Catnapping - overtired cycle, how to break it?

[becj86]

Just fed her - 4 hours since last feed and drank for long from both breasts and is fully of smiles now.

That's good, so she can go a while between feeds - and she will take a good amount. You understand the difference between snacking and eating meals, yes? That's essentially what's happening here

what happens then when the change round means next nap is same time as feed...you you just feed say 30 mins earlier?   

Yes, ideally at each waking you would feed but in this case with the short naps, try to work the feeds around the naps.

[SarahE]

Got it thanks.

Does keeping them awake for A time after short nap not contribute more to over tiredness. I got my LO up after last short nap, she's been up 30 mins and is arching her back, rubbing her eyes and whimpering. I have her in swing chair with toy but she looks so tired and has stopped playing with toy...feel I should be putting her down rather than keeping her up?

[becj86]

You can reduce the next A time by a bit, but probably only 30min - to 1.5hr after a short nap. You can by all means put her down, but you did ask how to get longer naps.

[SarahE]

I tried to wait the full A time however she fell asleep during 3pm feed so 30 mins prior to full A time. She woke after 25 mins crying. Was unable to resettle so we are up again...she's constantly yawning, rubbing her eyes and pulling her ears and on/off crying 

[SarahE]

So this is what we looked like today....have included some questions I noted at the time.

7am wake -feed - both sides but didn't take much from first - poss due to 5am NF?
7.30am - Activity - nappy change, dressed (4 month old pics 😊), play gym
8.20am  lower stimulation activity - on bubs nest with toy.
8.40am nap routine starts - upstairs to dark room, white noise -waves crashing, sleep sack, dummy. New bit of routine to help her relax (previously read book but wondered if too stimulating) pop her on my bed, sit next to her, allow her to hold fingers if she wishes, reduce eye contact as she reduces it. When drowsy, pop her into bassinet, have fingers available to hold if she chooses (didn't this time).
8.50 sleep - within a minute of being popped into her bed.
9.20 wake -resettle attempted for 10 mins
9.40 activity - play gym with company (not independent play)
10.05 tiredness cues - red eyebrows, pulling ears, rubbing eyes, cry indicating lay isn't fun anymore - upstairs to dark room, white noise, sleep sack...time spent relaxing her...cuddle til stopped crying and shhing, them popped on bed with fingers available for her to hold and dummy - DOWNTIME? -QU 1 is this still A time?
10.25 popped to bed relaxed and awake, nose stroke and fingers available to hold - held this time
10.30 sleep
10.50 wake - 10 min opportunity to resettle
11am feed - she's taking a lot more and can hear a lot more loud swallowing.
11.25  - activity
12.10 - tiredness cues - downtime/low stimulation activity
12.35 - stronger cues, upstairs, dark room, sleep sack, dummy, lie on my bed, I'm sat next to her - no eye contact from her,
12.38 - drowsy, pop into her bed and sleep within 30 secs. QU2 - should I have kept her up?
1.15 - wake - high pitched crying after initial stretch - assisted resettle
1.40 - sleep
1.53 - wake and crying
1.55 - activity - yawning within 5 min -QU3 could this be habit?
3pm feed - fell asleep feeding after 10 mins...QU4 should I have woken to finish feed and keep A time more in line with morning A time?
3.10 - sleep - moved to her bed
3 35 - woke crying - unable to resettle, up and finished 3pm feed. Was drowsy in feed but crying within 15 mins - activity - however very very upset initial...lots of tiredness cues however these disappeared after an hour and had more smiles and giggles
5.35 - sleep - harder to settle but still only 15-20 mins.
6.08 - wake crying, very very upset.
6.20 - feed - earlier as inconsolable and hungry cues - still fed very well. QU5 - was this wrong?
7.10 - BT routine, pjs, feed top up, book
7.30 - put to bed drowsy but awake
7.35 - sleep
7.40- wake crying Resettled in her bed
7.50 - sleep
8.00 - wake crying - resettled in her bed
8.10 sleep


I'm sure I'm now hearing phantom cries

Any suggestions or tweaks for tomorrow?

I know I need to keep A times 2 hrs or reduce by no more than 30 mins after a short nap.

