Author Topic: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?  (Read 8308 times)

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Offline SarahE

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Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
« on: June 26, 2016, 02:49:29 am »
Hi there,

I think my 4 month old has been in an overtired cycle from but after turning 3 months...or could be early 4 month sleep regression?

Her naps over the last 4 weeks have only exceeded 30-35 minutes on one occasion when she slept for 1 hr 55. She also started to cry when putting her in her bed and cries more often then not on waking.

I put her to bed in a darkened room, with white noise. She is in a sleep bag arms out and has a dummy.

At night she sleeps between 9-12 hrs, typically 10 hrs with a bed time of 6.30pm-7pm. At night she sleeps in a sleep bag arms out, no white noise, dummy.

She sleeps in our room still.

Dummy doesn't seem an issue as she pops it out at night and when we go to bed I retrieve it from her cot.

I've tried to get more of a routine - previously she fed on demand and slept when she needed - she was sleeping in 1.5-3 hrs blocks. However finding it challenging as find some days she's tired within the A time and some times I see no tiredness cues so when I pop her to bed there is even more crying which leads to an abandoned nap after 30 mins of attempted settling. The A times I've tired is 1.5 hrs. One day following an abandoned nap her A time was 3 hrs and she slept for 30mins the within 30 mins showed tiredness cues so popped her down again and she slept for 1 hr 55...

Any advice and suggestions would be welcomes as its exhausting as it is and she's not getting the sleep she needs. I'm really confused about what to do/try and am second guessing everything now!

Offline SarahE

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Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2016, 06:56:08 am »
From reading the other post I tried this evening putting her to bed earlier -6pm and she woke after 30mins and I was unable to resettle her (shhh patting) fed her to drowsy and she's asleep again....so hope this isn't a pattern for her evening sleeps now... ???  :'(

Offline SarahE

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Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2016, 07:03:21 am »
Sorry to post again so soon, she woke within 10 mins of being resettled and won't settle now...this is unusual for her as normal she start sleeping through the night from this time roughly....

Offline Bella89

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Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2016, 07:16:34 am »
Hi there, and sorry you're having a difficult time. Don't worry, maybe I will be able to help a little?

Please, remember. What works for one baby will not necessarily work for yours. The pattern is one, but routines should be fitted to ones needs.

Could you post your routine from today or yesterday. It would be easier for me to judge what could be wrong.
I.e:
6:30 WU and 8 oz of milk
7-8:30 A time
8:30-9:45 nap#1
...

Is she BF or FF?
What is the weather like where you are? I know this is what's getting into my DS:/ Hot hot hot!!!

Offline SarahE

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Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2016, 07:43:50 am »
Sure and thanks in advance.

Yesterday
7.20 - wake up - nappy change and dressed, breast fed both sides
8.00 - activity - play gym
9.30nap (unfortunately in car but was showing tiredness cues - red eyebrows, different cry when playing, rubbing face so if home would have popped her to bed)
10.05 wake - in car
10.20- feed
11am nap (in car on way home)
11.35 awake (as we go home) and bath (poop explosion) then activity
1pm feed
1.30pm nap (based one tiredness cues)
2.05 wake and activity
3.15 nap (nap based on tiredness cues)
3.40 awake, feed, activity
5pm abandoned nap - activity
5.30pm feed 60ml expressed milk bottle
6pm bedtime routine, pjs, upstairs to room feed both side, story in between, pop to bed drowsy but awake.
7pm sleep

We were using dummy and introduced a comforter but then read comforter (cuddly) can increase risk of SIDS and should be used until baby is 12 month plus so taken that away - had been introduced for 2 days but taken away once asleep at night,


Today.
5.30am wake, feed, popped to bed awake went to sleep just after 6.am
7.10am wake, activity, change, dressed and fed
8.30 - playgym
9am nap
9.35 wake, activity
10am feed - refused second side
10.30am nap - tiredness cues
10.50 nap abandoned crying
11am feed activity
12.20 tiredness cues - down time on mattress on floor (to observe!!) lots more tiredness cues so nap
11.55 wake activity
2pm nap
2.40 wake, feed activity
5.15 pjs, 80 expressed milk bottle, upstairs to bedroom fed one side refused other, story after first side. Popped to bed drowsy but awake. Cried for 10mins, picked up and offered other boob, taken, burped and popped to bed for 6pm.
6.30 wake - could resettle - feed to drowsy :-(
6.45 sleep
6.50 wake
7am hubby resettled - she held his hand and stroked her face.
7.10 sleep.

We haven't  really had a routine...and as you can see we are all over the place....and now I'm struggling to implement one as everything I've seen assuMes baby sleeps for 1.5 - 2hrs for day naps....which my Lo doesn't at the moment.

We are winter here, about 13 degreesin day, room where she sleeps is usually 20-22 in day without hearing and at night 19-22.

