More eyes on DD's EASY pls. 9mo, EW, in 2-1 transition

[Scottishmummy]

I would really appreciate another pair of eyes on our routine. DD is 9mo now & I feel that her EASY has been changing every 1-2wks since the 3-2 transition.  We tend to get EW, make a routine change, things improve & settle for a few days, a week at the most then EW starts again & the cycle repeats.

I've found that she has A times of 3-4hrs, which normally increase during the day (she needs shortest A after Wu, longest A before BT).  She also seems to be in the 2-1 already and I have to cap the first nap very short to get a long 2nd one.

The routine which was working a week ago was:

Wu: 6.30 ish
A:3-3hr15
Nap 1: 9.40-10.00 (capped)
A: 3hr30
Nap 2: 1.30-3.30
A: 4hrs
BT: 7.15, fusses a bit, asleep by 7.30

However the last few days she has started waking at 5.40.  I've kept the rest of the routine the same but the EW continues. In addition she's fussing more & longer at BT. Yesterday looked like this:

Wu: 5.40
A:4hrs
Nap 1: 9.40-10.00 (capped)
A: 3hr20
Nap 2: 1.20-3.20
A: 4hrs25
BT: 7.15, fussed a lot, asleep 7.45

Then she was awake briefly at 3.30 but resettle easily then awake again at 5.40. 
She has recently stopped feeding at night (self-weaned from NFs). I don't know if that contributes to EW as she must be hungry by morning.

Any thoughts on what might be going on & how to get a more stable routine would be appreciated

TIA

[becj86]

Have you tried feeding her? Not a habit you'd want to start but if she goes back to sleep, you know what's going on at least...

I wonder if you maybe need to keep it the same for a few more days here to see if that one EW was an anomaly - She might be getting a little OT and really, at this age, there are these anomalies and you do have to wait to see if it repeats or gets worse for a day or two before changing, otherwise the routine doesn't stabilise, yk? She's pretty close to one nap at a pretty young age - has she always been early with these transitions? I ask because DS was and went to one nap early and then I had to backtrack to two naps for a while later and it was very messy. I wish I'd stuck with two naps for longer initially because I jumped possibly a little too quickly to make the changes.

[grace annes mommy]

Hi SM!
J has also dropped the NFs (for the most part) and we are getting 10ish hour nights.  I also suspected hunger, so I've been treating her first feed as a NF (feeding in the dark, in her room) to give her the opportunity to go back to sleep if needed.  She's about 50/50 going back down. 
Do you have a sense of total sleep need?  This has started being helpful here.  We are on summer break, so not in much of a routine as far as predictable A times, etc.  But I do have a vague sense of what she needs re: awake and sleep time to keep us somewhat on track. 

I remember this phase being very unpredictable with DD1 right until we hit 1 nap (at 12 months). Then I set her nap time and we more or less held that routine until nearly 5 yo!  I've been trying to remember that this time around and just roll with it when I can.

[Scottishmummy]

Thank you both.

I don't like to feed her before 6 now, partly because it doesn't make her go back to sleep, in fact she seems to see it as the confirmation of start of the day! And also because I think feeding then cements that as first feed and therefore wu time.

I agree that it seems like a routine for an older baby. DS wasn't on such a short first nap until at least 12mo, maybe slightly older. DD started the 3-2 at 5mo and was consistently on 2 naps only almost from the day she turned 6mo.  I think that's average rather than early though??

That said, I have tried longer first naps but got v long 2nd A then shortish UT 2nd naps and this capping the first at 20mins at least gives us a long 2nd nap and fits with DS too as we can leave the house in the morning and she sleeps when he rests after lunch.

We had a 4.15wu this morning ( ) but I did WI/WO and she resettled herself without crying and woke for day at 6.30 so back on track at least. I'll stick with this routine for another week and see what happens.

Thanks again for your thoughts & suggestions
Xxx

[becj86]

I don't like to feed her before 6 now, partly because it doesn't make her go back to sleep, in fact she seems to see it as the confirmation of start of the day! And also because I think feeding then cements that as first feed and therefore wu time.

