Author Topic: Almost 5 mo and pu/pd--will it take ages? (Read 4200 times)

sunny90 · « **on:** June 25, 2016, 20:33:36 pm »

My baby is getting harder and harder to put down for naps AND bedtime. I'm at my wits end, and frankly I have 3 other children under age 7 and I don't have TIME to spend putting him to sleep for half an hour (sometimes for naps) to an hour or more at bedtime.
I want to start PU/PD but I'm worried about it taking weeks and weeks.
His schedule is such, 2 hr A time sometimes he can manage more cheerfully sometimes not. 1st nap at 9ish, he naps for 30 min and then wakes up and the only way I can possibly sometimes get him to stay asleep/get back to sleep is constant rocking in the buggy. If I can manage that he'll sleep til between 1030 and 11. Then feed, next nap at 1. Here's where it gets tricky. He's woken up at like 230 and then you would think he'd be tired at 430 but he is IMPOSSIBLE to get down for a cat nap! I try so hard but its a flying time of day in my house and he gets too distracted and never seems tired enough, so he is chronically OT at bedtime at 7. I see that when he does occasionally get a CN he can sleep from bedtime at 7 til 3 am (without a DF, I never started one and debating whether I should now) and when he doesnt it ends up being more like 12. Then he wakes 2-3 times in the night.
So I'm moving him out of my room this week to a big crib ( he's still swaddled but has managed to turn over so I want to stop but he needs more room then) and I want to teach him to fall asleep.
Til now for naps I swaddle and give him a paci and hold him sideways in my arms and pat his bum, at bedtime he nurses, falls asleep and then wakes up when I burp him and then I do the same thing, but its taking longer and longer for him to get to sleep.
Any advice for how to start?

becj86 · « **Reply #1 on:** June 25, 2016, 21:32:26 pm »

Ok, at 5 months, he is probably difficult to get to sleep after 2hr A time because he's undertired. You cannot use PUPD to get a baby to sleep when he's not tired.

Biggest thing to do here is to increase A times. I put a 2:15 A time routine in your breastfeeding thread - perhaps try that for a few days and then move to 2:30 A time if necessary. I get that you're trying to keep feeds closer together to get him to gain weight but sometimes if you can get feeds a bit further apart, LO will eat better at each feed and take more overall. The other option is a topup feed, as per breastfeeding thread.

sunny90 · « **Reply #2 on:** June 26, 2016, 08:24:18 am »

I meant to change it after I wrote the post. It's true his a time is closer to 2.20 now that I think about it. But because his morning nap is short many times the A time is thrown off because he's tired too early. Also, I pick up my 2.5 yr old at 115 so Im trying to figure out a working schedule for putting him to sleep in crib.
This morning he seemed tired around 2 hrs but fell asleep for a minute or two and then woke up, it ended up taking him til 940 to fall asleep and then again it was for 30 min exactly.

sunny90 · « **Reply #3 on:** June 26, 2016, 08:26:01 am »

Also how do I keep him from being OT if I can't manage to get him to take a cn?

becj86 · « **Reply #4 on:** June 26, 2016, 09:26:07 am »

I think you can't really say he won't take a CN until he's not UT when you're offering it. At 5 months, average A time is 2:30 - so an increase is worth trying - ie. put down for nap at 2:25 or so.

Particularly important to push that first A time so the first nap isn't short

That way the rest of the day can unfold in a more predictable fashion.

sunny90 · « **Reply #5 on:** June 26, 2016, 09:43:58 am »

Okay will do! I'll work on it!

sunny90 · « **Reply #6 on:** June 26, 2016, 09:50:31 am »

So it would be nap at 930 hopefully til 11. Then 130 to 3. And then cn at 530? Won't that be too close to bedtime?

becj86 · « **Reply #7 on:** June 26, 2016, 09:54:31 am »

Not if BT is 7:30... That's still 1:15 A off 4min, might be a tad UT at BT but unlikely the first couple of nights at least given you're pushing A times a bit.

