14 mos taking forever to go to sleep, won't let me leave the room

[mommykay410]

Hoping for some advice/guidance here as I am becoming quite frustrated with bedtime the past few nights     A week ago I weaned my DD off BF before bed, which was her last nursing.  I was worried it would take awhile for her to stop nursing, but she surprisingly reached for her sippy of milk and was content to have that and not nurse after a couple nights, so I just went with it.  Ever since she dropped to one nap around 9/10 months she would fall asleep within 5-10 minutes of nursing at bedtime and then take 40 minutes to finish and burp before I could lay her in her crib.  I tried starting earlier in hopes that I could put her down awake, but whether I nursed her at 7 or 7:30 she would still fall asleep during it.  Now that she just has the sippy though she can't seem to relax and is taking over an hour to fall asleep.  Our routine this week has been bath around 6:45, read stories with Daddy if he's home, then around 7:15 I take her into our room, which is where the rocking chair is, and rock with her while she drinks her milk and looks through a book.  Her new thing the past 3 nights though is climbing off my lap and onto our bed and crawling all around it laying on all the pillows; she will not let me just sit calmly and rock her.  Once she finishes her milk I try to rock her and sing a little before I take her into her room, but then once I lay her down in her crib and start to leave the room she stands and cries.  I let her go for a few minutes to see if she will lay down (she does this for a few minutes at naptime too but settles quickly), but then I end up going in after 5 minutes since she is hysterical.  As soon as I'm in there she is calm.  I pick her up to lay her head on my shoulder but she only stays there for a split second then leans to lay back down in the crib.  This is great, however she then proceeds to practice every word and sound she knows, stand up and walk from one side of the crib to the other, and reach for me to pick her up only to lean and want to be put right back down.  I did this pu/pd that she initiates about 20 times tonight before she finally settled to go to sleep.  If I try to leave the room she cries immediately, and I have to be standing right next to the crib so no kneeling or sitting down while she works out her energy.  Last night I laid her down at 7:25 and it took her til 8:40 to fall asleep.  Tonight I laid her down at 7:05 and she still didn't fall asleep til 8:25.  I was hoping starting earlier would have her asleep by 8 but apparently not.  Thankfully she does sleep all night.  Normally she wakes up around 6:45/7, but I've now been having to wake her in the morning no later than 7/7:15 because she also hasn't been taking very long naps (1 hour - 1hr 15 min max and wakes up crying because she's still tired but won't fall back to sleep).  Her nap is at 12:30, and needs to stay at that time because she will be going to daycare in August and that's when nap is there.  Since she used to fall asleep by 7:30, 8 at the very latest, and wake up at 6:45, that A time worked out well for the 12:30 nap.  But now that she isn't falling asleep til 8:30 or later and I have to wake her, I'm thinking that she isn't quite tired enough to take a long nap at that time.  The problem though is that if I wake her earlier then she is getting less night sleep plus taking a short nap, so OT is bound to set in soon if it hasn't already. 

Yikes, this is a long post!  Sorry!  Just not sure how to get her falling asleep on her own again and taking longer naps.  She is lacking on sleep so much right now 

[Haribo2012]

Hi if she's waking at 7.15am and napping then BT 8.15/30 isn't really that bad. She is poss UT for a nap but if you have to keep it then the only thing you can do is wake earlier and put to bed earlier.

It sounds a bit developmental is she learning any new skills or any teeth coming through.

I would prob stick with gradual withdrawal as she is calm with that and every few days move further away from the cot.?

[mommykay410]

Thank you for your reply.  Yes, it's not the timing of wake up and sleep that is the problem other than the fact that she isn't napping long which tells me she is UT for nap like you said.  So I do need to get her up earlier, but the earlier I try to put her to bed the longer it seems to take her to fall asleep.  Last night I put her in her crib at 7:30 and she didn't fall asleep til 9:15, and tonight I put her in at 7:15 and she didn't fall asleep til 8:45.  She just can't seem to settle down even though she is rubbing her eyes, and continues to want to be picked up and put right back down and talk to herself for an hour+.  I don't know how much earlier I should start her bedtime routine to get her to sleep at a decent time because I'm afraid that she will just end up taking even longer.  I took her up for bath at 6:15 today and she started to crawl around our bed drinking her milk at 6:50.  She won't let me do anything relaxing before bed it seems...no rocking, holding, massaging, etc.  She is continuing to work on her walking skills, so maybe it's related to that in terms of developmental?  And I'm sure her first molars are coming sometime soon as she has had a few low grade temps and drooling, but those could be weeks or months away yet.  I'm sure it's definitely also related to transitioning from nursing before bed, but she is able to fall asleep on her own for nap so I'm not sure what the issue is at night now.

[Martini~]

I would just mention that at 14mo my DS would be massively OT with a nap of 1:15 constantly every day and such a late BT. We were on 7/7 routine with 1.5-2h nap and barely made it till 7pm. If 1:15 nap happened to us, it was a 100% shot for NWs or EWU.