Totally fair. Depends upon the child, just some people haven't considered it

I agree that it seems like a routine for an older baby. DS wasn't on such a short first nap until at least 12mo, maybe slightly older. DD started the 3-2 at 5mo and was consistently on 2 naps only almost from the day she turned 6mo.  I think that's average rather than early though??

Maybe a little early, but not by much. My DS was doing something very similar to your DD at this age and it worked beautifully.

If it doesn't settle, you could look at shifting the AM nap a little later but leave the PM nap the same.

[grace annes mommy]

I don't like to feed her before 6 now, partly because it doesn't make her go back to sleep, in fact she seems to see it as the confirmation of start of the day! And also because I think feeding then cements that as first feed and therefore wu time.

Good points!  Worried we may have to enforce the same at some point soon..

Our LOs have followed such similar schedules so I'll be following along, interested to hear how the 20 min. nap pans out.  I'm a total wimp and always take the easy route (never waking from naps, feeding back to sleep for NWs!).

[Scottishmummy]

Thanks again both, I'll keep track of next few days and let you know how we're getting on.

Bec- it's helpful to know that your DS did something similar around the same age so it's not a totally inappropriate routine for her!

Graceanne's mummy- I sometimes think it would be simpler if I just let her sleep as long as she wanted for first A at least and adapted rest of day from there..but DS goes a bit stir crazy if DD takes a long morning nap & we're stuck in & I also found that naps starting after 3pm gave us longer NWs so short am/long pm is our best option.
As for NFs I was feeding back to sleep for NWs but I was really lucky that DD self weaned off the NFs. After we moved her into her own room she dropped to one feed &  just started waking later and later for it until I found I could resettle her without feeds all night. She still doesn't STTN but I don't need to feed to resettle her now so I hope it will happen one day!

[Scottishmummy]

Update:

I have stuck with the 20 min first nap and the daytime routine is working pretty well now. DD is mostly taking set naps now.  I know she's a little young for it but she seems to be going by clock times more than A times and that is also easier for me with DS to juggle too.

Still getting EW though.  I have put an extra black out blind into her room.  I also am encouraging her to find her comforter herself, rather than me giving it/replacing it for her and only doing WI/WO to resettle as picking her up seemed to become a habit she was relying on.

Our day looks like this:

Wu: 5.30-45ish
Get out cot, lights on etc: 6.30
Nap 1: 9.40-10 (capped)
Nap 2: 13.30 for 1.5-2hrs (I wake her at 3.30 if not awake already)
BT: 19.30

I'm reluctant to move first nap much later though as I don't want next nap to start any later as that would push BT later and 19.30 is as late as I'm happy with.
I'm also wondering whether birds are waking her as we must have a few seagulls nesting in our roof/chimney as we hear them really loudly in the mornings.

Maybe I just have to accept the early wake up for now until she's ready to drop that morning nap (or until the seagulls wake later!) Unless she's crying I do just lie and listen to her chatter so it's still restful and she's sleeping through until 5.30 most of the time so it could be worse. On the other hand I worry that she's OT getting enough sleep in total with only doing a 10hr night.

[grace annes mommy]

We are only getting 10 hr to 11hr at the very most here...  I've just opted to put her bt after DD1 so it's more like 8:30/9pm to 7am.  I know that's not helpful for you but just has me thinking that at this stage, it may not be out of the norm to have shorter nights.

Is the shorter a.m. nap making it easier for her to settle in the afternoon or was that just in hopes of ridding the EWs?

Do you use white noise or a fan?  Might help with the seagulls!

[Scottishmummy]

Thanks GAM, that's reassuring. She still gets almost 12.5hr total sleep so maybe that's ok?

The v short morning nap was to get a longer afternoon nap & one that happens around same time as DS is resting too. I tried 45 & 30 min but only got 1hr-1hr15 for 2nd nap..which is then meant earlier BT and earlier waking too.

[grace annes mommy]

Gotcha.  I say if it's working more or less, stay with it for now.  I would find aligning that afternoon rest important also!

She still gets almost 12.5hr total sleep so maybe that's ok?

