6 wo, 4-5 night feeds, more NW, normal? How to get long stretch?

[needasleepingangel]

DD is turning 7 wo tomorrow. She has a lot of sleep issue, including short naps, can't sleep in crib, a lot of NW, etc. She is EBF.

Question 1: She usually has 4 night feeds, including two dream feeds at 9pm and 11pm, then 2-3am, then 4-6am. She only gets one long stretch around 4 hours (from 11pm-3am), and that only happened 3 times in the end of her 5th week. Then it is gone, and we are back to every 2-3 hours at night. Is it normal to have 4-5 feeds at night? She spends much less time (around 8min) on my breast at night, but during the day at least 20min. Does this mean that she doesn't need so many night feeds or night feed is just like that?

Question 2: I followed the advice from Tracy's book, to try to give her more milk at each feeding during the day by lengthening the breast feeding time, to try to get a long stretch at night. And it seemed to work. I got from 3.5-4 hours for 3 days. I thought good time was coming. But nope! Not only the long stretch is gone, but also she started to spend less time (average 15min) than before (20-30min). How can I get some long stretch at night again? Is it possible that she get upset about breastfeeding because I kind of forced her to spend more time eating?

Question 3: She has a lot of NW. Usually if she wakes up less than 2 hours from last feed, I would try my best to soothe her but not feed her. Otherwise, I would also try to soothe her, and I fed her if she would start to cry. Her night waking problem is most serious after bedtime (from 7:30pm-9:30) and close to WU(from 5-6:30am). As for these two periods, it is very difficult to resettle her. She keeps waking up frequently with her legs kicking and making a lot of noise. Even if I picked her up, sometimes it is very difficult to settle her. What can I do?

It is so frustrating not being able to settle her when she is crying. I don't know what I did wrong because she did sleep well in the first 3 weeks. Now things just gets worse and worse. More and more problems arise with old problems still there. What went wrong? Please give me some advice. Thank you so much.

A sample of her EASY(yestoday):
E 7:35
A gym etc 15min
S 8:35

E 10:30
A diaper, gym, etc 15min
S 11:33

E 1:40
A 20min
S 2:40

E 4:35
A 20min
S 5:35

E 6:40
A bath and wind down
S 7:40 BT not able to fall asleep until 30min later. But a lot of WU until 9pm.

E 9pm
S still difficult to fall asleep, until 11:05pm, dose off a few times in the carrier or in my arms, but never fast asleep. Crying really hard sometimes. (why??)

E 11:30
S right after feeding

E 2:30

E 4:30

WU around 6:00 and I just hold her for 40min.

[ginger428]

Hi there and thanks for the detailed questions. I (or someome else) will get back to you shortly in more detail but wanted to reassure you that these changes are usually normal at such a young age/stage. Quickly looking over your questions, 1. I personally don't think 2 dream feeds are necesessary. You may even want to take Them out for a couple days  to see how she does. They can always be added back in.
2. Sounds like a growth spurt. 1-2 hr feedings, that can be shorter than usual
3. And regarding EASY... Will have to get back to you on these. In part may be related to eating.

Hang in there and if there arw other updates meanwhile, please let us know.

[needasleepingangel]

Thanks a lot, ginger.

Update for 1. The two dream feeds might be still necessary as her wet diapers during the day are less heavier than before. She spent less time BF now. Actually I have been feeding her completely awake and fussy around 9 these a few days. And she spent similar time nursing as during the day. I also space out the two feeds as well. (recent two days: 9 and 11:30, and 9 and midnight.)

2. I hope it is related to growth spurt. I thought during growth spurts babies eat more and/or sleep more. But DD eats less and also sleep less. I will see what happens during her 7th week.

3. For the period after BT, she used to sleep better. But for the period before WU, she seemed always to be difficult to resettle even though we have used a blackout curtain to get rid of the light problem. Maybe the problems for the two periods are not the same?

Thanks again.

[ginger428]

Are you referring to a night feed as a dream feed? Do you wake her to feed her at 9:00 or is she waking on her own?

According to Tracey and her book, dream feeds are usually done once between 10-11.  Here is some more information on that...

Cluster & Dreamfeeding FAQ's - Starting, how to do it, stopping & problems

She describes how to adjust the last feed before bed in order for baby to be hungry.  LOs can certainly have many night feeds at 7 weeks, especially through a growth spurt, but generally speaking, you want to wake the baby as few times as possible throughout the night.

