Breast feeding during the night has become a prop - 8 months

[Palmira78]

Last night I realized that my DS really has become used to nurse to get back to sleep during the night. He is just waking twice a night, in the past he used to wake 6 times... However most of those times I could just give him the paci or get him to sleep again with a little bit of water from the bottle or stroking his hands. In 5 minutes he continued sleeping. Regarding his naps, they are easy and he only needs the pacifier on his mouth to fall asleep.

Due to some problems with my breasts, last night I offered him my breast milk in a bottle and he got mad, despite he is used to drink from the bottle in the nursery during the day. Then my husband tried the bottle and my DS got really upset. Finally, after being persistent I managed to give him the milk from the bottle, then he was no longer hungry, however I was not able to make him sleep again until I nursed him (after 1 hour of trying everything). I could see that at the end, when I nursed him, he was not really hungry but would not relax without it.

Any suggestions regarding what to do?

[FPT23]

Hi there! I'm sorry your struggling at the moment. Night wakes can be very difficult and very tiring; hang in there! Many hugs

First of all, congrats on dropping the NWs to only twice a night now! That's a huge improvement! ...now, is it possible you can write down your LOs EASY routine? Sometimes, NWs can be due to a slight change needed in their routine. Another thing I'd like to add is that there is a small sleep regression around this time. Mostly developmental and it will pass quickly.

You say your LO is 8 months... I do want to address to you that there is a growth spurt at around 8/9 mths time as well. So please offer a feeding if you feel it could be that too! How much is he eating at the NWs? Or is it just nibbling or using you as a paci? ...if he's taking a good feed I would continue for now ! I think even 1 NF for BFing is still pretty typical.

Another suggestion is teething. Could he be teething and using your breast as a soothing prop as well? If you find he may be teething I would consider medicating as well before BT

Here are a few links I would love to leave as reference. If you feel it is a prop, there are ways you can begin to wean him at nights. It will take time and patience but you will get through it if you'd like to give it a go! Here's the link for gentle removal

Gentle Removal Plan

If you find they are more habitual wakings and he's waking at the exact same times every day, you could also try the following! (Just for reference)

How do I address habitual wakings? (wake-to-sleep and other methods)


I would love to see your EASY routine! Sometimes a little tweaking during the day helps with NWs.. If all else fails you could try the gentle removal plan!

Hope this helps and many hugs! Xo

[Palmira78]

Thanks a lot for your reply. I have been considering your suggestions and I have found them useful. I will tray the gentle removal (I have the original book from Pantley).
He is not teething yet, and he varies the time for the NW. When he eats in NF, he takes the same time as for the day feeds.
I believe that it might be developmental NW and also that he is hungry. He tends to stay from 8pm to 2.00 am without waking (for me that is owesome taking into account the past months).
His EASY goes as follows:
7:00 E - BF
9:45 S (1h)
11:30 E solids
13:00 S (2h)
15:30 E - BF
17:00 E solids
19:30 E - BF
20:00 S
NW at 2:00, 5:00. Also ocasionally at 12:00, at 3:00, 6:00 in addition to the others.
By the way I tried the Dreamfeed and eliminating it and it does not make a great influence...
If you have any suggestions that will be great 

[FPT23]

Hi again

Well looking at your EASY... I think your NWs are partially due to his daytime routine.

First thing that jumped out at me was his awake time. His first nap could be a bit early. That could be why the nap is on the shorter end. He needs to be awake more to take a longer restorative nap. At 8 months most babies A time is between 3-4 hours. Some are getting more. His first A time is 2.45. I would def consider pushing out that first A time a tad more. Increase gently to avoid melt downs ...try increasing by 10/15 mins (depending on how much your LO can take) for a few days. His second nap comes even earlier at only 1.5 hours of A time.

In addition to that, you have a SUPER long A time to his bedtime-- he's up 5 hours to BT. His NWs are due to his UT/OT cycle he's in. You need to tweak his daytime routine. Here are some sample routines so you have an idea of what your looking at:

chronological EASY samples, 7-9 months

Something like:

E 6am
A
S 9am

E 10:30/11 am
A
S 1:30/2pm

E 3/3:30pm
A
S (BT) 6:30pm/7

This is just an idea.. It will vary based on his wake up time and nap lengths.