I'm honestly not sure what an ideal sleep total would be but that's about what we get here.  It's funny, my DD1 dropped to 1 nap by 12 months and probably could have done it earlier but I was so nervous about it.  I always assumed she was LSN, but once on 1 nap, her total sleep actually increased and she held the nap til nearly 5!  Even now, at almost 8, I'd actually consider her HSN.  They're all just so different, yk?  All we can do is offer them the opportunity to sleep and some predictability to their day.  And, hopefully, find something that will balance with the whole family.  Which it sounds like you have.  For now!! 

[Scottishmummy]

Well DD woke at 5am screaming so I think there's some OT building up  I resettled her and was awake happy and chatty at 5.40 again

I thought about becs' suggestion of pushing first nap to 10am & think that is only option left to try. & accept it will be a sling, buggy or car nap sometimes so I can get out with DS. Either that or accept EW and do earlier BT. But the EW is disturbing the sleep of us all & DS is v grumpy when tired.

I'm going to try to catch her up on sleep today & tomorrow with EBT or as long a 2nd nap as she wants then try for 10am nap on Thurs when DS is in nursery.

DH thinks I'm crazy to be striving for a later wu when DD has already slept 10hrs straight but it would be nice to get a later start for us all.

Out of interest GAM- when your DD1 dropped to 1 nap, do you remember what your routine looked like at 12mo? (A long time ago I know!)

[becj86]

DH thinks I'm crazy to be striving for a later wu when DD has already slept 10hrs straight

This can be hunger or OT. L would WU bang on 9.5hr from BT, whenever it was, when OT and 9-10hr then upset on waking can definitely be the OT catching up. She's a baby, not an adult, she needs more than 10hr at night.

[Scottishmummy]

DH thinks I'm crazy to be striving for a later wu when DD has already slept 10hrs straight

She's a baby, not an adult, she needs more than 10hr at night.

I agree! She was awake for day at 5.40, did 20 mins this morning then a 2.5hr nap this afternoon and BT at 7pm. Will see how tonight goes.

[grace annes mommy]

Hope you get a good night.  Glad she had a nice long nap. That will help.  I'd say waking crying is more likely OT.  Our nights are shortish, but she wakes up happy and ready for the day.  It probably evens out a bit bc I'm still not capping as short yet.

With DD1 - I remember I moved her to a set nap time soon after she dropped to 1 nap.  I then did A time to bed.  And actually, she more or less kept that routine for years!  I just nudged the set nap back as needed.  But with her, she could manage monster A times in the morning, but was sensitive to OT at BT, so the A time to bed helped keep that under control.  So she was doing something like:

WU 7ish
Nap 12pm
A time of 4.5/5hrs to bed

If she had an EW, she could push thru close to noon.  If she had a short nap, her bt would naturally be earlier. She was pretty good at tacking on night sleep.  It worked great for her but obviously wouldn't be perfect for every baby.

[Scottishmummy]

That's interesting GAam, thanks. DD definitely isn't ready for that yet. She is very ready for a morning nap.

DS is in nursery today so I pushed the morning nap to 10am. I planned to get DD up after 20 mins then do a 13.30 nap as normal but she was so upset when I woke her that I ended up putting her down again & she went straight back to sleep.

So today has looked like this so far:

WU: 5.40
Nap 1: 10-11.30 (although broken)
I planned for a CN at 15.30 but DD fell asleep in the car on the way home from doing so errands (A=3hrs)
Nap 2: 14.25-15.05
BT-? Try to get to 7pm

Will update later, I think she must be catching up on some sleep.

Not sure what to do if she wants a long mid morning & a mid-afternoon nap too. It's just not possible on the days I have DS as he needs to get out the house by 10 at the latest & again by around 3/3,30 in the afternoon. I might have to try a morning buggy nap and see how it goes.

[Scottishmummy]

We did 7pm BT, asleep by 7.10

She woke at 5.15am calling "mama" but not screaming. I fed her and she went straight back to sleep.  It's 6.55 and she's still asleep    And DS came into our room at 6.30 and announced he wanted daddy to get up with him so I'm still in bed too   

So later morning nap was what she needed.

Not sure what to do for first nap today though ... 10am or 4hr A time which will now be more like 11 or later? And it's likely to be out the house as I can't keep DS in all morning. Will have to see what happens & try for mid-morning naps over the weekend.