Could you also post your EASY with the end times of the S? 8:35-9:40.  A times at this age is around 1 hr - 1hr15 mins. How much A time is LO having, even with short naps?

Question 1: She usually has 4 night feeds, including two dream feeds at 9pm and 11pm, then 2-3am, then 4-6am. She only gets one long stretch around 4 hours (from 11pm-3am), and that only happened 3 times in the end of her 5th week. Then it is gone, and we are back to every 2-3 hours at night. Is it normal to have 4-5 feeds at night? She spends much less time (around 8min) on my breast at night, but during the day at least 20min. Does this mean that she doesn't need so many night feeds or night feed is just like that?

Is she draining your breasts at night even though it's 8mins, and do you feel/see her heartily eating or just lightly suckling? If she's not hungry at that time, you'll want to space the feedings out more during the night.

Question 2: I followed the advice from Tracy's book, to try to give her more milk at each feeding during the day by lengthening the breast feeding time, to try to get a long stretch at night. And it seemed to work. I got from 3.5-4 hours for 3 days. I thought good time was coming. But nope! Not only the long stretch is gone, but also she started to spend less time (average 15min) than before (20-30min). How can I get some long stretch at night again? Is it possible that she get upset about breastfeeding because I kind of forced her to spend more time eating?

First, the long stretches come and go as they hit developmental marks.  You won't get a perfect routine, especially at this young of an age. You do want to practice routines, over and over, so she does get exposure and will hopefully associate good things with sleep, eating, playing, etc... Is DD draining breasts during the day? How is she after eating, looking sleepy or wide awake? No, I don't believe she is upset.... LOs are instinctive and eat when hungry, sleep with tired (given the opportunity), etc...


Question 3: She has a lot of NW. Usually if she wakes up less than 2 hours from last feed, I would try my best to soothe her but not feed her. Otherwise, I would also try to soothe her, and I fed her if she would start to cry. Her night waking problem is most serious after bedtime (from 7:30pm-9:30) and close to WU(from 5-6:30am). As for these two periods, it is very difficult to resettle her. She keeps waking up frequently with her legs kicking and making a lot of noise. Even if I picked her up, sometimes it is very difficult to settle her. What can I do?

How do you soothe her? Do you use a pacifier? I think she may be OT, but we'll need to see how much she's sleeping and when she's going down. Have you noticed any refluxing/silent refluxing? Do you hear her pass gas? I wonder if she is having gas pain. Hopefully we can figure out if she is really hungry at this time or not... The sucking motion helps refluxers, but eating more than necessary can aggravate it.

It is so frustrating not being able to settle her when she is crying. I don't know what I did wrong because she did sleep well in the first 3 weeks. Now things just gets worse and worse. More and more problems arise with old problems still there. What went wrong? Please give me some advice. Thank you so much.

I completely understand the frustration, but you did nothing wrong... it's all a part of parenthood and discovering and meeting needs as you go. Trust me, I felt exactly the same way! That I was failing all the time. It is absolutely exhausting and disheartening when things don't go "right," but it will get better.  Your concern and reaching out for support says you are a great parent!

Regarding your update... so she woke herself at 9:00 and you fed her? Have you tried not waking her and can she make it to 10?

[needasleepingangel]

Thanks again for the detailed reply, ginger.

Are you referring to a night feed as a dream feed? Do you wake her to feed her at 9:00 or is she waking on her own?
I never wake her up for feeds. The feed around 9pm used to be dream feed as she went to bed around 8pm, but this was in her late 5th week and beginning of 6th week. Then from near the end of 6th week, although we still have a similar schedule, she couldn't sleep after BT around 8pm. She is fussy until 9pm, so I feed her when she is awake. But unfortunately, she is still fussy and couldn't settle into sleep until around 11pm.

Do you think she just can't sleep too early? But 11pm is way too late, IMO. It looks like she is having another two catnaps in addition to the 4 naps(3 long and 1 short) during the day. The room is completely dark, so it can't be the problem of light. How can I let her sleep a bit earlier so she can have longer sleep at night (she usually wakes up during 7-8am)? update: Tonight she went to bed at 7pm and I nursed her to sleep at 7:30. But then she woke up at 8:13 and was difficult to resettle. She didn't look like that she was awake happily and ready to play. Instead she looked like she was sleepy. But at night, she usually can self-settle.

