How to resettle after 40 mins

[Sunnyday01]

My LO in 6 months old and we have just removed the dummy as he was waking up every 2 hours in the night to be reply gaged so we decided to get rid - it's not going too bad and the amount of time to get him to sleep us reducing. I pretty much out him in his cot, put my hand in his chest and he settles easily.

The main issue I'm having is when he wakes up after 40 mins in his naps, when he had the dummy sometimes he went through and sometimes he needed relugging, but how he us waking up after 40 mins and wing resettle at all, I've tried PUPD but he keeps crying even when I'm holding him so not sure uf that's the right thing to continue doing, also tried putting hand on his chest and talking gently to him but he just gets himself in to such a state. I've been trying to do it fir 40 mins to take him up to when his nap shoukd finish. When I get him up and take him out the room he immediately stops and is his normal happy self again. It's like he's crying to get out rather than still be tired (even though he clearly is)

I'm not sure what to do, advice would be greatly appreciated as he needs his long lunchtime nap really

Just for info here's our easy
6.15 - WU
7 - eat - 9oz
9.15 - nap - max 45 mins
11 eat 9oz
1 - nap - with dummy were regularly getting 1hr 30
3- eat 9oz
4.30ish - depending on how his lunch time nap was we sometimes do a quick stroll in the buggy to get 30 mins max
7 - eat and bed

[creations]

Hi.  It sounds like he has lost part of his self soothing aid by dropping the paci, really all this means is he needs some time to get used to self soothing without it. Is he sucking his fingers or does he have a lovey he can hold?
He may also be a touch UT. although your A times look good I'd have a go at increasing 15 mins for one of them for a few days and see what happens. If you want the first nap longer then increase the first A...but if you like that nap to be short for outings then leave it where it is as a CN and increase the second A time to encourage him to get back into his longer nap after lunch.
W2S at the 30 min mark, hand on chest to sooth him through the lighter sleep and through the transition may also be a big help. Just go in cycles of 3 to 40 days of W2S then hold off to see how he goes alone. Sometimes they just need a bit of help to get back into the routine of longer napping.
You might also consider reducing the weight of your hand at the initial put down for naps, start with it as you normally do then release the weight so that over a few days he learns to nod off without that hand there (you always start with it there as it is part of wind down and soothing, you just change what happens after that for the longer term training), the aim is hands off before he nods off.  This can help him learn to transition sleep cycles again without your help.
Hope this helps x

[Sunnyday01]

Thanks creations, he was definitely relying on the paci to get to sleep, we are now 7 days without it and night sleep is so much better, only wome twice last night and took less than 5 mins to resettle so hopefully we are moving toward that illusive full nights sleep!!

However he is starting to wake early again - around 5.30 and won't resettle, so guess it's time to push that first a time again.

Still having issues with the lunchtime naps, as soon as I go in he is all smiles and as soon as I try to resettle him, he cries because he wants me to get him up! I'm hoping it kind of sorts itself out a bit!

[creations]

You might find increasing both the first A (to discourage EW) and the second (to avoid UT for that nap) could be worth trying for a few days.

If the last A time ends up very long as a result of shorter naps this can also lead to earlier waking in the morning so watch out for that too.

[Sunnyday01]

Brilliant thanks for that advice, we do try to give him a cat nap if he's had shirt naps - but we make sure ges awake by 5 as he goes to bed around. Can a too short A time before bed lead to EW too?

[creations]

Can a too short A time before bed lead to EW too?

I would say that too short an A before BT would more likely lead to either BT refusal, fussing and call backs or middle of the night cot parties.
It's usually good look look at how long LO can/will do over night though. A time aside though, you need to try to judge BT based on how long LO *can* sleep over night. If LO sleeps as long as they can and have finished sleeping then they wake up so if BT is too early then WU can look early.
Not sure that makes sense the way i wrote it.  For example then, my DS only ever did 10.5 to 11hr nights, trying to get a 12hr night was never going to happen.  He didn't do a consistent 12hr night until all naps were dropped at 2.5yo and continued until 4.5yo.
If your LO always does 11-11.5hr nights it likely isn't worth looking for a 12hr night.