ETA: She woke at 7.45. I went for a 4hr A time but it was 4hr15 again before she slept. We were out so she fell asleep in the sling but transferred to cot without waking. So today went like this:

Wu: 7.45
A: 4hr15
Nap 1: 12.00-14.00
Tried for late afternoon CN but DD was wide awake
A: 4hr30
BT: 18.30

Looks like she needs a 4hr15 first A time. Only got 1 nap because of late Wu. If she wakes any earlier tomorrow I think we'll need a short CN late afternoon to get to BT.  I can't believe we've had our first 1 nap day at 9mo! DS was almost 1yo before that happened.

[grace annes mommy]

How are things going for you guys now, SM?  Sorry I've been MIA! We just got back from a trip.

[Scottishmummy]

V mixed tbh, thank you for asking.

She definitely needs 4-4hr15 first A time & that's all I know for sure!

Giving a long nap then and a CN later gave us later morning wake ups (between 7-8am) but worse nights- lots more sad NWs...but she was teething too which might have also contributed.

I decided to try to stick with it though.. But the last couple of days she's only had a 40min am nap, yesterday because we were out with DS & she had to sleep in sling & woke on transfer to cot and today because we had an appointment we had to go out for.  She's had a longer afternoon nap & that has given us a better night but bedtime resistance & EW. I'd try a shorter am nap & earlier pm nap but if she doesn't wake until 7 or later, it seems daft to only do a CN around 11-12am.

Not sure what to do really...Both options are disrupting her (& our) night sleep but I wonder whether I need to go back to long am, do everything I can to stick with it and see if she gets used to it & nights improve now teeth seem to have settled again.
 

ETA: definitely at that point in 2-1 where BT gets later and later on 2 naps... it used to be 6.30-7; then moved to 7.30, this last week it's been 8-8.30 pm...I really want my evening back!

What routine is J on now?

[grace annes mommy]

I think we're just at that really messy part of the 2-1 transition.  Where they're not ready for 1 nap, but 2 naps gives long days or EWs or NWs.  It's a messy couple months..  Then toss in teeth or a cold, etc.  Blech!

We've been out of town and are playing catch up on sleep now.  But, we are more or less holding fast on the same routine as a couple weeks ago, believe it or not:

7am WU
Nap 1 - 11 til 12:30/1
Nap 2 - 4ish - I wake her by 5pm
BT - asleep between 8 and 8:30

Our nights have actually squeeked out to closer to 11hrs.  I'd definitely prefer her in bed earlier, but I don't think that's actually feesible until she finally drops to 1 nap..

I remember this phase being very hairy with DD1 and unfortunately, I think you just have to choose the less of 2 evils to get you eventually to 1 nap, yk? 

[Scottishmummy]

That routine looks very similar to ours did last week on a good day but ours has a shorter 2nd nap as DD seems to manage quite long A times after the 2nd nap.

Can I ask how you fit in milk and meals?
Also how do you fit in activities out of the house for your DD1? That's the part I'm finding hardest with the long am.

DD didn't sleep until 8.30pm last night and woke at 6 this morning so only a 9.5hr night 
Today went like this:
Wu:6am
A= 4hr10
Nap 1: 10.10-11.25 (1hr15)
A=3hrs
Nap 2: 14.25-15.05 (40mins)
BT 7pm asleep 7.10

I thought she was ok on this but was OT by bedtime and crying a lot, needing a lot of WI/WO to settle her then woke crying after 30min (typical OT) but resettled herself. DS is in nursery tomorrow so I'm hoping to catch her up on some sleep then.

[becj86]

It might be worth cutting the CN down to 30min and see if that makes a difference. A 13hr day isn't so unreasonable but off a 9.5hr night, I can see why she was OT at the end of the day Its hard to juggle all this sometimes, isn't it.

[Scottishmummy]

Thanks Bec.  Better day today..

NWs: 12 (had lost comforter); 4.30am (feed); 5.15 (sh-pat to resettle in 15mins)

Wu: 7.30 am
A: 4hr15
Nap 1: 11.45-13.30 (1hr45)
A: 2hrs (I was expecting/aiming for 3hrs but she fell asleep in car)
Nap 2: 15.30-16.00 (30mins)
A:3hr30
BT & asleep easily: 19.30

Will see what night and Wu we get tomorrow.