Could you also post your EASY with the end times of the S? 8:35-9:40.  A times at this age is around 1 hr - 1hr15 mins. How much A time is LO having, even with short naps?
Regarding the end of S time, I always feed her almost immediately after she wakes up. So end of S is likely to be within 5min of the next E.
Her E&A time is usually around 1 hour. We wait for her cues (yawning, or looking into space). Then we start to put her to sleep. It usually takes less than 15min, although sometimes it may take much longer if she is OT.

Is she draining your breasts at night even though it's 8mins, and do you feel/see her heartily eating or just lightly suckling? If she's not hungry at that time, you'll want to space the feedings out more during the night.
I don't think she drains my breast in 8 min. For example, last night her DF was at 11:45pm. Then at 2:40am, she made a lot of noise and I thought she was waking up, so I fed her then. But she just ate for barely 6 min. Then again 4:33am she was hungry and made smacking noise, and I fed her. She ate for 18 min. I think she wasn't hungry at 2:40am, only 3 hours after the DF. What should I do if she really wakes up at 2:40 in order to space out the feeds? We always have to help her fall asleep for naps or at BT. Should I just do what we normally do to help her sleep instead of feeding her?

Is DD draining breasts during the day? How is she after eating, looking sleepy or wide awake? No, I don't believe she is upset.... LOs are instinctive and eat when hungry, sleep with tired (given the opportunity), etc... 
I think she normally drains breast during the day. She is usually wide awake after feeding if she is awake during feeds. Sometimes she is sleepy during feeds, but once we change her diaper, she becomes wide awake.

How do you soothe her? Do you use a pacifier? I think she may be OT, but we'll need to see how much she's sleeping and when she's going down. Have you noticed any refluxing/silent refluxing? Do you hear her pass gas?
We usually hold and rock her, patting and shhing at the same time. In the past two nights, she seemed so fussy and unable to settle, I nursed her to sleep. Is it a bad thing to do? She refuses pacifier. She does not show signs of reflux. She doesn't seem to have gas pain. I massage her belly and do bicycle motion for her

EASY (two days ago):
E 7:35-7:56 eating and burping
A diaper and gym
S 8:20 wind down. Asleep 8:53-9:36. Stirred. Asleep again 10:18-10:44. 

E 10:47-11:15
A diaper, gym 15min
S 11:50 wind down, Asleep 11:59-13:47.

E 13:50-14:!2
A diaper, gym 13min
S 14:40 wind down. Asleep 14:44-16:50.

E 16:52-17:13
A gym 3min, looking around the house
S 17:40 wind down. Asleep 17:48-18:13.
A bath

E 18:40-19:03
A massage
S 19:10 wind down. Asleep 19:20-20:20. Tried to re-settle until 20:30. But she woke up and cried.

E 20:35-20:48.
A diaper, and quiet holding. Started crying 20:58.
S Asleep 21:05-21:50, she woke up and tried to re-settle, with her eyes wide open lying on bed.

E 22:27-22:35. Hold until 22:52, wiggled and feed again 22:52-22:59.
S 23:00-2:23.

E 2:25-2:33.
S 2:34-3:30. Made loud noise, so I feed again.

E 3:30-3:37.
S 3:38-5:35.

E 5:35-5:50.
S 5:50-7:10. WU and tried to resettle her, she slept for maybe 10min and WU completely.

[ginger428]

Hi hun, i'm off on a long trip. Other moderators here and hopefully other bw moms will be here to support you.

[jessmum46]

Hi, just dropping in to support you while ginger is away   Apologies if I miss anything.

DD is turning 7 wo tomorrow. She has a lot of sleep issue, including short naps, can't sleep in crib, a lot of NW, etc.

This is really very normal at 7 weeks, I'd try not to see it as a lot of issues really - erratic sleeping and napping is very much the norm for one so young

A long stretch at night happens when LO is developmentally ready really.  Many babies this age will wake every 2-3 hours and not yet have a long period of sleep.  It may be worth considering though if there is any sort of discomfort causing her to wake that often - reflux for example?  Often babies with reflux like to wake and eat little and often because the milk is soothing. 