[Sunnyday01]

Okm that's good about the time before bed and the last nap, he's generally very good at going to bed so we can't complain too much on that front.

I don't think my LO will do longer than 11 hours really, he generally goes to bed at 7 and wakes up around 6.15 but since taking away the paci, we are getting the regular 5am waking, and like nap times when we go in to resettle (after leaving him for a bit to see if he will self settle but he ends up needing help) he cries more and wants to get up. I am determined not to get him out of the cot at this time as feel it will reinforce 5am as a wake up time, so keep trying to resettle him until 6.15 at the earliest if that what it takes as I feel that is an acceptable wake up time. This morning he woke at 5 and it took an hour to resettle him, I just sat in his room, shushing, and he when he finally went back to sleep he slept for another hour. Hopefully if I keep doing this, he will eventually learn to sleep through that extra 45 mins-hour!

[creations]

Sounds like you are putting a lot of work in with the Wu time - I do think it is worth continuing if you have the stamina for it. He will learn to self settle without the paci at that tricky time in the morning.  You could try moving BT for instance:
- an earlier BT, say an hour earlier, if he wakes at 4am it is likely easier to resettle than 5am, 5am is a really hard time for LOs to go back to sleep.
- a later BT, say an hour later (but do not just extend the A time by an hour, there would need to be a spread of naps or CNs across the day) so that his block of sleep comes later and he is more likely to be tired enough to get through that 5am WU and go past to 6am.
You could try either of these, but ONLY ONE, don't chop and change.  If you pick one do it for at least a week if not longer to see how he settles with it and what effect it has on sleep overall, both day and night.

[Sunnyday01]

Thanks, last night he went from 7pm - 6.15 am with no NWs! Hopefully thus us the start and hit a one off.

Things seem to be getting worse in the self settling front, he us screaming and screaming and is very difficult to settle. This us happening at naps and bed time. We lay him down zip him in his gro bag, sing twinkle twinkle and walk out the room, he instantly starts crying and within minutes he us full blown screaming. Being there and talking to him or placing a hand in his chest doesn't seem to make a difference, it seems to make him worse but I don't want to leave him. I've picked him up a couple if times to try and settle him but as soon as I put him down he cries again - I'm not doing pUPD but just giving him a cuddle.

I'm a bit confused as the first 2 days without dummy we had screaming and then he kind if settked down and just need a gentle hand in his chest and a shush and then one day we left him and he fell asleep himself but now it feels like we are going backwards. My DH is worried that us singing and talking to him will become a new prop. Just when you feel like you've cracked something, something else happens!

[creations]

Increasing the A time, which I think your were going to try anyway, could help with the put down at naps and BT.  He might be UT...unless he is having a ridiculously long A time in which case maybe OT.

The difference with singing and talking to him is that this is part of your wind down so it will remain part of the wind down, even the best sleepers have WD with snuggles and songs etc before they go to sleep, it's just part of getting ready to sleep.  Where it becomes a prop is when you keep going with the singing all the way to sleep and into deep sleep and then start up the singing again to get them back to sleep in the middle of the night.  My DS always had a song before sleep and I did also use that a few times in the night to help calm him if he was really suffering with something but I didn't keep going all night at it...eventually we decided to switch to a CD being played at BT which meant he had more than one song, it's about 30 mins of music.  It doesn't require me to be in the room so I consider it the same as white noise, it just gives him something to focus on while he drifts off.  If he wakes in the night and asks for it though I tell him no, it's night time and everyone is asleep so it's not going back on. That's just how it is, so no middle of the night prop has been formed.

[Sunnyday01]

Hi creations,

Just popped on to get a bit of advice. Since we last communicated naps have been going really well with a really good routibe, however the last few days it's all gone a bit wrong so I'm seeking some advice.