Try to work on his daytime routine a bit more and see if it helps or makes a difference. Tweak it for the next couple of days/weeks. He will take some time adjusting and it won't happen over night but with time I hope you should see some difference!

I wouldnt add a DF at this age anymore especially if you didn't have much luck. I noticed that when I started having other random NWs from the usual, and I increased A time, they slowly stopped. A mom on here suggested it and it's helped since. His NWs are not habitual then if all happen at diff times. I would try resettling first, then offer to nurse if it didn't work. For example... As you said, NW at 12:00.. Attempt a feed if you feel it is still hunger related... But if he wakes at 3am again, it most likely isn't hunger and I would try to resettle first. As I mentioned, there is a growth spurt around 9 months or so, so it is also worth maybe trying to increase his food during the day-- so he's not making up for it at night. If you think he's hungry at his NWs.

Let me know how it works!

[Palmira78]

Thanks a lot for your good advice.
I agree with you that his naps must be moved a little and that his activity times must be longer. So far they took place in the kindergarten (they put him to sleep when he is sleepy) so I had no much power over them. In addition when my elder son comes back from school in the afternoon then it is difficlut to get any sleep and this is why the very long evenings. However holiday season is about to beguin for us, so I will take care of the naps situation.
Your suggestions make a lot of sense and I thank you for that. I wil let you know how it goes 

[FPT23]

Ohh ok yes it sounds a bit complicated. That can be tricky!

Maybe after spacing out the naps, it will be easier to put down in the afternoon and that can give you free time to handle the oldest as well.

It's tricky, mine is about to BEGIN school again and pick ups land around his afternoon nap-- so I'm going to have to see how that plays out. I understand.

Good luck! Keep us posted

[~*Nicole*~]

FWIW my DD nursed overnight until probably 10 or 11 months. When I slept away one night and DH gave a bottle she refused to eat and went back to sleep. It was more to do with comfort. She actually stopped waking on her own, but it could have had to do with her naps and day routine. I just didn't actively trying to stop nursing. While away in Disney on vacation and way OT she started up again. So I think routine can be a big part of it for some LOs. I hope we get back to NJ NFs soon. She wants to comfort nurse when she wakes at night so at 13 months we're back there with you.

[Palmira78]

Oh well... Did I say it was nothing to do with teething? Yesterday his first 2 teeth appeared. The thing is that he did not show the same signals than his brother so we did not expect the teeth to happen so soon..
Anyway, I am medicating him for the pain - ibuprofen- before bed time but last night he almost woke up every hour. I am exausted. I am giving him cold things for him to bite but he is not a happy baby anymore. His naps are now too short since he is in pain... Does anybody know how long does it take for the babies to get over the teeth pain? I have forgotten already how it was with my previous one..
Any suggestion will be welcomed .....

[FPT23]

Oh no so sorry...

Is he reflux?
Any new solids?
Some new solids too close to BT?
Uncomfortable- new pjs? Bedding?

Have you tried increasing his routine like I had suggested? Did you take a look at the routines above I posted and are posted on the link?

Hugs

[~*Nicole*~]

All babies are different, but generally once the teeth cut through the gums they are much less painful.

[Palmira78]

Our routines are much better and my DS is only sleeping after 3 hours of activity. I followed your advice regarding EASY and I hoped to see results despite his teeth pain.
However last night again woke up a lot and nothing soothed him but nursing.
In the past he was happy most of the times with the pacifier... However now it is impossible. Last night I ended up with the baby sleeping with me since every time I tried to put him back in his cot he woke again and we had to nurse again. It was a never ending nursing story. Could it be a growth spurt?
I have to add that despite his timing for food and sleeping are stable we are temporarily living with my parents (my mum is ill) so I cannot handle a lot of crying in the night since we disturb the whole family...
Perhaps the new scenario is making him nervous as well... I do not know. He nurses to sleep and I feel so guilty to have deployed this bad habit. 

