15 weeks - 3 hours E.A.S plan to self sleep?

[LauraJame]

Hello

I started an 3 hours "E.A.S" a 6 days ago (you can read more at Re: Where/how do I start? )

The transition was fine but he still need 3 night feed (Dream feed did not work yet).

My baby only fall sleeps in my arms while I´m walking and I need to hold him during all nap time...
I´d like to start to teach him to sleep alone now. I only tried a shush-pat (with  PU/PD) once and it did not work at all (I spent 1.5 hours on PU/PD with him awake, so I gave up)

Where do I start? Keep with PU/PD? Another approach?
 
I need my "Y" from the E.A.S.Y

[Scottishmummy]

Hi & welcome to BW.

Self settling and learning independant sleep at this age is really key to getting good naps and nights.

I would suggest trying sh-pat again, have you read the link on FAQ? Shush-pat - How to

I sleep trained my DS between 4-6mo as he needed movement to sleep. What worked for us was:

1) working out his A times - could you post your day in EASY format?

2) a consistent nap wind down routine- before every nap I would do quieter activities with him, then go into the bedroom, blackout blinds and curtains & low lighting, read a story, play the same short bit of music then settle him into his cot in a lightweight sleeping bag and turn lights off.  At first it felt like it was just for my sake but repetition of the same wind down really helped in the end.

3)  I did a combination of an adapted sh-pat & gradual withdrawal. So after WD routine I would cuddle him until calm then put him in the cot and continue to hold him there and sh until he fell asleep (patting and picking up were too stimulating for him and kept him awake longer).
 Once I knew he could sleep in the cot I would cuddle him for shorter and shorter time until I just went straight from WD to into the cot & holding there.
Then I started letting go of him to let him settle himself earlier and earlier so holding until sleepy but not asleep, then after that worked just have a hand on mattress next to him, then just standing by cot, behind cot, by the door, outside door etc.

It took a while but it was worth the effort as he self-settled to sleep ever since, even when we're away from home.

Good luck & pls come back to ask any questions X

[LauraJame]

Hello
Thanks for your time and help!

My E.A.S is a 3-hours basic...
~1.5 hours naps and one catsnap ~30 min at 6PM
Waking at 7:30AM, sleeping at about 8PM (with 3 night feeds)

My "A" usually involves a lot of talking and playing with his toys (on a gym) and some tummy time.
At about 1:15 I start to walk with him to start the nap (about 15min walking until he falls sleep)

After the catsnap I slow down the A, go to bath (but he stays very agitaded during the bath), give a last "E" and walk to sleep.

So, thats it...
I think I ll start a sh-pat attempt next week. Some questions :
During the "naps sh-pat", should I keep the room dark? I read that naps should always be on bright room.
And if he does not sleep during 1.5h of sh-pat, should I skip that "S" ?
Last question about E.A.S.Y, what should I do when things dont work as should? Today he waked from first snap in 40 min, crying out so loud... So I feeded him and my schedule is all messed.

Thanks

[Scottishmummy]

With your routine- does that mean he has about 1.5 hrs awake before the naps?  You might find that he could soon cope with a little longer awake time before the naps at his age.  That might help with settling and getting longer naps: Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!

Re sh-pat- Yes I would suggest a dark room. Some babies are too nosey to settle in a lit room.  I would lower lighting as part of the 4s wind down :
What does a good wind down consist of (Includes 4S ritual)

I personally don't try to settle for the full 1.5 hrs.  If he's not gone to sleep within 20 mins or so, he probably won't settle with sh pat that time and may get OT/OS and more upset & you'll go crazy trying to sh-pat for 1.5hrs! I'd AP the nap in that case & consider whether he might need a longer or shorter A time before the nap or more/less WD next time. Sleep for a baby is too important to miss.

Full disclosure- I had to AP my son's naps until he was 5mo, he just wasn't ready to sleep train before then. My daughter learnt independent sleep around 8-12wks with sh-pat so they're all different and don't feel disheartened if it's hard at first or you need to AP some naps.

Things often don't work as they "should", babies haven't read the books! We just have to adapt and be flexible, even if it means feeding a bit earlier or later or doing a day of short naps if that's what happens.  BW is a routine, not a schedule. Advice for feeding has changed since the books were written and Tracy passed away before books could be updated. Advice now is to feed on demand rather than schedule, especially at this fairly young age.  Every baby is different and the routines in the books are examples but not schedules that have to be adhered to strictly. Have a look at sample routines here and you'll see that they vary between babies of the same age: Sample EASY Routines from 0 - 13mths+
Try not to worry too much about "textbook" and work with your baby's cues instead.