Our easy routine was approx

6.15 -WU
7 - feed
9.15 - nap - 45 mins
11 - feed
1 - nap - generally getting 1hr 30
3 - feed
4.30/5 - used the buggy or a car journey to get a shirt cat nap as probably needed one but wouldn't go in for
7- feed and bed

Over the past few days the morning nap has extended to 1hr 30 which is great but we are struggling with the afternoon nap, we were putting him down at 1 when he slep 45 mins but not we have pushed it a bit so there us 3grs-3hrs 15 from previous WU but we are either getting screaming for an hour with a refusal to go to sleep and as soon as he is out the room he's fine, today we only had 10 mins of fussing but only got a 40 min nap. The timings of the second nap mean the last cat nap has disappeared if he goes for at least an hour but when he's not getting much sleep on his second nap he struggles and is miserable.

I think we are decu italy in that 3:2 nap transition but we just need to extend that second nap for it to work. Our routine on a good day would look like this

6.15 wake
7- feed
9.30 nap (for 1hr to 1hr 30)
11- feed
1.45-2 nap (for 1hr to 1hr 30)
3.30 feed
7 feed and bed.

His 3pm feed is now in the middle of his nap, we are doing bsby led weaning so still relying on milk as although he's eating it's not always much if any. Do you think I should give milk before second sleep and then offer a small amount of waking?

[Scottishmummy]

Hi there!

That proposed routine looks just like what my DD did when she got through the 3-2:
Wu 6.30ish
Nap 1: 9.30-11
Nap 2- 2-3.15/30is
BT:7/7.30

I did the same timing of feeds as you propose as DD was fine having her milk after her nap, she didn't seem to need a top up before it. They don't need to eat much solid food to make it count and if he can manage 4hrly feeds he should be fine waiting a little longer for the afternoon milk

HTH

[creations]

Sounds UT for the second nap now.  As the first nap has become longer he will likely be able to do a much longer A time after a 1hr 30 nap than he could after a 45 min nap which he was getting before.  I see you've increase up to the guidance time of 3hr 15 for that second A time but some LOs need more than that.  You wouldn’t need to increase the first A time if it is producing a good nap as it is. The second A though you could try at 3hr 30 (rather than 3 hr to 3hr 15) for several days to see if it helps.
It's the refusal and screaming in his his room which sounds to me like he is trying to communicate he is not ready.
Do you feel you could try a slightly longer second A time?
The other thing it does is help get through the day by spreading the naps a bit more now that the CN is gone so that the last A time doesn't get over long or BT having to come too early.

[Sunnyday01]

Thanks Scottish mummy, nice to know that my routine on a good day is on the right lines!

Creations, you are right, now he's having longer in the morning he can definitely go longer, I think the routine was so goid we kind of forgot to look at his signals and use the clock, so when he started sleeping linger we were trying to out him down for his next nap at the same time as before and he wasn't ready. Today he woke at 6.15am and went for his first nap at 9.20, I had to wake him at 10.30 as he was getting weighed at 11 and we needed to walk down. Have watched for his tired signs and he started getting miserable about 3hrs 20 so went to his room, read 2 stories and then laid him down, 5 mins if fussing and hiw asleep, will be interesting how long he does sleep for though!

[creations]

Well that sounds really good. Obviously it wasn't a normal day as his first nap had to be capped but it must have felt nicer for you not having an hour of screaming baby on your hands!!

Good luck for tomorrow

[Sunnyday01]

He slept for an hour and a half this afternoon - yay!

Now to adjust my routine again. Think some days will have to APOP in buggy or car to enable us to get out still!

[creations]

I always had DS at home for the first nap (good long one) and car napped the rest.  It was honestly a drag for me because once he was in the habit of the afternoon nap being in the car he was a nightmare to get to sleep in his cot for the afternoon.  Whilst it was great to fit in the baby groups etc by car napping the afternoon I found I longed for a day or two at home and actually that ended up hard because of the nap situation.  I also ended up stuck in the car waiting for him to finish his nap which meant a long boring wait for me! Pros and cons.  I can't imagine another way I could have done it really so it's just one of those things.