Increase daytime feedings to reduce NFs?

[N_Mom_S]

Hello everyone!

My 7 1/2 mo nurses 2/3 times at night (and he eats quite a lot). I'd like to know if anyone has experience or knows anything about increasing the number feedings during the day in order to have fewer feedings at night, does it work? He nurses every 4/5 hours (depending on how long his naps are) and has solids 1/2h after nursing, 3 times a day. He used to be a snacker - feeding every 2h - and it was difficult to stretch the feeding times but we finally got it, I don't want to risk going back to snacking!!! 

Any thoughts will be appreciated!! 

[N_Mom_S]

Should this be in the breastfeeding forum? I'm not sure now...

[Martini~]

In general I would say that 3x day is a toral minimum at that age to reduce night feeds, and still until 9/10mo I would recommend 4 feeds a day - even if one is smaller.

[N_Mom_S]

Thanks for your answer! I do 4 daytime feedings because I do an extra one before BT, more or less like this:

WU 8:45
E nurse 9:00, solids 11:15
A 3H40
S 12:25 - 1:40  (1H15)
E nurse 1:40, solids 3:45
A 3H15
S 4:55 -5:30 (35m)
E nurse 5:35, nurse 8:00, cereal 8:30
A 4H10
BT 9:40

Do you think 5 or more feedings would help, or not really?

[Scottishmummy]

I would keep the same number of day feeds + trying for 3 full meals a day but then also try to reduce how much he feeds at night. He should then take more during the day at the times you're already offering.

Are you feeding both sides at night? Could you start off night weaning by just offering 1 side at one of the feeds/each feed?

[creations]

Hi, I think 2 night feeds are about normal for a BF baby at this age.  I will move you over to BF board though as you'll get more experienced eyes over there.

[Martini~]

Hmmm and ja he going to sleep independently?

[N_Mom_S]

Thank you both for your answers!

He usually doesn't go to sleep independently, only (very) occasionally. Most of the times with shh pat and a lot of crying.


Scottishmummy, what do you mean by full meals? Yes, I'm feeding both sides and he usually empties them. OK, I'll offer only one if he's sleepy, but he's usually anxious until I offer the second one, so I'm afraid he will cry, what should I do in that case?
And if he eats less won't he wake up earlier for another feeding due to hunger? Thanks!

[Martini~]

At that age you definitely can think also about independent sleep honey. If he wakes every 3-4h at night it might be not hunger but habit and no ability to resettle by himself. Maybe you would like to dig around on sleep forum and look for a solution? It make help tremendously with feeding at night.

[Scottishmummy]

Full meals- baby sized breakfast, lunch and tea!

I think around this age I started gradually reducing the time I let mine feed for...so if feeding both sides, time how long he feeds from 2nd side then gradually take him off one minute earlier every 2-3 nights until it's only 1-2 mins in 2nd side, at which point you can probably just offer 1 side. You can then wean off that side in the same way.
If you reduce the amount (time feeding) very gradually it shouldn't lead to waking fir extra feeds.

I agree with Martini about IS though and trying to teach sleep/resettling without feeding.  Gentle removal plan can help with this:
Gentle Removal Plan

[N_Mom_S]

He's having veggies for breakfast, fruits for lunch and cereal for dinner, is that OK?
Also, I've started to give him his cereal just before BT to see if he lasted longer, but can that be counterproductive?


Last night I tried the gentle removal plan until he was kind of satisfied. He still woke up at the same time for the second feed, and his WU time was similar, a bit earlier. I don't know if in the end he ate less than normal, I guess it was a little less. It's difficult to know when you're breastfeeding! I'll keep trying that, thanks 

About his IS, I've been jumping from one of the forums to the other, we kind of got him to sleep independently (sometimes) when he was about 5mo but he got sick and it's got worse since then. For example, today I just turned on the projector (with music) and he fell asleep by himself, but other days he gets really mad and shh pat only makes it worse. I'll keep watching his A times, I don't know if that's the problem.

[Martini~]

At that age Honey only consistency will work. So if you want him to settle independlty choose any method you feel comfortable with and just stick with it, like gradual withdrawal. However you really need consistency with every nap and bedtime and in my opinion at least for first 6-8h of the night.

Re projector - it may be worth turning it off. It can be too stimulating at that age.

[*Ali*]

Are you feeding from both sides at each feed? And letting LO come off himself? I'd probably add in another feed if you can. Sounds like right now he's feeding more often at night than in the day. He might not be able to get all he needs in 4 feeds.

Is he an independent sleeper or is the BFing at night a prop perhaps? It could just be that he still needs to eat that often though.

Maybe push the solids closer to an hour after BFs to spread the food out a bit. He might take more solid food then as he'll have time to get hungry again.

[*Ali*]

I've just merged both your threads into one to keep info all together.

At 7.5mo I would personally concentrate on milk as that should be the main source of nutrition until 12mo. In the UK we are encouraged to introduce solids slowly moving to 3 full meals between 8-9mo. I know advice varies in other countries though.

[N_Mom_S]

Thank you all for your help!

Martini - is gradual withdrawal the same as gentle removal?