If you want to keep a note of actual feed and nap times & lengths and post a few days it can help to support you & offer suggestions.

[needasleepingangel]

My DD has trouble sleeping in crib too. She is 6 weeks old. Some advice I got from an expert to encourage independent sleep is to first putting her to sleep not moving (we currently use a carrier, but we actually don't walk much, only walk when she is too fussy). Maybe you can start from there.

And another thing is to try only once per day, either 1st nap, or bedtime, for 20 min. My DD is a little too young to start sleep training, so that's what I will do. I don't know for almost 4 months old baby, how many times are appropriate. But you can at least try not walking first. Hope it helps.

[Scottishmummy]

Ah yes, as pp said, if he's used to being held and walked to sleep going straight into the cot might be too much.

You could try an adapted sh-pat, more of a sh-hold.

Try just holding to sleep but not walking for a couple of days
Then try holding until drowsy, putting into the cot and continuing to hold there for another few days
Then try holding until calm and putting in cot and continuing hold there.
Then try gradually reducing how long you need to hold in the cot.

With my DS, I taught bedtime first then tackled naps.  Hope that helps and come back if you want to ask anything more.

[LauraJame]

Hi all...
Thanks for the help !

My week was so awful
I started to try Scottishmummy tips (just hold him at first)...
But suddenly he started to wake 6~7 times per night... Completely nightmare. Each time I have to walk with him again.
He did it 5 days in a row (last night he waked up just 4). Naps also worsened, he is waking at 30min and I need to start to walk again.

So I cant sleep at all

I read about a sleep regression on 4 months, so It is because of it then?
Is anything that  I can do about that?

Thanks

[Scottishmummy]

Huge hugs, that sounds exhausting.

There is a big sleep regression around 4mo- partly growth spurt, partly bug developmental stage and partly changes in sleep patterns which mean that how the baby goes to sleep at BT is how the want to be resettled after every sleep cycle..all night. So if they are walked to sleep at BT, they will look to be walked back to sleep every 1.5-2hrs 

Both of mine went through this and the only thing that helped was teaching IS at BT. 
Would he go to sleep with just holding? Could you walk to get him calm then hold to sleep?
If so, then I would try to progress to putting him in the cot just before he is asleep and continuing to hold him in the cot until asleep. Then you could try progressing as suggested before with gradually holding him less and less.

If naps are a nightmare, maybe just focus on getting self settling at BT for now so he gets daysleep he needs and you at least get a better night's sleep.

Do you want to post how the last few days have worked out in EASY format (actual times for feeds, naps etc). Around this age LOs also increase their A times so sometimes you get shorter naps because they are ready for a routine change.

[LauraJame]

Thanks again!

First of all, what means "BT" ? 
I started to try to just hold him with a white noise (mobile app) ... He only accept that when he is very slepppy. Do you think I have to try that with all naps ass well ?

I am trying to increase the A time, but when he is awake for about 1:25 he begin to show signs of tiredness.


Waked - 6:50
E - 7:00
S - 8:10 (1hr 29min)
E - 9:38
S - 11:16 (44 min)
E - 12:29
S - 13:24 (1hr 46min)
E - 15:20
S - 16:48 (36min)
E - 18:04
BATH
E - 19:51
S - 20:00  (Awaked first time at 23:20 to feed)

------

Waked - 7:30
E - 7:30
S - 9:02 (40min)
E - 10:57
S - 11:12 (1hr 22min)
E - 13:18
S - 14:12 (1hr)
E - 16:32
S - 17:13 (1hr 8min)
E - 19:28
S : 19:48 (Awaked first time at 23:10 to feed)

[Scottishmummy]

Sorry for the abbreviations...BT is "bedtime"

If the white noise helps, I'd try it for naps too. 

That routine looks pretty good for his age..he's getting a couple of longer naps there (is that with you walking to resettle or is he sleeping over an hour himself?)  and total day sleep looks like the right amount for his age. So if he's not ready for more than 1.5 hrs A time yet, just stick with following his tired cues.

Sounds like you're making process with the sleep training. With my DS I had to bounce with him on a birth ball to get him calm but then could hold him until he was sleepy enough to go in the cot.

Keep doing what you need to to get him calm & continue with the holding rather than walking to get him to settle , then moving to holding in cot as next step. It takes time but it sounds like you're getting there with the first step

Xxx

[LauraJame]

Thanks!

