major progress. Thanks and feel better. Xx

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Sorry to hear the naps are still short, but it's good to hear you are managing it and she's happy

[sara_haf]

So today has been interesting in that my LO has done 3 X 45min naps.....given that she's a serial 30 minute waker (for weeks and weeks) does that mean things are getting better or are 45min naps a sign of something else. Did your LO do this before his short naps improved? Her A times were a bit all over the place today as my husband put her down this morning but couldn't get her asleep until 1hr45 and then even though I asked him to try and get her back to sleep after she woke (at 45 min) as I had to collect my daughter from school he gave up and got her up early meaning that by the time she went down again she was at 1hr45 but for the third nap she was asleep by 1hr 25/30 as she was fussing. So unintentionally her A times have been extended today (1st/2nd) from 1hr30-1hr45. Do you think that's made a difference?? Should I try and replicate tomorrow or stick with 1hr30? She's 14 weeks on Saturday and hasn't been refusing any feeds/taking less and has been sleeping through til 7am for the last week or so (so actually sleeping better at night than ever before) So none of the classic signs she needs to transition BUT could it be that without those signs she is naturally ready for more A time, in which case do I move her to a 3.15 EASY and begin transitioning?? If it was the one off 45 min nap I probably wouldn't think anything of it but as all 3 of her naps today have been 45 mins it's making me think something may be up. What are your thoughts? Xx

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If it was me I'd see if she could go more like 2hrs (so between 1hr 45 and 2hr depending on mood) and would try for a full 2hrs before one of the naps (maybe first or second but not last as she will likely be more tired by the end of the day on short naps).

Increasing the A time does not always mean moving the E time. For those who take long naps it naturally extends the time between E as they are sleeping and will eat when they wake. For those with short naps or those who cannot yet go longer than 3hr between E it is perfectly possible to stick at a 3hr E time whilst still increasing the A enough to help LO nap well.
For instance mine could not go longer than 3hr between E until 6 months old with solids established between milk feeds, but he had a super long first A time, I just fitted E around the S when needed.

Did your LO do this before his short naps improved?

Mine had short naps of 40 mins and when he went longer it was after a good increase in A time.  It was probably a mix of developmental short naps plus the A time not being long enough for him.

[sara_haf]

Hi, I thought I'd update you after taking your advice. My LO will be 16 weeks a week today and has very naturally been stretching her A time to 1hr45 so recently I've been working on the first two A times and stretching those to 2 hours which she's done over about a week or so. I’m now working on the rest and for the last few days she’s been having 3 naps of varying lengths.

Thursday, I have to say today was a GREAT day in my book but I should qualify that with saying that the night before was HIDEOUS!! so I'm not sure if it's all linked in and she was catching up on sleep! She's been sleeping til 7am for about 2 weeks now after her 11pm DF but on Wednesday night woke up screaming at 10.20pm and then didn't settle until 12.30am then woke up again at 3am. I fed her (because she was hysterical and I thought she might be hungry but she really didn’t take much breast milk from me) but then I couldn't settle her AT ALL until 5.30am!!!  then she was waking up every 10/15mins until 6.40. She started doing this around her 3 month growth spurt and that was a week early so I think she’s going through her 4 month growth spurt a week early too. But then the rest of the day that followed was amazing in that her first nap (after 2 hours A time) was 1 hour 30 after a tiny grizzle at 45 mins (hasn’t done this since she was newborn) but then her second nap she actually slept (without stirring once) for 2 hours 15!!!!!!! Again, hasn’t done this since she was a newborn. I couldn’t get over it! I don’t know what was different that day or whether she was just getting used to the 2 hour A time. Unfortunately she was very unsettled at bed time and took a whole hour to go down but did sleep until her 11pm DF and all night after that. However, last night she woke up early again at 9.30pm and then again at 3am. So it’s a bit all over the place really!

I am (as much as broken naps allow me) to stretch all A times to 2 hours but my question is about the 4 hour EASY. QUESTION 1: If you’re essentially missing out one feed won’t baby then wake up in the night looking for that feed?? I haven’t noticed her actually taking less at any feeds but did feel like she could handle more A time and really with the broken naps, following a 4 hour EASY allows her a little bit more time to try and re-settle (e.g. I would have woken her to feed following 3 hour EASY even if she had only just fallen back asleep whereas because I know I have an extra hour to play with on 4 hour EASY it gives her the chance to have a longer stretch). As I’ve been trying to follow 4 hour EASY, I have tried increasing the feeds by an ounce in the day (she’s formula fed in the day) but as I’ve described above, every night has been different despite trying to get to 4 hour EASY (1 night sleeping through and 2 waking throughout). QUESTION 2: If naps are a disaster, can you revert to a 3 or 3.5 hour EASY THAT DAY if need be and just be flexible or once you start going with the 4 hour should you try and stick to it? It’s just that if she wakes early from a nap then I’ve got to keep an eye on A times and that may clash with a later E time if I’m trying to get her down again. I guess that's what you're alluding to in your last post but I just wanted to check whether it was ok to change it up every day. After all Tracy says a baby who needs to be on a 4 hour EASY who is on a 3 hour EASY will wake at night but as you know, having suffered with short naps sometimes you can't avoid feeding early!!
 