7-8 weeks is also peak time for evening unsettledness/colic.  Usually the only babies of this age I see taking really good night sleeps with an early bedtime are the ones not napping well.  It's very common here to see young babies who nap beautifully but don't really settle off for the night until 10/11pm.  Again, although frustrating, this is normal at this age.  Why not wear her in a sling for the evening so she can doze if she wants and then put her down for the night when you go to bed later on?  You might find this helpful too - Typical Amounts of Day and Night Sleep

With the feeds, don't focus too much on the length of feeds.  That's not a good measure of how much milk LO is getting as each mum-baby feeding partnership will be more or less efficient with faster or slower milk transfer.  If she is seeing, pooing (normal yellow seedy poos) and growing well, she is getting enough

(((Hugs))) and try to relax and enjoy her, with the benefit of retrospect I can tell you focussing on numbers and what has 'gone wrong' never makes either of you happy - or better sleepers for that matter!  Enjoy some cuddles xx

[needasleepingangel]

ginger, thanks for letting me know. Have a wonderful trip.

jessmum, thank you very much for your reply. It really helps.

Many babies this age will wake every 2-3 hours and not yet have a long period of sleep.
DD is having a very regular 3-hour EASY schedule during the day. She usually wakes up for feeds every 3 hours during the day. That is why I do not understand why she wakes up less than 3 hours at night. She didn't seem to have reflux problems. I do not know whether I should just feed her when she wakes up in 2 hours or should try hard to sooth her until about 3 hour is reached. Any thought on this one?

It's very common here to see young babies who nap beautifully but don't really settle off for the night until 10/11pm.
Since we hold her through almost all naps, she does nap well. I have tried to extend her A time during the day since her A time is usually just 1 hour, and it seems to help a bit. Her BT is now again between 7-8. I guess maybe she was UT.

With the feeds, don't focus too much on the length of feeds.
I think you are absolutely right on this one. I did not realize that I do get more milk now until two days ago, I pumped 4oz in 5min. I guess maybe that is why she spends less time eating. I am just over-stressed.

Many thanks again, to both of you. I have been feeling much better now. Really appreciate your help.

[jessmum46]

What happens if you try to soothe her instead of feeding at 2 hours?  If she settles back relatively easily I'd give it a go.  If it's a massive battle taking ages I'd probably just feed given how young she is

Glad you are feeling better about things x

[needasleepingangel]

Thanks, jessmum.

What happens if you try to soothe her instead of feeding at 2 hours?
I always try to sooth her first, if it is a lot less than 3 hours. But most of the time I wasn't able to resettle her, as she would start to make very loud noise or cry. I never want to wake up my toddler DS, as it would be more than double the work to sooth two crying kids. LOL Now DD is already 8 weeks old. But this 2-hour and sometimes 1.5-hour NF still persist. I would like to wait until she is 10 weeks old, and I will try harder to resettle her instead of to feed her at night if the feeds are less than 3 hours apart. Do you think 10 weeks old is a good age to do this, or is it better to wait until when she is 12 weeks old?

Glad you are feeling better about things
I have been very nervous this time since with DS I was nursing him to sleep until he was 17 months old. I thought I was doing a good thing for him. But later I read in books that it was not good for his growth. That is why I am extremely stressed about doing wrong again this time with DD.

[jessmum46]

I would expect night feedings that frequent to settle of their own accord all else being well, so if they persist I'd be tempted to consider whether there could be anything else at play causing a bit of discomfort - reflux, allergies etc.  I'm with you though at this early age I think it's reasonable to go with what she seems to need (lots of growth spurts etc) and see how things pan out.

I have been very nervous this time since with DS I was nursing him to sleep until he was 17 months old. I thought I was doing a good thing for him. But later I read in books that it was not good for his growth.

Oh (((hugs))), you won't have done his growth any harm at all!  The only reason we don't advocate it here is that it doesn't allow a LO to develop independent sleep skills which can contribute to lots of night wakings and poor naps.  But never feel guilty about doing it, it is very much the norm in vast regions of the world and it clearly worked for both of you at the time

[needasleepingangel]

Thank you very much, jessmum.

I believe there are a lot of things going on at her age, so the reasons for her fussiness and NF at night may not be the same. Last night, I was up almost all night long, but I guess it was related to her mental leap 2.

It is great to have such a good forum, for moms to help moms. I really appreciate all your help. 

[jessmum46]