Re nap- DS was napping at 11:45/12:00  for ages (nursery requirements) 12-18mo and it took him couple of months but he finally wasn't undertired for this nap. So after nap transition around 12mo he slept 2h at 12:00 but than the nap started to be shorter and shorter. I couldn't move it because of nursery and he finally started to lengthen it. So I guess it will come.

For BT fights I would really try a very early BT just to see if it helps, even as a one off.

[mommykay410]

Thanks for your reply, Martini.  So do you think if I try to put her down closer to 6:30 that would be early enough?  I'm always afraid to go too early with bedtime because she never sleeps much longer than 11 hours at night, so if she ends up falling asleep too early then she's going to be up in the 5:00 hour and that then be OT for nap (which happened a few weeks ago when she woke up at 5:50 and I had to hold her to fall asleep).  When I was nursing her at BT she would fall asleep already at 7:05 if I started at 7 sometimes.  But I usually only did that if she had a super short and early nap.  Normally around 7:30 is when she would fall asleep on me and I'd lay her down at 8 then.  She has been falling asleep right away for her naps the past couple days because she hasn't had enough night sleep with falling asleep so late and waking up at normal 7:00.  She napped around 1.5 to 1.75 hrs the past couple days.  Are you thinking that me having to stay in the room and hold her/put down/repeat for so long is just because of super OT?

[Martini~]

I would just try. Nursing at bedtime is really relaxing and can hide the OT signs. As for many 14mo is totally fine for 1nap, there are many kids who are not ready for 1 nap until later especially if the nap is shorter than 2h at that age and the day is longer than 12h. Maybe she has some OT builder up and need a catchup.

Even with one waking at 5/6am you could be fine. For sure she will sleep as much as she can, her meningitis A till first nap will be long so hopefully she will make a longer nap.

[mommykay410]

Ok I will try to put her down closer to 6:30 tonight and see how that goes.  She definitely starts to get cranky in the evening, so maybe that is the start of her tired signs, but then she gets a second wind after her bath and can't seem to relax like she would when nursing.  She has been on one nap since ~11.5 months, as that's when she was fighting her second nap so bad and it would take me an hour to get her to nap for 20 minutes.  Hopefully she will settle down early tonight and get a restful full night sleep.

[Martini~]

Being honest - but that's only my experience and I know kiddos may be different - DS started fighting second nap around 10-11 months. From 12 we had 6/7 days on one nap. But at 14 where we were on one nap consistently we started to fight IT as the nap started to shorten and we I could do nothing to help! I think it was spring tim coming, more activities, more advance walking and that all made him very tired. At 16mo we hit 2h on one nap once again and for the next two months he was at solid 2h nap with 12h night and he really needed it. During 18mo regression we hit 1.5h and now he is around 28months and is on 1-1.5h but until 2-3 weeks ago it was a solid 1.5h. After Xmas I have been cutting nap to 1.15/1:00 and even tried 45min for 4 days but he was constantly waking at night. Briefly but waking or screaming. It stopped when at the end of Feb (1year after starting one nap!!!) I let him sleep 1.5-2h once again and started sleeping nicely finally.

What I am trying to say - sometimes UT is a case but in that case you usually see a better night after paradoxically awful day. Here you are facing fighting BT. DS was doing that from Dec till Feb when OT. So I guess it's always worth trying. Even to know its not that:).

I read somewhere about 12mo sleep regression where kiddos fight two naps for 3-4 weeks but then they seem to need it once again. So maybe just her sleep needs jumped again:). Keeping fingers crossed!

[mommykay410]

So tonight I put her down around 6:45/6:50 and she was ok for a little while talking to herself and then started crying but she was laying down like she was trying to go to sleep, but then she was standing up and crying so I went up at 7:15.  As soon as I'm in there I think it becomes entertainment to her.  She proceeded to stand up, reach out to be held only to lean right back to her crib, and then throw her doll to the floor and get mad when I wouldn't pick it up.  So I had to play that game until she finally fell asleep at 8:10.  It's better than 8:45/9, but still way too long to be standing there waiting for her to fall asleep. 

[Martini~]

Thinking loudly that maybe it's also a case of independent sleep skills to be reestablished? Wdyt? Are you staying with her or doing wiwo?

[Haribo2012]

At this age my DS would need a 13 hour day on 1.5 plus nap so they are all different. Think I mentioned before to try GW!? How was the night?

[mommykay410]

When I laid her down at first I left and she was fine for about 20 minutes but then was standing and crying so I went in.  Once I'm in though I can't leave otherwise she cries hysterically as soon as she realizes I'm not there.  How exactly would I go about doing wiwo?  I don't know how far I'd get with GW in terms of standing further from the crib every few nights because she is constantly up and down wanting me to hold her and/or pick up her doll, so I have to keep going to the crib anyways.  I think it'd work if she was fine with just my presence. 