I must admit I'm pretty anxious as to whether she will sleep through the night still as she's very rarely this difficult to get to sleep at bed time...40 mins...

[SarahE]

Sorry another question. LO is awake 6.10, also heard her awake at 5am - no crying or cooing...a few raspberry noises etc...should I be getting her up or waiting until 7am? Is this considered A time now as eyes are open? Really don't want to start the day off wrong in term of A time....

[SarahE]

sorry, another question...I'm wondering if she's over tired as we are not aware when she wakes up...I know it sounds stupid but  I woke at 5 am and heard her shuffling as mentioned in pp... I planned to wait to see if she resettled or cried out (and I'd treat that as a night fed and resettle her) but I fell asleep 

I woke again at 6 am and she was shuffling again...I crept over to hubbies side and checked video monitor as too dark to see if she was awake by just checking. She was awake. at 6.20 she was cooing and by 6.30am crying out so got her up for feeding....so I'm wondering if on other days she's been up longer than we though coz she's so quiet and that resulting in her first awake time being way too long leading to over tiredness for the rest of the day?

[SarahE]

So I wasn't sure what to do as you can see in my last posts re: when A time started this am or how to tweak yesterday's routine.

So my plan was re: routine to start again and look at doing A times of 1.5 hrs rather than 2 hrs as her naps seemed to get shorter yesterday as the day went on and it took a lot longer to settle her so she could fall asleep at BT.

I also decided that 6am would be start of first A time.

So based on that today hasn't gone to plan - and there have been tears, mine as well as LOs 

Based on the 6am Wake - S was need for 7.30 - at 7.15 started nap routine....she finally closed her eye 1 hour 10 minutes later....during which time there was a quick nappy change due to bowel movement. So her first A time was 2hrs 40 mins. thays assuming she went back to sleep between 5am and 6am.

Please can I have some feed back on yesterday's routine and advice for the remainder of the day?
I'm really really finding it hard after 4 weeks of short naps and I have no physical family support other than hubby.

[becj86]

7am wake -feed - both sides but didn't take much from first - poss due to 5am NF?

Yep, probably the 5am NF. Not really an issue unless she can't get to the next feed.

10.05 tiredness cues - red eyebrows, pulling ears, rubbing eyes, cry indicating lay isn't fun anymore - upstairs to dark room, white noise, sleep sack...time spent relaxing her...cuddle til stopped crying and shhing, them popped on bed with fingers available for her to hold and dummy - DOWNTIME? -QU 1 is this still A time?

Yes, this is still A time. If you have a lot of 'downtime' and don't have enough stimulation, she may still be UT or not nap but what you're doing seems fine for her age.

10.30 sleep10.50 wake - 10 min opportunity to resettle

This waking could well be hunger, so could the cry before you started wind down, though I'd have thought she would keep crying if she was hungry.

12.10 - tiredness cues - downtime/low stimulation activity12.35 - stronger cues, upstairs, dark room, sleep sack, dummy, lie on my bed, I'm sat next to her - no eye contact from her, 12.38 - drowsy, pop into her bed and sleep within 30 secs. QU2 - should I have kept her up?

I think when you see the tiredness cues initially, in case they're boredom - you could change activity without making it low key and see if that helps her stay awake longer. I think 1.5hr A time is reasonable following a short nap, however, so no, I don't think you should've kept her up.

1.15 - wake - high pitched crying after initial stretch - assisted resettle1.40 - sleep 1.53 - wake and crying

Were you trying to resettle her for 25min here before she went back to sleep?

1.55 - activity - yawning within 5 min -QU3 could this be habit?

Yes, yawning can be lots of things - not just tiredness. DS yawns when he has fluid in his ears. He also yawns when he needs to take big breaths, eg. when he has a cold and can't breathe effectively through his nose or after running (and after feeding/crying when he was a baby).

3pm feed - fell asleep feeding after 10 mins...QU4 should I have woken to finish feed and keep A time more in line with morning A time?

Possibly, I probably would have but I'm not there, I can't see her. I don't know her as well as you do.