FX for some longer naps for you.

sunny90 · « **Reply #8 on:** June 26, 2016, 11:16:52 am »

What's FX?
So he slept this morning from 930-1010 and I couldn't get him back to sleep. Put him for his second nap at 1 and he settled fairly quickly, and rocking was able to extend him past his usual 30 min stir and wake up. Now its 215 and he's sleeping, should I just let him sleep til 3 but odds are there will be no CN? Or wake him soon?

sunny90 · « **Reply #9 on:** June 26, 2016, 11:31:02 am »

So he woke up at 230. Moot point.

sunny90 · « **Reply #10 on:** June 26, 2016, 14:43:41 pm »

But what do I do if he doesn't manage to get a cat nap? (as happens most days)

becj86 · « **Reply #11 on:** June 26, 2016, 20:49:35 pm »

Ok, so that nap from 1-2:30 is precisely the length you're aiming for, that's good. That was likely an UT nap from 9:30 to 10:10 - what A time was that?

Push that A time a bit to try for CN - won't work if he's UT. If it doesn't happen, you can bring BT earlier (5:30/6) or just muddle through as you have before.

sunny90 · « **Reply #12 on:** June 26, 2016, 21:08:49 pm »

The 940 to 1010 I believe was a 2:35 A time
. So you're saying that's too short? I feel like he just moved to 2 hrs how can he jump so fast?

becj86 · « **Reply #13 on:** June 26, 2016, 21:21:39 pm »

At 6 months, average A time is 2:45 to 3hr - its an hour jump in 2 months - up by 15min per fortnight, essentially.

sunny90 · « **Reply #14 on:** June 27, 2016, 04:37:31 am »

Oh wow. So I should be probably aiming for a 2.5 hr A time you're saying?

sunny90 · « **Reply #15 on:** June 27, 2016, 07:18:35 am »

Okay so this morning he woke up at 705 so I aimed for a 9:35 nap, he seemed tired before then but I managed to stretch him til the time and he fell asleep almost immediately by 940. But he woke up completely at 1010 again. Is that OT or UT?

becj86 · « **Reply #16 on:** June 27, 2016, 22:08:30 pm »

Quite probably - though 2:35 was a still UT, so maybe a touch more.

sunny90 · « **Reply #17 on:** June 28, 2016, 05:44:39 am »

So 2:45 maybe? He fell asleep at 2:40 and still was UT.
Also, yesterday he ended up having just a 45 min middle nap so slept from 430 to 5 and went to bed and slept very nicely. Woke up at 120 and 5. But if he has a decent length nap there's no way he gets the cat nap. Don't know what to do.

becj86 · « **Reply #18 on:** June 28, 2016, 05:46:46 am »

Drop the CN?

sunny90 · « **Reply #19 on:** June 28, 2016, 06:03:39 am »

When he doesn't cn he's severely ot at bedtime and takes ages to get to sleep but I can't put him to bed earlier way before my other kids because they're not to be trusted running around the house for an hour.
The thing is I'm confused. This morning for example it's been a 2 hr A time right now and he already seems tired and cranky. Other days he doesn't seem to be til 2.30. I'm not sure of he's chronically OT or not. I seem to remember my other kids having their first nap at 930 for a few months before moving to 10 am.

becj86 · « **Reply #20 on:** June 28, 2016, 10:50:39 am »

Can you write out your EASY again? As it is now? I know the CN can be tricky to fit in just before it goes.

sunny90 · « **Reply #21 on:** June 28, 2016, 11:15:42 am »

My question is is it better to cut his midday nap short to like 2 in order to for SURE get the CN in? So it'll be 2 shorter naps? Or to let it just go til 3 or 230 but then he's frantically OT at bedtime?
Today so far was
Wakeup and E 7
A 2:55
S 955-1025 (I felt like he might have stayed asleep if I'd gotten him through it but then I had to leave the house and all the bumping etc woke him up)
E 1055
A 2:45
S 110 and he's still sleeping. He stirred at 35 min or so but I rocked him a little and he stayed asleep.