She woke up at 6:05 this morning and stood crying for a couple minutes but then laid back down and fell back to sleep from 6:40-7:10 when I went in to wake her.  So still only a 10.5 hr night.

[Haribo2012]

With GW I used to sit next to cot just using voice and patting mattress through the bars, then move s bit every few days.

Teaching independent sleep to toddlers

Have a look at the link see if that can help. x

[mommykay410]

Thank you for that link.  I think the walk out/walk in would probably work best for her, but then again I don't know if part of this is related to separation anxiety or not, and it says not to use it during that.  She is able to fall asleep on her own for nap just fine, so I'm hoping this phase will pass when she gets used to the new routine without nursing.  I will try to do the wi/wo tonight and see how she does with that. 

[Haribo2012]

Try and stay consistent and she will soon get used to it. If it's SA normally it would be present at some point during day too x

[mommykay410]

She does get mad when I go into a different room during the day, and cries when anyone else is around, even dad sometimes.  I have read that's also related to a wonder week right now too, so not sure which it is. 

[Haribo2012]

Sometimes it is difficult to tell.

[mommykay410]

So now I'm thinking the GW may be what I have to do because the wi/wo is way too stressful for her.  As soon as I walk out she cries hysterically and then when I lay her down again she quick pops her head up to make sure I didn't leave.  Last night I laid her down around 6:45 and she was already crying.  So I went up and tried to do wi/wo first but she was getting to upset and I didn't want her to get so worked up that she would start her almost hyperventilating crying so I stayed.  She did the same throwing her doll out and making me pick up again for a while and then started to settle but then wanted me to hold her.  After I picked her up and held her a few times she laid down and finally went to sleep around 7:55.  So at least it was earlier than the night before, but still over an hour to get to sleep.  She took a 2 hour nap yesterday too finally.  She did wake up twice during the early morning hours...2:55 and 5:15..then laid back down and went back to sleep til 7 this morning.  I'm thinking she just needs the cuddles while she is trying to fall asleep since she's not getting that from nursing anymore and doesn't want anything to do with me while she's drinking her milk before bed. 

[Martini~]

Honey I think the main question you have to ask yourself is what you feel and what you believe in terms of her acts. With mixed feeling as you seem to be now and some kind of clarity that she needs a cuddle you will not go with any sleep training method neither wiwo nor gw. The reason is that sleep training is about less and less interference from your side.

Please don't feel judged but I just think that any sleep training should be done only when mother is sure it's a good direction. In any other situation, and if you are uncertain what's going on - you are changing your actions during settling and this only make your DD confused. It usually also makes seeing any progress in sleep training impossible as if you want to reduce crying and see immediate results you need consequence. If you "try" and than go back to whatever you did before, it makes this "trying" useless for both you and her.
So when I usually talk to anyone and advice sleep training I believe it's better to start 3'days later than 1 day too early. If you really think she needs your cuddles right now - maybe you are right. It's your DD and you know her the best. When you feel you and she are ready for sleep training with all the consequences - it's worth trying again. I personally prefer wiwo as the results as sooner but GW can mean less crying. Less crying if the toddler is accepting every next step of GW. However some toddlers are very persistent and they cry histerically with every step back in gradual process so for those I would rather advise wiwo as the same crying is involved but process is much shorter.

Re routine - I think if she sleep 1:15 and 2:00h and you tried many different bedtimes - I wouldn't mess with the routine for now until you handle settling skills. I would set bedtime for the time you think is the best for you two and hope for the better soon.

[mommykay410]

Thanks, Martini.  I do agree with everything you said regarding sleep training.  I did pu/pd for a short period during 4 month regression for naps and dealt with horrible screaming crying during that.  I do think it may be a bit too early to go full-fledged ST since it's only been a little over a week that I stopped nursing her, so she may just still be adjusting to the change in bedtime routine.  I guess I will stick with what I've been doing for a few days yet and see if it passes over or improves at all, then consider doing wi/wo when I'm sure that she's not having separation anxiety and doesn't need me there. 

Today she napped 2 hours again thankfully.  And I put her down around 6:55 tonight, went up to her at 7:10 after a few minutes of crying, and she fell asleep at 8:10.  She goes back and forth between standing and wanting to be picked up, to laying and talking to herself, then just when I think she's starting to calm and might fall asleep, she gets up and plays the throw the doll game like she's wide awake again.  I do think that me being in there is part of what makes it take longer for her to fall asleep because it's entertainment in a way. 

[Martini~]

Yep you are probably right with how you presence is need but on the other hand is stopping her from settling.

Great that you made a decision Honey. We will wait for you if you need us in couple of days. Hopefully some things will settle back without a proper sleep training but if not, you can always count on our support:). Keeping our fingers crossed:)!!!