Generally in naps he sleeps for ~40 min and wakes so we need to walk to resettle (he fall sleep very fast second time). Sometimes he refuses to sleep again as you can see in my EASY.

So, I will keep with your strategy to walk and stop... Should I do that in all naps and BT? 

[Scottishmummy]

It's up to you whether you want to go for everything at once or take it more gradually.

Personally, I chose to do BT first as it meant DS still got his naps in the day when he needed them so wasn't overtired (OT) by bedtime. It also gave me time to work out the strategy that worked for him and I felt less pressure at BT as it was end of the day...and nights were my priority as I didn't mind resettling after 30-40mins in the day as much as I minded been woken every 1.5-2hrs all night!

[LauraJame]

Hello...

I am back to say my attempts to teach my son to self sleep are not working at all
Trying to holding him still is a mess... He cries a lot and stays very agitaded. So I gave up on this for now.
He continues to wake up about 5 times per night (3 for feed).
His naps get worse and he is fighting a lot to sleep (even walking).

So I really dont know what to do now ... I am hopeless and so tired
Maybe try a more drastic technique? PU/PD ?

Thanks

[Scottishmummy]

Oh no, I'm sorry, you must be exhausted.

How old is he now & is he still doing around 1.5hr A times?  I'm just wondering whether he's not going to sleep because he might need a routine change & maybe more awake time before the naps?

But yes, if sh-pat isn't working you might want to try PU/PD. But first also try tweaking his routine & do a good wind down before putting him into the cot so he's calm and relaxed (if possible!) for the nap.

This is a really useful link on PU/PD: Pick Up/Put Down (PU/PD) - Everything you ever needed to know!

[ireneasheard]

I started with working on day sleeps. As mentioned above it's easier working on day sleeps as you are awake and ready to do it. I fixed bedtime then worked on night resettles. In fact a month ago I fell into accidental parenting and was feeding my boy middle of the night (he is now 4 months old) when he had slept through previously so I then resettled at night instead of feeding as I was confident he was getting lots of food during the day (night feeds were not full feeds just a small feed back to sleep). He has slept through every night since then other than a few random 5.51am wakeups but now 7pm-7am.

i did shh pat with my son initiallyhated it but i don't  shh just pat and put on some background noise (just a gurgly watery background noise he seems to like) and pat him. Now that he is 4 months I'm pu/pd when needed as well. For us persistence was required... and a lot of patience.

[LauraJame]

How old is he now & is he still doing around 1.5hr A times?  I'm just wondering whether he's not going to sleep because he might need a routine change & maybe more awake time before the naps?

But yes, if sh-pat isn't working you might want to try PU/PD. But first also try tweaking his routine & do a good wind down before putting him into the cot so he's calm and relaxed (if possible!) for the nap.

Hello,

He is 4mo and 20 days today...
Actually now he is increased his A to 1:45 ~ 2:00 and the feeds each 3h15 ~ 3h30

[Scottishmummy]

Has the increase in A time made any difference to how he settles for naps?

If not then yes, it's worth trying PU/PD. Have a look through the link on it that I sent.

Good luck
Xxx

[LauraJame]

If not then yes, it's worth trying PU/PD. Have a look through the link on it that I sent.

Good luck
Xxx

Hello...
I started PU/PD saturday (read all the material you gave me) ...
The first time was a bit scary, 30 min crying. But after that its been better (today the slept in 14 min ).

I have some questions about PU/PD
1 - I dont know if he is really falling sleep on cot because after about 10 min he is so tired that when I pick him he is almost asleep. Sometimes I have the impression that he is already asleep when I put down.
2 - Is it ok to 'put down' with one hand under the head?
3 - When he wake at middle of night what I am supposed to do? I am so afraid/tired to start the PU/PD again. So I am holding him for now. Is it ok or am I spoiling the process ?
4 - (Not related to PU/PD) What can I do to extend the naps? He is always waking at 40~50 now (maybe because now he is sleeping on cot?)

Thanks !

[Scottishmummy]

Hi!

Sounds like PU/PD is helping to make some progress...

1). Are you just picking up when he cries?  I wonder whether some of his cries are settling cries (mantra cries) if he's that tired and falling asleep so quickly.  At that age my DD would shout/cry for a very short time as part of putting herself to sleep.  I would stand back and wait to see if her cries settled or were escalating.  I would comfort her if her cries were getting more upset.  This isn't CIO as I was in the room, listening to her and would go to her if she needed me but also had to give her a short time and space for her to settle herself.  How would you feel about standing back a little as you feel he's getting tired enough to be asleep & see if that helps him fall asleep in the cot?