Update: not rewoken since 7.10 so in night sleep mode now.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2016, 09:05:29 am by SarahE »

Offline Bella89

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Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2016, 15:14:59 pm »
Gotcha! :) Oh I am so jealous of your winter time right now :)

Ok, so my gut is telling me she needs a little change to her routine, because from what I see here you do have one :) It's just a matter of making it better.
Please read the following:
Time to Transition - 3hr, 3.5hr or 4hr EASY

I feel like she doesn't eat much (although both breasts in the morning seem like here is where she is really hungry after nighttime).
If you extend that cycle from feed to feed, she will eat more and her body would understand the room for a longer nap. Does that make sense?

Of course when you're out and about you can't always create a good routine, because it is what it is. In the car at this age most kids just fall asleep whenever. I was trying to put together a routine for you, but then I noticed that you have 2h of A time and 1h midday.
I would say try to even out these times and extend the time between feedings for the next couple of days.
What do you think?

Offline Bella89

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Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2016, 15:15:56 pm »
Also, this may interest you:
chronological EASY samples, 4-6 months

Offline SarahE

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Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2016, 17:23:06 pm »
Thank you Bella89!

I felt she doesn't eat a lot given the time she is asleep (though she usually wakes between 4.30 and 5.30) I've always gone to her - whimpers and cooing rather than crying - and fed her after waiting 10 mins to see if she resettles. I'm actually waiting the 10 mins now and her cry is like a I really can't be bothered or don't have the energy to cry properly. There are breaks in it but there is defo more crying now the cooing so I'm picking her up to feed as she's slept 10hrs 40 (though that from me waking and hearing her so she could have been awake longer!)  I try to feed both sides as she'll have been asleep for 9 hours (usually as a minimum more typically 10) at that point. Sometimes she falls asleep or is drowsy after one so I pop her to bed, she wakes and then takes about 20-30 mins to settle.

Each time I feed I do one side then offer the other. Sometimes she takes it. Sometimes she refuses. I'm trying to feed on a as close to as poss three hour schedule following advise from HV and family centre....sometimes she's fine with that other times she requests prior - I don't with hold if I see cues though her tiredness and hunger cry are pretty similar! So at the mo the gap between feeding  is 2.5-3 hrs....should I increase this gradually so expand 15 mins over a few days to get it close to the 3-4 hr mark? With the NF I give between 4-5am should I extend from here or extend feed from her 7am ish wake up?

Now for example she has fallen asleep after one boob...,should I wake her for the other or pop her back to bed (she will wake on putting down, or I'll wake to sleep.

I agree A times are uneven...this is from me allowing for action on tiredness cues. Having read some of the other post albeit for different aged babies. I see that. Her tiredness cues could be habit? As I've been trying to extend her naps for 4 weeks now..first week or two involved getting to know my baby a lot better and a change from child guided communication to more of a balance with parent guided communication. The last two weeks I've been acting on her tiredness cues so A time could range between 30 mins and 2 hrs...3 hrs in late arvo/evening.

 I've also tried to feed as close to a nap as poss without feeding her to sleep so that she would be fuller and sleep longer but this doesn't seem to have helped.

How do I adjust EASY after a short nap without having unbalanced A times?

Should I still be trying to pop her to bed earlier at night to help her catch up on sleep?

Thanks so much for your help! I'll read through the links - I'm feeling more positive at this exact moment that I can help her get the sleep she needs...was feeling like I wasn't good enough for her as don't understand how to help her meet her needs  :'(



« Last Edit: June 26, 2016, 17:49:09 pm by SarahE »

Offline SarahE

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Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2016, 17:43:20 pm »
Sorry meant to mention she was weight tested at family centre (weight before and after fed to see what she had taken in) and it was 100g - They considered that sufficient for a long nap - she was then going to sleep so they could observe and try and resettle as I have no luck. I only attempt now for 10 mins and if it's not happened I don't think it will...also if I keep trying eats in to her A time as does trying to relax her enough prior to nap.

I've just popped her to bed having fed both sides and she self settled within 5 mins. Could her not eating a lot link to it sometimes ESP in the day being difficult for her to settle?

With her eating...she is gaining weight sufficiently - 500g in a month, she's currently 6 kg. Is it more about how much she has in one go rather that how much she has overall.

Thanks again for you help!
« Last Edit: June 26, 2016, 17:50:30 pm by SarahE »

Offline Bella89

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Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2016, 20:08:18 pm »
Hi,
I don't want to overstep anyone and of course put your doctor's opinion first. Her weight gain is important (nr1) and overall milk intake (nr2).
But you also have to remember that she is growing up. It always comes down to what you want for your day to look at. Some moms feed on demand, some have a schedule. Obviously you want to feed your baby, but you want the feedings to be effective.
I.e. 1) mom will feed 8 times a day but 1 breast
 2) mom will feed 5x a day both breasts or 1.5 breasts
All kids will have good weight gain and milk intake, but only the second one will have enough calories to play for 2h or sleep for 1.5h. That's a rough example, but shows what I mean :p
Does that make sense?