Yesterday he slept from 110 to 2. CN from 430-5. Bedtime feed at 715 and was asleep by 740.

becj86 · « **Reply #22 on:** June 28, 2016, 21:05:13 pm »

Ok, if he were to sleep longer naps, though, the CN could probably go - something like this:
7 - WU, E
10 (ish) - nap
11:30 - WU, E
2:30 (ish) - nap
4 - WU, E
7 - BT

irinaandjacob · « **Reply #23 on:** June 29, 2016, 12:43:07 pm »

hi
this is so so so similar to the problem i also have with my 4m1w baby - he's sleeping exactly 30 mins...3-4 tmes a day... until 4 months, he went to sleep with a pacifier and a soft blanket, which he really loves. and now, i've decided to give up the pacifier, and there is about a week since i started pu/pd, and it takes me from 20 to 60 mins to do it, and then he'd sleep 30 mins at maximum... i don t have a problem putting him to sleep for the night, especially if he eats after the bath. i am breastfeeding and he still eats at 3 hours...planning to increase the time between meals from next week...anyway, today, he slept, 10 mis at 9.45 (after 40 mins of pu/pd), then 30 mins at 12.20, then woke up crying at 13.00, ate very little. i wend for a walk, hoping it will calm him, but he cried until we came home, at 14.45. i put him on his play zone and just gave him his blanket to play with it...left him there as i was wasted and went to make a coffee...and...in 10 mins he was sleeping like an angel... slept like that for 45 mins

sunny90 · « **Reply #24 on:** June 29, 2016, 19:28:04 pm »

Quote from: becj86 on June 28, 2016, 21:05:13 pm

Ok, if he were to sleep longer naps, though, the CN could probably go - something like this:
7 - WU, E
10 (ish) - nap
11:30 - WU, E
2:30 (ish) - nap
4 - WU, E
7 - BT

Yes I know but I don't think he's ready to go 3 hours yet...also I remember my other kids having a 2.5 hr first A time for at least a few months...or at least their first nap was at 9:30. Hm...
Its hard to keep him up so long for his first A time as it is.

becj86 · « **Reply #25 on:** June 29, 2016, 20:48:23 pm »

Ok, so you don't have to go there - how long are his naps though? If you can get them slightly longer than 1.5hr, he would make it to a 12hr day even with 2:45 A time or so. CN just is a pain at this age, not really any getting around that, especially with other kids at home to be exciting

Ideally, you wouldn't cap two naps in a day, but you can if you have to to get the 3rd nap in - just IME, it usually leads to the OT at BT anyway because of the capping.

sunny90 · « **Reply #26 on:** June 30, 2016, 06:55:07 am »

So...
Yesterday he had two crap naps (slept 20 min for the second one and I ended up feeding him at 2 and he dozed for like 10 min) so at 430 I just decided to sit and nurse him so he could rest. He fell asleep almost immediately and slept on me til 5. Then I fed him his dinner of solids (gave him a little extra because he wanted it) had his normal bedtime at 7 and was fast asleep by like 740. He then slept until 4:30!!!!! He has never done that! So basically what I learned is, CN or bust. Seriously, him not being OT at bedtime made such a huge difference!

This morning he woke at 7, and by 930 he was a basket case. I tried stretching him to 945, finally at 940 wrapped him stuck the dummy in and he fell asleep so fast it was almost comical. So I'm assuming he's pretty OT for this nap...
So should I keep to 2.5 hr A time? Maybe just for the first nap? I think I'm going to try the 430 feed and rest thing every day until he can last longer and drop the CN. Its the only thing that seems to work. Also, maybe it's helping tank him up for the night.

becj86 · « **Reply #27 on:** July 02, 2016, 05:13:41 am »

2.5hr may well be perfect for him at the moment. Stick with it if that's what works for him. I was just offering suggestions as o how to deal with the CN being an issue.

sunny90 · « **Reply #28 on:** July 03, 2016, 09:13:05 am »