[grace annes mommy]

Can I ask how you fit in milk and meals?
Also how do you fit in activities out of the house for your DD1? That's the part I'm finding hardest with the long am.

Does your DS still nap?  That would make the long a.m. nap really tricky to maintain.  I did not actually plan to hang on to the long am, short pm nap for the summer, but it actually ended up working well with DD1's swim lessons at 2:15, so for the most part it's the routine we've ended up with.
Here's a typical day:
WU and milk 7am
Breakfast 8ish w/ DD1
out to take the dog down to the river or for some quick errands, chores around the house, etc.  I might offer a 10ish snack especially if I feel like she didn't eat much breakfast.
Nap #1 - 11am to 12:30/12:45
1 on 1 time and lunch with DD1.  Get ready for the pool usually.
Milk when awake from nap. 
Out and about usually to pool these days.  I bring an applesauce or something to offer around 2pm
Nap #2 - 4pmish catnap either out in the ergo or at home.
Offer smaller milk feed around 5pm
Dinner
7:30/8pm - I settle DD1 to bed while J potters around her room and I read books.
8pmish - Then, I feed and put J to bed.

Sometimes I'll reverse the naps if we've made morning plans with friends and do a catnap out and about.  But surprisingly this schedule has held up pretty well fro us.  Hope this helps!

[Scottishmummy]

That's really helpful GAM, thank you. DS doesn't nap now but does need quiet time after lunch.  He also needs to leave the house by before 9.30 in the morning and 3 in the afternoon or he starts climbing the walls...literally!

 Today was pretty similar to your routine for us ...

Wu 6.30
E: 7am milk; 8am breakfast
     Another BF at 10
A: 4hr30- left house at 9 & took both kids to the park for an hour or so
S: 11-13.00
E:lunch 13.00
   BF at 15.00
A: 3hrs went out to play-cafe
S: CN in sling on way home 20mins 16.00-16.20
E: tea at 5pm BF at 6.30
A: over 3hrs30
S: BT 7.30. but took long time (for her) to settle - 20mins- so asleep 7.50- although SS without me needing to WI/WO

I think CN was too long after a 2hr am nap. I know she needs about a 30min CN if she's slept 1.5hrs but maybe she only needs 10-15min if she's done a 2hr nap.  I don't want to push through to BT from 1pm without a CN.

[grace annes mommy]

Yes, I've also been doing some thinking about how the long nap length affects the catnap length.  J's been unsettled around 4am but that could also be teeth. Today I had to wake her from a 2.5 hr+ nap bc we were going out and then she refused a catnap of course.  So 1 nap day here.  I wonder if soon we will teeter totter between 1 nap and 2 nap days depending on how long her a.m nap is.

[Scottishmummy]

Just updating... I thought we'd made the transition to 1 nap earlier this week as DD pushed her A time to 5hrs. We've had

Wu: 6.30
A 5hrs
Nap: 11.30-14.15
BT: 19.30

Wu: 7
Nap: 12-2.15
BT- tried for 7.15/7,30 but DD wouldn't settle until 8pm
We were at my parents' house & she was in a different place which I think disrupted her and they had no blackout blinds/curtains so next day

Wu: 5am
Nap 10-11.30
Nap 3.30-4
BT: 7pm, crying lots, sleep 7.30

Bad night long NW 12.30-2.30am

Today
Wu:5.30
Nap 9.30-10 (capped)
Nap:1pm - (still asleep)
ETA: she slept until 15.20
BT: 19.00 (I expected 19.30 but she fell asleep as soon as she's had her last feed)

Not sure whether unsettled BT, EWs and NWs are from going to 1 nap too soon or from disruption from staying at my parents. Hoping she'll catch up on sleep today and do a better night tonight.

[grace annes mommy]

Not sure whether unsettled BT, EWs and NWs are from going to 1 nap too soon or from disruption from staying at my parents. Hoping she'll catch up on sleep today and do a better night tonight.

Hard to know for sure.  Could be a combination of both.  Hope you both have a better night!
Keep updating as we're going thru some A time shifting too which got interrupted by illness...  Now I haven't a clue!