100g would be like 2.5 oz, 80ml? I really have no idea:/ Sorry
At what age was she tested? Did they manage to resettle?

10 min is a good rule. You are giving her a chance to resettle but respect what she needs :)



Offline SarahE

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Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2016, 21:10:17 pm »
Yes that does make sense.

It'd was last week she was tested - so a week short of 4 months. Yep it's about 100ml. And they didn't manage to resettle her.

this is how our day looks so far


5am-5.35 - night feed
5.40am sleep
7am wake -feed - both sides but didn't take much from first - poss due to 5am NF?
7.30am - Activity - nappy change, dressed (4 month old pics 😊), play gym
8.20am  lower stimulation activity - on bubs nest with toy.
8.40am nap routine starts - upstairs to dark room, white noise -waves crashing, sleep sack, dummy. New bit of routine to help her relax (previously read book but wondered if too stimulating) pop her on my bed, sit next to her, allow her to hold fingers if she wishes, reduce eye contact as she reduces it. When drowsy, pop her into bassinet, have fingers available to hold if she chooses (didn't this time).
8.50 sleep - within a minute of being popped into her bed.


If she only sleeps 35 mins do I need to adapt her A time? But I'll still E at 11 (4 Hr EASY) though will see how she is as may try to get her into 3.5hr EASY and then work to extend to 4hrs?

Offline becj86

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Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2016, 21:19:15 pm »
Hi :) It looks like you're feeding when she wakes from naps provided that's been >2.5hr since last feed, yes? That's pretty reasonable, IMO. The amount of milk transferred is fine, volume doesn't change much with BF, mainly the content of the milk changes with the needs of baby as she grows. At 4 months, your routine would typically look at bit like this:
7 - WU, feed
9 - nap
10:30 - WU, feed
12:30 - nap
2 - WU, feed
4 - nap
5:30 - WU, feed
7 - feed
7:30 - asleep in bed for the night

Maybe try something like that for a few days and see how you go wrt nap extension - if she's regularly waking at 30-35min, you can sneak in a little before that and lay a hand on her to help her get through that rousing without waking so much and see if that helps extend the nap.

If you're worried about milk intake or her being hungry and waking from naps for that reason (though with weight gain of 500g in a month and her sleeping such long stretches at night, I don't think there's anything to worry about), you can try a topup feed say 45min after the main feed at WU from each nap which then pushes the time she'd be ready for another feed later and gives you that reassurance she's not hungry when she wakes from the nap and you can then keep trying to resettle. You can then slowly reduce that time between main feed and topup feed to consolidate into one larger feed.

I think if you keep A times more consistent for a few days, she may be better able to self-regulate her naps and she may settle better.

Sorry, just wanted to add - 35min can sometimes be undertired if baby has a slightly shorter than average sleep cycle, so if you can keep things consistent A time-wise, you'll be able to see that more easily.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2016, 21:20:47 pm by becj86 »

Offline SarahE

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Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2016, 22:45:11 pm »
Thanks Becj86.

If she's not napping for the 1.5 hrs and just the 35 mins, does A time start on wake. Up?

She woke at 9.25 I tried to resettle her (I've also tried sneaking in and helping her through it ) but hasn't worked. At 10.05 she had strong tiredness cues - red eyebrows pulling ears, rubbing eyes, yawning and arching back so I took her upstairs to darkened room and we had 20 mins down time and she fell asleep at 10.30 - I wasn't she whether the time from waking is A time or still classed as S time?

If it's classed as A time should I have been keeping her up long? So the 1.5 hrs? And just adjust my nap timings until she's extending her naps? Or is it classed still as possible S time so downtime and another nap is okay?

Hope I've not messed it up  :-[


Update: I think I messed up - she woke very upset after just over 20 mins 
« Last Edit: June 26, 2016, 23:04:30 pm by SarahE »

Offline becj86

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Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2016, 23:20:24 pm »
A time is from eyes open to eyes shut.

How does she behave when she wakes at 35min?

Offline SarahE

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Re: Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2016, 23:27:17 pm »
Most often wakes with a cry, sometimes wakes with a smile like she does after big night sleep and in am. Once up she settles quickly as is quite smiley. Rarely cries - except when going to bed if not fully relaxed and waking - except after longer sleeps.

Just fed her - 4 hours since last feed and drank for long from both breasts and is fully of smiles now.

Okay gotcha. So I should have kept her awake...what happens then when the change round means next nap is same time as feed...you you just feed say 30 mins earlier?