So, update. Friday night I fed him at 715 he was asleep by about 8 and he woke up at FIVE FIFTEEN! Obviously he desperately needs that CN!
2.5 might be too short, I tried it today and he only slept 25 min. I'll try 2.45.
Last night though he CN unti 515 and then he had a hard time falling asleep and then woke up an hour later. I rocked him back to sleep and then he slept til 4:55 without a feed. So still doing pretty good.

sunny90 · « **Reply #29 on:** July 03, 2016, 11:13:53 am »

What I'm concerned about is that basically hes taking 3 short naps a day in order to fit them all in and I worry that he"ll get too accustomed to that and never take long naps.

becj86 · « **Reply #30 on:** July 04, 2016, 01:23:09 am »

Can you write out what your day looks like?

sunny90 · « **Reply #31 on:** July 07, 2016, 11:16:43 am »

Ok so here goes:
E-and WU 7
A
S- 945 seems to start getting tired, usually asleep by 10
1030 wakes up, lately he's been waking up even before half an hour sometimes, sometimes if it takes him longer to fall asleep he sleeps til closer til 11
E-11
A
E-1230 90 ml of formula with baby oatmeal mixed in
S-130/145-2/215
E-215/230ish
A
S/E-430-5 I nurse him to sleep and just sit with him for half an hour nursing, usually on the same side as before so there isn't much milk
E-530 solids
A
E-7
S-by 745ish usually. He does an interesting thing where he falls asleep nursing, I burp him and he doesn't stir, I put him in bed and about 5-7 min later he wakes up and then I take him out give him the dummy and pat his bottom til he falls asleep (pretty quickly because hes basically half asleep) and then it's for good that time
WU during the night between 4 and 530. No DF.
Last night we moved him to his own room and a big crib and he woke up at 345 which is earlier than he has since I discovered that a CN was so essential.
I would think he might be able to switch to a 3 hr A time but the problem is his short naps, and if his second nap is too late and is still short he won't manage the CN and will regress to waking up a lot at night. And I wanted to start teaching him to go to sleep by himself at bedtime.
Also lately he's not always managing the half hour nap, he's waking up after 20 or 25 min.
Whew.

becj86 · « **Reply #32 on:** July 07, 2016, 20:07:33 pm »

Quote from: sunny90 on July 07, 2016, 11:16:43 am

I would think he might be able to switch to a 3 hr A time but the problem is his short naps,

The short naps may be helped by the longer A time - that first nap is UT, second is OT.

Are none of his sleeps independent? When he sleeps in the cot, is he awake or asleep when you put him down? Just that factor alone can affect whether you get a 45min waking or not - he may be waking because when he stirs, he realises he's not where he was when he fell asleep.

sunny90 · « **Reply #33 on:** July 08, 2016, 04:26:31 am »

How can his first nap be UT if it's at 3 hours? Also so should I be working towards independent sleep for bedtime and naps simultaneously? He doesn't fall asleep by himself, no.
Also I never get a 45 min waking 30 min was his max.

becj86 · « **Reply #34 on:** July 08, 2016, 08:00:48 am »

Sorry, I saw 9:45 to 10:30. Ignore my tired brain, sorry! I'll look at that again in the morning.

sunny90 · « **Reply #35 on:** July 08, 2016, 08:23:42 am »

Also last night he woke up at 1230 and wouldn't take the dummy to go back to sleep so ended up feeding him but he wasn't settling down so I finally just took him to bed with me...bad I know! But it was the end of a really crappy day and u just didn't have the emotional energy to deal.

becj86 · « **Reply #36 on:** July 08, 2016, 19:48:27 pm »

Alrighty, brain seems to be functioning better this morning, I think.

What I'm seeing is that you're pushing A time with the aim of dropping the CN and getting long naps again. Essentially, LO may require a little help to get through the first few days of new A times, so just helping he get through that 30min waking by being there at 25min and watching for him to stir and holding his arms to prevent them flapping or just putting a hand on him to help him settle may help. If he's somewhere different from where he fell asleep, he may be waking due to that, so yes, independent sleep will help both naps and night - so much more practise for him to do both at the same time

Its the same skill.