Ali - I'm still a bit confused when you guys mention the term 'full meals'. Are these considered full meals: some veggies in the morning, some fruits for lunch, some cereal before BT?
When you suggested pushing solids closer to an hour after BF to spread the food out, do you mean pushing it closer to BF? I was pushing it to 2h after BF to spread it out.

This is our EASY, any ideas about when to introduce that extra feeding? Thanks!!! 

WU 9:00
E nurse 9:30, solids 11:15
A 3H
S 12:00-1:30 (1H30)
E nurse 1:45, solids 3:30
A 3H
S 4:30 - 6:00 (1H30)
E nurse 6:00, nurse 8:00, cereal 8:30
A 3H30
BT 9:30

E 1:15, E 4:45, E 7:00


WU 8:45
E nurse 9:00, solids 11:00
A 3H15
S 12:00-12:55 (55M)
E nurse 1:15, solids 3:15
A 3H20
S 4:15-6:30 (2H15)
E nurse 6:30, nurse 8:10, cereal 8:30
A 3H30
BT 10:00

E 00:45, rock 3:30 (sh pat didn't work), E 5:45


WU 8:45
E nurse 9:00, solids 11:15
A 3H40
S 12:25 - 1:40  (1H15)
E nurse 1:40, solids 3:45
A 3H15
S 4:55 -5:30 (35m)
E nurse 5:35, nurse 8:00, cereal 8:30
A 4H10
BT 9:40

E 00:35, E 4:00

[*Ali*]

Oh, sorry, I thought your first post said solids were half an hour after BFs. Maybe you meant 1 slash (or) 2 hours and I misunderstood.

I personally would not consider a single food, especially low calorie food like fruit or veg, to be a full meal now. By full meal, I would mean a variety of foods at each sitting, probably including foods from at least 2 if not 3 food groups like protein and/or complex carbs with appropriate fat content plus veg and/or fruit. Like you would have for your own meal only a smaller portion. E.g. For breakfast I might offer an egg, 1/4 slice of toast and fruit. For lunch maybe some cheese, a few bits of pasta, tomatoes and cucumber. For dinner it would be meat or fish plus veggies and maybe a yogurt. Or if you are doing baby food from a jar /pouch for example you can get the meals like tuna pasta bake, chicken casserole and so on.  But I wouldn't be doing that at your DD's age though. I'd expect to reach that stage closer to 9-10 mo. Personally I did baby-led weaning so we did start offering solids three times a day quite quickly but it wasn't full meals for a long time as only tiny bits of the various foods we offered went in to start with.

Do you not offer any protein like meat or fish or eggs? (Or vegetarian equivalents of you are veggie). If not I would start to do that as it will help increase her calories as opposed to offering just fruit and veg for two of the meals. Cereals can also be hard on little tummies so you might want to consider offering those earlier in the day rather than at bedtime if you think that could be an issue. Or not at all. In many countries now they encourage iron-rich food like meat as one of the first foods as iron stores are dropping by 6mo.

One option to try to cut down on the NFs is to offer an extra BF in the day. Looking at your easy it would probably be best to do it as a top up after a solids meal. As I said in my PP she may just not be able to get enough milk in the those 4 daytime feeds to not need to make it up at night. You can either continue with the NFs (it's likely she does need at least one at this age if not 2 anyway) or try to shift those calories to the day.

Working on the independent sleep will also help.

[N_Mom_S]

Oh yes I saw it now, I meant slash but it looks like half an hour, my bad!

Thanks for the explanation about the meals, it really helped! I do put some meat in his veggies, I forgot to mention that.

OK I'll try an extra feed after one of the meals, we'll see how it goes! I had also thought about changing cereal for veggies at night, I'll try that too. We usually do veggies first because he doesn't like them as much, and we offer more throughout the day in case he didn't eat them in the morning.

Thanks! 

[N_Mom_S]

Hello again!

I think it's working! Last night he didn't wake up until 2:20, and then 5:50. I'm offering only one breast each time and I also added the extra feed during the day. We've been working on his independent sleep so that may have helped, thanks for all your suggestions

I have a doubt now: if I want to eliminate only one of the feeds (to keep my supply), should I keep offering less in one feed but both breast in the other? Which one should be easier to eliminate, the first one or the second one? 

[N_Mom_S]

Last night was worse, he woke up at 00:30 and nothing else worked (not even water) so I had to feed him (1 breast), then 3:30 both breasts and 6:30 (one).
 Could it be that he's snacking again, after being used to eat more frequently during the day now?

[N_Mom_S]

The same thing yesterday, I had to feed him three times: 00:30, 3:30, 7:15 (his WU time is around 8:30, I tried to make him go to sleep by feeding him but he didn't want to). The first waking of the night is horrible, he screams a lot 

[N_Mom_S]

More or less the same timing yesterday, but he didn't even finish one breast at each of the feeds (and consequently the 3rd feed came a bit earlier). I'm confused 

[*Ali*]

How's the independent sleep coming along? Is it a prop issue?

[N_Mom_S]

His IS is going much better! He barely cries now, we just have to leave our hand on his back and he goes to sleep soon after that

At night he's always eaten when he's been hungry, so now I don't know if he's using me as a pacifier or if he's doing the gentle removal himself (I only got to do it for 2 days), but that sounds too good to be true. So instead of 2 good feeds at night now he's at 3 short ones, what could be the reason? Any ideas? Thanks a lot!