If it helps, the last 3 days have been like this.

WEDNESDAY NIGHT
Woke up early for DF at 10.20pm. didn't settle until 12.30am then woke up again at 3am. I fed her (because she was hysterical and I thought she might be hungry but she really didn’t take much breast milk from me) but then I couldn't settle her AT ALL until 5.30am!!!  then she was waking up every 10/15mins until 6.40.

THURSDAY
Awake at 6.40
E – 7
S – 8.30 – 10.05
E – 10.20
S – 12 – 2.15 (had to wake her)
E – 2.20
S 4.15 – 5
E 6.30
Bed – 6.45 pm but took AGES and AGES to settle (probably because the last A time was 2 hours) but it just naturally fell like that plus she'd had the best nap for weeks and weeks before so I thought she'd be ok.
Slept til DF at 11pm – slept all night
THIS WAS THE PERFECT DAY FOR US REALLY – BEST ONE SINCE SHE WAS 5 WEEKS OLD!!!!!

FRIDAY
Awake on and off from 6.15-6.45
E – 7
S – 8.30 – woke up after 40 mins and fussed on and off for 30 mins (with some intervention needed) but then fell back asleep for 1 hour 15 until I had to wake her at 11
E – 11
S – 1 but woke up at 30 mins having pooped (grrr!) but did manage to re-settle after a long time but only for 20 mins and gave up at 2.30
E – 2.45
Had to go to a party with my older child and during the party and in the car on the way home she was out for count probably from around 4-6pm!!!
E – 6.30
S – 7.15
Woke early for DF at 9.30pm
Woke at 3am, grizzled and went back to sleep until 4am but woke for BF (took a good feed) and went straight back down (no issues) straight after until 6.30am.
SATURDAY
Awake at 6.30 – eat at 7.
Down at 8.30 – 35 min nap…..tried to re-settle until 10am  - really unsettled, fell asleep for 5 mins here and there. Got her up and fed her at 10.30. I had NO idea when I should put her down again because she’d been awake on and off. I was meeting a friend for lunch and she was getting really fussy at 11.45 so I left and she fell asleep straight away in the car seat for 20 mins until I got to my destination. She woke up once I arrived but I managed to get her back and she slept for 1 hour 20 in the pram and I woke her at 2.30 (as it had been 4 hours). She was then awake (at a stretch) until 4.30 and fell asleep in the car again and had 35 mins. Now I really didn’t know whether to wait until 6-6.30pm for a feed or give her a little when we arrived home. She’s never been too good at having A time without a feed first plus I figured as she woke up through the night last night I’d try and tank her up so I gave her 2 oz at 5.15pm then BF at 6.30 and she was asleep by 7pm. I’m hoping she’ll stay asleep til her DF as hubby is away!!

Am I going in the right direction, do you have any further advice/thoughts?

X

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Thursday, I have to say today was a GREAT day in my book but I should qualify that with saying that the night before was HIDEOUS!! so I'm not sure if it's all linked in and she was catching up on sleep!

Yes it looks all linked. I'd say she was making up for lack of sleep in the night. What you can take from this though is that if she is REALLY tired she WILL nap longer.  Don't be too afraid to increase A times if it helps her sleep longer, often times people are too afraid of OT and so don't get to the point of a really tried baby ready to sleep a good long nap.

I would have woken her to feed following 3 hour EASY even if she had only just fallen back asleep whereas because I know I have an extra hour to play with on 4 hour EASY it gives her the chance to have a longer stretch

Yes. basically if she is asleep she is likely to go longer between feeds but like I said in the previous message some LOs just can't get to 4hr E.  It's ok.  You don't need to wake her to feed unless your routine is going totally off track and you really really need to establish set times for a while. So if she sleeps longer and E is 3hr 15 or 3hr 45 or 4hr it's fine.  Another time in the day she might want to eat earlier/later, it's ok.
Mine didn't get to 4hr between milk feeds until 6 months and solids established between milk feeds.
You don't have to feed the moment she wakes if she is not hungry yet (so it might not be going back to 3hr E if she can go longer) but you don't have to make her wait 4hrs if she is hungry.

After all Tracy says a baby who needs to be on a 4 hour EASY who is on a 3 hour EASY will wake at night

I take this to mean if LO is having too short an A time in the day they can end up UT at night so might have UT NWs.
Tracy did say not all babies can go 4hrs between E at 4 months and some are 6 months when this is possible...so it is about adapting to your own LO.  The 4hr EASY is about feeding at 4hrly intervals but it also has the longer A times.

hope this helps. Sounds like you're doing well even with the terrible night sleep you had!