2) yes I think it is OK to have your hand under his head when you put him down but then take it away when he's in the cot

3) In the night, if you don't think he's waking from hunger or discomfort, then I'd try PU/PD again.  You're not spooling the nap ST by holding him..but you might be making your nights more disrupted in the long run. I used PU/PD with my DD at night and it actually worked quicker than I expected and helped stop habitual night wakings.

4) Naps.... Getting him to fall asleep in the cot as suggested in 1 above might help...you can also try PU/PD to extend naps...or try wake to sleep..How do I address habitual wakings? (wake-to-sleep and other methods) Or do you think he's ready for another A time increase? Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!

[ireneasheard]

In the night I slid into accidental parenting and used pu/pd and shh pat to put my son back to sleep. He habitually started waking for a feed every 3 hours but resettling while it happened a few nights he slept through again. The persistence is worth it.l on my experience.

Re naps - again pu/pd and shhh pat has helped us. Persistence during day and nights have been worth it as my son sleeps all night and day sleeps are far better too.

[LauraJame]

Thanks so much for the help!

Yesterday I have finally my dreamed "Y" !
3 1.5hrs snaps on cot with PU/PD

My night was not good, but I started PU/PD when he wakes as well ... Hoping he wakes just to eat in next weeks.

But I´m so happy now. PU/PD is great !!!

[Scottishmummy]

Hooray! So pleased for you!   

Fingers crossed your nights improve soon too.

[LauraJame]

Hey!

I´m back...  My son now is with 5 months and 2 weeks.

PU/PD was working great but now its getting worse. Ill stick with it (i think that regression is normal(?))
He is eating each 4 ~ 4.5 hours and his "A" about 2 hours.

What is bothering me is his waking time...
His BT is always at 8PM ~ 8:30PM. And used to wake at 7:00AM. But now he is always waking at 5:00AM ~ 5:30AM. He wakes happy and for good.
Why is that? Any way to work on that?

Beside that he still waking ~5 times per night

Thanks

[Scottishmummy]

Hmmm, could be time for another A time increase?

Could you post your typical day in EASY format?

[LauraJame]

Hmmm, could be time for another A time increase?

Could you post your typical day in EASY format?

My EASY is a mess in last days :

Waked - 5:30AM
E - 5:30
S - 7:00 (30 min)
E - 9:00
S - 10:40 (1hr 14min)
E - 13:00
S - 14:00 (40min)
S - 16:30 (37min)
E - 17:30
E - 19:30
S (BT) - 20:25

Waked - 6:00AM
E - 7:30
S - 9:00 (40min)
E - 11:20
S - 13:00 (30min)
E - 14:48
S - 16:00 (3hrs!!!) obs.: It´s the second time this week he slept >2.5hrs in last nap
E - 19:40
S (BT) - 21:00

[Scottishmummy]

Hi

EW really mess the day up don't they?    It looks like he is getting a short night and possibly OT naps then crashing every so often for a long catch up nap. What time did he wake up this morning after that long afternoon nap yesterday?

I wonder if he's starting the 3-2 transition? 15 weeks - 3 hours E.A.S plan to self sleep?

If you get EW, I would try to keep him in the cot and keep trying to resettle until as close to 7 as you can.  I think I'd then try to start counting A time from 7am and gradually increase it...so maybe try a first nap around 9.15ish or as close to it as you an get. You might need to stretch to 9.30 after a while.

You might get a short (OT) nap but I'd then try to get a nap after another 2.15-30 & same for 3rd nap (which might need to be cut short to maintain bedtime)

It's the first big nap transition and takes a bit of trial and error to get A times and nap lengths right.

I'm not sure about the NWs though...5 is quite a lot...is it hunger? Discomfort? Is he self settling at bedtime yet?

[LauraJame]

He woke up at 5.30AM after that long snap .
Ill try your suggestions and observe about 2-3 transitions...

About NWs, what is always happening is :
BT ~ 8PM
1 Wake ~ 11:30PM (PU/PD)
2 Wake ~ 1:00AM (Feed)
3 Wake ~ 4:00AM (PU/PD)  Here he keeps waking each 10 or 15 min until the feed
4 Wake ~ 5:00AM Feed
5 Wake ~ 7:30AM

He is not self settling at bedtime. Always wake, kick the bed sometimes and after that starts to cry.

[Scottishmummy]

Maybe he's genuinely hungry at 4am if he keeps waking so frequently until feed..have you tried feeding him then?

Have you tried PU/PD at BT? It seemed to work so well for your naps?