6.20 - feed - earlier as inconsolable and hungry cues - still fed very well. QU5 - was this wrong?

No, if she's hungry, feed her. She could well be in a growth spurt at 4mo. Its also reasonable to feed closer together in the late afternoon/evening as your supply will naturally drop around this time.

7.30 - put to bed drowsy but awake7.35 - sleep7.40- wake crying Resettled in her bed7.50 - sleep8.00 - wake crying - resettled in her bed8.10 sleep

Did you read about the 'jolts' as she falls asleep - wonder if she's waking when she jolts? That would be most likely IMO. This could also be overtiredness, pain, hunger, overstimulation. I think this will settle once you get a more stable routine going.

so I'm wondering if on other days she's been up longer than we though coz she's so quiet and that resulting in her first awake time being way too long leading to over tiredness for the rest of the day?

This is a possibility. I think from what you've written though, that her OT naps are 20-25min and UT are 35min. I doubt she's lying there for 2hr awake - suspect she's just waking in between sleep cycles, shuffling a bit and going back to sleep.

Has she ever slept long naps?

So, she got up at 6:30, I'd try for the first nap at 8:30 and see how you go.

[becj86]

Based on the 6am Wake - S was need for 7.30 - at 7.15 started nap routine....she finally closed her eye 1 hour 10 minutes later....during which time there was a quick nappy change due to bowel movement. So her first A time was 2hrs 40 mins. thays assuming she went back to sleep between 5am and 6am.

I think this shows she really wasn't ready for a sleep yet. Taking 1:10 to settle to sleep is frustrating for everyone. Better just to keep her up another 30min and then try the nap. It won't be perfect in one day - she's used to much shorter and more haphazard A times - keeping it consistent should help but if you chop and change based on one day, she's got no chance to let her body regulate based on a predictable routine.

[SarahE]

Thanks becj86.

Just so I'm clear, in the morning A time starts when I take her out of her bed rather than time she woke? She was awake when I woke at 6am and cried out at 6.20am and I got her out of her bed by 6.30am.

She has prior to the last 4-5 weeks taken long naps - longest usually after any sensory or swimming were between 2-4 hrs. Due to that I have created a lot of toys similar to baby sensory at home to do during A time...she'd typically sleep between an hour and two yours 2-3 times a day. She's STTN from about 4-5 weeks, as soon as we stopped having to wake her every three hrs to feed due to jaundice.

In last 4-5 weeks she's had two big naps on me - I've had to resettle her one was 2 hrs and the other was 3hrs. They only other time was last week she did 1 hr 55 in her bed. Her A times looking back on it were all over the place. First was 1.15, second was 3 hrs (longer as swimming lesson fell at nap time that day) then about 45- 1 hour A time ( unsure of exact time as we were in car when she woke.)  this is when she did big nap. Other two were 30 mins as were the ones after.

A few people have suggested that she's just a cat napper so I had accepted that but I've notice in the last week she hasn't seemed as happy and is more easily upset or fussy, which is why I posted.

[becj86]

Ok, a lot of babies get branded catnappers at around this age when they need longer awake to sleep better. What we know is that she can sleep long naps - its not like she's never done it. She's probably pretty overtired from so many short naps for so many weeks - give her the 2hr and see how she goes - she may need more but just keep it steady at 2hr (1.5 after a short nap) for a couple of days and see how she settles. 

I would take morning A time from when she's crying and wanting to get up, not when she's cooing and/or shuffling.

[SarahE]

Just tried to pop her to bed with A time of 1 hr 40 as she was falling asleep feeding...I kept her awake so she had a full feed (the feed is early due to strong hunger cues) after I changed nappy, she still seemed tired and given previous short nap thought I'd pop her down. After 15 mins in her bed awake she was all smiles and giggles and kicking her legs....so have go her up....will try again in 15...

[becj86]

Falling asleep feeding is normal for a BF baby - that's why a lot of people feed to sleep

[SarahE]

So I should wake her as I did and wait 10 mins or so....

A question I didn't think I'd ask....I've managed to resettle her 3 times during the last nap...we are now at 2 hrs...should I wake her? Wait til she next wakes up, or given OT, keep resettling her?