Almost 5 mo and pu/pd--will it take ages?

[sunny90]

My baby is getting harder and harder to put down for naps AND bedtime. I'm at my wits end, and frankly I have 3 other children under age 7 and I don't have TIME to spend putting him to sleep for half an hour (sometimes for naps) to an hour or more at bedtime.
I want to start PU/PD but I'm worried about it taking weeks and weeks.
His schedule is such, 2 hr A time sometimes he can manage more cheerfully sometimes not. 1st nap at 9ish, he naps for 30 min and then wakes up and the only way I can possibly sometimes get him to stay asleep/get back to sleep is constant rocking in the buggy. If I can manage that he'll sleep til between 1030 and 11. Then feed, next nap at 1. Here's where it gets tricky. He's woken up at like 230 and then you would think he'd be tired at 430 but he is IMPOSSIBLE to get down for a cat nap! I try so hard but its a flying time of day in my house and he gets too distracted and never seems tired enough, so he is chronically OT at bedtime at 7. I see that when he does occasionally get a CN he can sleep from bedtime at 7 til 3 am (without a DF, I never started one and debating whether I should now) and when he doesnt it ends up being more like 12. Then he wakes 2-3 times in the night.
So I'm moving him out of my room this week to a big crib ( he's still swaddled but has managed to turn over so I want to stop but he needs more room then) and I want to teach him to fall asleep.
Til now for naps I swaddle and give him a paci and hold him sideways in my arms and pat his bum, at bedtime he nurses, falls asleep and then wakes up when I burp him and then I do the same thing, but its taking longer and longer for him to get to sleep.
Any advice for how to start?

[becj86]

Ok, at 5 months, he is probably difficult to get to sleep after 2hr A time because he's undertired. You cannot use PUPD to get a baby to sleep when he's not tired.

Biggest thing to do here is to increase A times. I put a 2:15 A time routine in your breastfeeding thread - perhaps try that for a few days and then move to 2:30 A time if necessary. I get that you're trying to keep feeds closer together to get him to gain weight but sometimes if you can get feeds a bit further apart, LO will eat better at each feed and take more overall. The other option is a topup feed, as per breastfeeding thread.

[sunny90]

I meant to change it after I wrote the post. It's true his a time is closer to 2.20 now that I think about it. But because his morning nap is short many times the A time is thrown off because he's tired too early. Also, I pick up my 2.5 yr old at 115 so Im trying to figure out a working schedule for putting him to sleep in crib.
This morning he seemed tired around 2 hrs but fell asleep for a minute or two and then woke up, it ended up taking him til 940 to fall asleep and then again it was for 30 min exactly.

[sunny90]

Also how do I keep him from being OT if I can't manage to get him to take a cn?

[becj86]

I think you can't really say he won't take a CN until he's not UT when you're offering it. At 5 months, average A time is 2:30 - so an increase is worth trying - ie. put down for nap at 2:25 or so.

Particularly important to push that first A time so the first nap isn't short That way the rest of the day can unfold in a more predictable fashion.

[sunny90]

Okay will do! I'll work on it!

[sunny90]

So it would be nap at 930 hopefully til 11. Then 130 to 3. And then cn at 530? Won't that be too close to bedtime?

[becj86]

Not if BT is 7:30... That's still 1:15 A off 4min, might be a tad UT at BT but unlikely the first couple of nights at least given you're pushing A times a bit.

FX for some longer naps for you.

[sunny90]

What's FX?
So he slept this morning from 930-1010 and I couldn't get him back to sleep. Put him for his second nap at 1 and he settled fairly quickly, and rocking was able to extend him past his usual 30 min stir and wake up. Now its 215 and he's sleeping, should I just let him sleep til 3 but odds are there will be no CN? Or wake him soon?

[sunny90]

So he woke up at 230. Moot point.

[sunny90]

But what do I do if he doesn't manage to get a cat nap? (as happens most days)

[becj86]

Ok, so that nap from 1-2:30 is precisely the length you're aiming for, that's good. That was likely an UT nap from 9:30 to 10:10 - what A time was that?

Push that A time a bit to try for CN - won't work if he's UT. If it doesn't happen, you can bring BT earlier (5:30/6) or just muddle through as you have before.

[sunny90]

The 940 to 1010 I believe was a 2:35 A time
. So you're saying that's too short? I feel like he just moved to 2 hrs how can he jump so fast?

[becj86]

At 6 months, average A time is 2:45 to 3hr - its an hour jump in 2 months - up by 15min per fortnight, essentially.

[sunny90]

Oh wow. So I should be probably aiming for a 2.5 hr A time you're saying?