[FPT23]

A new move away from his normal can be the culprit too. There is also a GS around this time so
Hang in there and try and continue his day routine.

Many hugs. Keep us posted

[~*Nicole*~]

I have to add that despite his timing for food and sleeping are stable we are temporarily living with my parents (my mum is ill) so I cannot handle a lot of crying in the night since we disturb the whole family...
Perhaps the new scenario is making him nervous as well... I do not know. He nurses to sleep and I feel so guilty to have deployed this bad habit. 

Honestly, YOU have a lot going on. Your mom isn't well. That's stressful. Your baby isn't sleeping so YOU are not sleeping well. That's stressful. Be kind to yourself.  You are doing what you need to do in order to best handle the circumstances. Your LO knows you are there and that you love him. Nursing to sleep isn't the worst thing in the world. Nursing for a lot of LOs is a comfort thing as much as a food thing. Right now, with his teeth and changes in routine, he may just need a bit more comfort than usual. I would try to comfort him and gradually work on reducing the nursing. But I wouldn't be hard on myself if that's what needed to happen so everyone got more rest and was less stressed. *BIG HUGS*

[Palmira78]

Thanks a lot Nicole and FPT23 for your kind words. I do not know you but they have meant a lot to me.
Indeed it has been a very stressful time for everyone, so I guess that my DS is indeed very sensitive to the changes, teething, home, nervous mum... 

After some improvements regarding the BT, I am currently looking for ways to encourage more independent sleeping. My DS is fine with naps, he sleeps then independently... but he is used to nursing right before sleeping for the night. I am changing his BT routines and trying to nurse before starting those routines, in order to leave him drowsy but awake in the cot. If you can give me some examples regarding what to do for creating a relaxing atmosphere it would be great.
Also some tips regarding what to do if you are in a hotel room to make it like "at home" so the baby does not feel so much the change that would be fantastic. We are going on vacation next week and I am already dreading a little the changes and the impact in our nights...

[FPT23]

Hello! I'm happy to hear there has been some improvements and your open to begin some independent sleep. Hopefully it all works out wonderfully

Some examples for a relaxing atmosphere... It really depends your LO! My baby for instance, is considered a "touchy" baby for sleep only. LESS is more with him. I take him upstairs to put on his pjs, I add some lavender oil drops on his pjs (just a relaxing scent i personally enjoy so I scent his pjs slightly with it) then I simply nurse, in his dark room, with ocean sounds (white noise. He took to it well plus it helped drown out his loud brother in the earlier months haha! It soothes him!) aaaand then when he's done I just lay him down and leave.

Many BT routines consist of a warm bath, lotioning up, pjs, one last feed and some cuddles/story time. I personally don't do all that b/c it didn't work for my baby! A bath OS him and BT would end up being a disaster. I tried for days until I accepted it wasn't for him haha! DS1 on the other hand had and NEEDED the long routine... I used to put his pjs in the dryer to warm them up so after his bath he was nice and toasty hehehe! ...so it really depends but those are some examples. One thing i would def consider is turning down the lights, dimming the house, lower volumes or turn off televisions etc...I feel that also sets the tone for them so they know what's next.

Tips for hotel rooms and babies.... Don't you worry! It sometimes turns out better than expected so stay positive! If you stress, baby stresses! Enjoy your vacation! Things that help are all of the above or whatever you choose your BT routine to be! You see, the routine sets the mood and let's them know what's next. When you put them in their baths, for example, they know BT will follow soon. With my LO, white noise is our magic. That's his trigger to know, it's time to sleep! The same goes for our naps! When we are out and about, I have an app for the white noise and I turn it on, stick it on the side of the stroller, cover him with a blanket to block out distractions and lights...he just knows and he's out. That's how we do on vacations! Stroller naps like that! ....another thing WE do on our vacations, I always take a dark sheet or blanket with some push pins... I cover the bedroom window (some windows don't come with blackout blinds or shades so just in case!) so I can make the room pitch black ...!

Hope this works for you! Many hugs!