PUPD is difficult to sustain. There are other ways that should be tried first. I can help you work out what might suit him best if you like:
How is he currently getting to sleep?
How do you ideally want him to go to sleep?
Are there any limitations to your ability to do sleep training - must shut in chooks at 5pm regardless, or whatever?
What is his personality/temperament? The BW "Know Your Baby Quiz"

sunny90 · « **Reply #37 on:** July 09, 2016, 18:07:02 pm »

Currently I swaddle him give him the dummy and hold him sideways against me and pat his bottom til he falls asleep. For naps and bedtime. I think he should probably lose the swaddle in order to get himself comfortable to fall asleep. Ideally would like to put him in his crib and have him go to sleep alone after a little nap/bedtime routine. Should I be switching to 2 naps now?

sunny90 · « **Reply #38 on:** July 09, 2016, 18:12:26 pm »

I have no idea what type of baby he is, he wants to be held all the time and cries most times when I put him down (unless I stay and play with him). However when I play with him he's very cheerful. He's somewhere between s textbook/touchy/spirited baby it looks like.

becj86 · « **Reply #39 on:** July 09, 2016, 20:12:56 pm »

Quote from: sunny90 on July 09, 2016, 18:07:02 pm

Currently I swaddle him give him the dummy and hold him sideways against me and pat his bottom til he falls asleep

WRT swaddle - is he rolling? If so, he swaddle has to go for safety reasons.
WRT independent sleep, this is actually such an easy getting-LO-to sleep method to sleep train with gradual withdrawal - you can just do the same things but put him down drowsy and keep patting his bottom while he's in the cot til he drifts off. Over the course of a week or two, you'd put him down slightly more awake every few days and the reduce the patting gradually too.

sunny90 · « **Reply #40 on:** July 09, 2016, 20:30:34 pm »

He's rolled from back to front once, but never swaddled.
WRT gradual withdrawal, how do I know how long to pat him in my arms? Do I take him out of the crib if he gets upset and start all over again and won't it then take ages and ages?

becj86 · « **Reply #41 on:** July 11, 2016, 05:48:47 am »

Quote from: sunny90 on July 09, 2016, 20:30:34 pm

how do I know how long to pat him in my arms?

How do you currently know to put him down? Just observe and see what he does just before that point and put him down gradually earlier in the process of falling asleep.

Quote from: sunny90 on July 09, 2016, 20:30:34 pm

Do I take him out of the crib if he gets upset and start all over again and won't it then take ages and ages?

You can. It doesn't generally take all that long if the routine is right and LO is actually tired. It also is unlikely to take much longer than normally putting him to bed if you do it gradually enough - he will learn in increments.

sunny90 · « **Reply #42 on:** July 11, 2016, 07:59:08 am »

Okay. I've decided he needs longer naps so I want to cut out the catnap, I was able to keep him asleep for longer in the morning and now nursing him at 11 to get a little more snoozing in so he can have his next nap from 230 to 4. Is it OK to try it cold turkey?

becj86 · « **Reply #43 on:** July 11, 2016, 19:07:50 pm »

Quote from: sunny90 on July 11, 2016, 07:59:08 am

Is it OK to try it cold turkey?

Yes, absolutely. Keep it consistent for 3-4 days before changing though, so you know if its working for him.

sunny90 · « **Reply #44 on:** July 11, 2016, 21:34:15 pm »

Thanks! I'll update.

katiebee18 · « **Reply #45 on:** July 11, 2016, 23:54:31 pm »

Both of my older boys took just 2 days of PU/PD (did at 4.5-5 months) and we were golden until DS1 gave me trouble again at 7 months, but DS2 has been a great sleeper ever since. Now if I could only get DS3 on board. I hear ya with having other small children and not having the time. Hang in there!

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Author Topic: Almost 5 mo and pu/pd--will it take ages? (Read 4200 times)