Author Topic: Please help - 6mo short naps and so confused  (Read 3308 times)

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Offline magw21

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Please help - 6mo short naps and so confused
« on: August 04, 2016, 02:08:05 am »
Hi everyone,

I'm trying so hard to implement EASY (maybe I'm trying too hard...). Anyway, my 6mo DD has always been a daytime catnapper. From 7 weeks until about 4 months she was sleeping through the night (we were so lucky!), but now she also has random NWs... but that's a different story.

I'm soooo confused about what her awake times should be. Just when I think I've got it worked out (ie she actually has an hour nap or resettles for once), and then BAM, it's all out the window again.

So we usually do a 7am WU/Feed (she's bottle fed). She seems to prefer a 2 hour A time, at least before the first nap of the day. Whether she's in her cot at 8.30 or 8.50, she'll typically be asleep at 9. However, sometimes this first nap is only 30 minutes, sometimes 36-39, sometimes 42, sometimes 45, and even sometimes 50. Occasionally if she does 30-36 she'll resettle herself, but often she's wide awake and I just can't get her back to sleep again. Then I get confused about whether I should just leave her there to 'rest' (the advice of our local parenting centre), or get her up and try again in 20 minutes, or an hour... or let her have the same A time (ie back to bed at 11, which is when her next feed is actually due...).

Fortunately she's happy when she wakes (unless she's got something else going on, like teething). As long as her dummy is still in her mouth she will just lie there, awake. Often if she has lost her dummy she'll lie there blowing bubbles until I go in and replug. The local parenting centre says this is fine (and maybe it is), but that just adds to my confusion about when her next nap should be. If she sleeps for 30 minutes then lies quietly awake for 30 minutes, is her awake time from when she woke, or when I got her out of bed? It doesn't help me work out if she's UT or OT.

Yesterday and today she did a short first nap (yesterday 30, today about 37), and then in both cases *would not* go back to sleep until about 11.40. That's about 2 hours and 15 minutes, despite a short nap... So maybe her A times for the rest of the day should be 2.25?

I feel if I could just crack this first nap then the rest would start working itself out. On a good day when she resettles (rare!), she has her next bottle at 11am and her next nap at about 1.30pm, then her next bottle at 3pm, then a last nap at 3.30 or 4pm. She then has her last bottle of the day at 6.30pm and is in bed for 7pm (though lately she's often not asleep until 7.30pm). I think she might be an 11 hour a night baby. She's definitely not usually getting 3 hours during the day though - it's more like 2.  :-\

Every morning is a battle and my husband thinks I'm trying too hard. I just don't know anymore. Maybe she's just not quite developmentally there yet...  ???

Further info:

We're still getting the hang of solids so she's typically only having them once a day (either at breakfast or lunch, depending on how tired she is).

She's good at self-settling (just not re-settling!). Her nap routine starts with a quiet wind-down activity (a book or a quiet song, or a cuddle with a soft toy). I then take her in her room and turn on a CD (classical music specifically for sleepy babies). I change her nappy if needed, then I get her into her sleeping bag, close the blind and pop her in her cot. I tuck her 'Ellie the Elephant' in next to her (it's a Fisher Price elephant that plays music and vibrates for 10 minutes), and put her Cuski comforter next to her too. I put her dummy in her mouth, and start the elephant music. I tell her to have a good sleep then leave the room. She'll usually be asleep within 15 minutes, if not sooner. She does sometimes lose her dummy (I watch her on a video monitor) so I have to go in and replug, and if she's still awake after 10 minutes I'll sneak in and restart the elephant.

Please let me know if I need to provide any other info. Any advice would be greatly appreciated (feeling very lonely here!).

Margaret
« Last Edit: August 04, 2016, 02:14:40 am by magw21 »

Offline lolsyb1982

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Re: Please help - 6mo short naps and so confused
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2016, 08:59:39 am »
Hi and welcome!

I think your problem is your first A is too short and she's not sleeping long enough for it to be restorative.
At 6 months the average A time is probably closer to or around 3 hours so I would try pushing that first A out. You will probably need to do it in 15min increments every couple of days to prevent OT.
Once she's taking a good nap (1.5hrs plus) you can then do 3hrs to her next nap and then to BT.

If you want to log the next few days in the following format and then pop back with progress I can continue to help you out.

Wu 7
A 2.5hrs
S 9.30-11
A
S
A
BT

How does that sound?
Lauren




Offline magw21

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Re: Please help - 6mo short naps and so confused
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2016, 12:42:16 pm »
Thanks so much for your suggestion! I've been reading tired signs (or trying to), but I'm quite possibly confusing boredom or something else for tiredness. The longer A time does make sense, so I'll definitely give it a try.

The rest of the day today was shocking (her second nap wasn't till about 11.40 and only went for 30 minutes, then her 3rd nap was at 4pm for 40 minutes). She then wouldn't sleep until 8.40pm. Definitely OT by then. :-\ It didn't help that we had to go out this afternoon and then we had someone over for dinner.

I'll keep her up for 2 hours 15 minutes in the morning and see how we go, and I'll keep you posted.

Thanks again!  :)

Offline lolsyb1982

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Re: Please help - 6mo short naps and so confused
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2016, 13:05:14 pm »
Yes at this age boredom can often be mistaken for tiredness so try changing activity or moving to another room for a change of scenery.

Good luck  :)
Lauren




Offline magw21

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Re: Please help - 6mo short naps and so confused
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2016, 12:51:23 pm »
Thanks Lauren. Today was... interesting! Haha.

Louisa actually woke at 6.30, but we didn't get her up and feed her until 7. I counted from 6.30 for her A time though. The day looked like this...

WU 6.30am (up at 7.00am)
E 7.10am
A
S 8.46am-9.23am (Put her in cot at 8.38. She woke at 37 min with dummy still in - snuck in and started elephant, then left her there until 10.05, but she didn't resettle.)
A
E 11.05am
S 11.41-12.22 (Put her in cot at 11.29. She woke at 41 min - snuck in and replaced dummy, started elephant, then left her there until 12.50, but she didn't resettle.)
A
E 2.35pm
S 3.00pm-3.37pm (Put her in cot at 2.52. She woke at 37 min - snuck in and replaced dummy, started elephant.)
S 3.47pm-3.53pm (Thought we had a victory but she was awake again after 5 min!  :-\)
A
E 6.30pm
S 7.15pm (Put her in cot at 6.55.)

After her short first nap I wasn't entirely sure what I should do, so I just went with another 2 hr 15 min A time (roughly). In the afternoon I thought I might be able to stretch her to 3 hours (she has done that accidentally a couple of times before), but it became clear by about 2 that she was getting very tired, so I fed her early at 2.35 (she's normally 4 hourly for feeds) and then started the nap routine straight away. In hindsight I probably should've gone with her tired signs and cut the A time even shorter for that nap. At least she went to sleep relatively quickly tonight and has only woken up once since 7.15. Hopefully she won't have too many WUs tonight. I'd better get to bed in case she does (it's nearly 11pm my time now). :)

I guess I'll try the 2 hr 15 min A time again tomorrow morning...?

Margaret

Offline lolsyb1982

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Re: Please help - 6mo short naps and so confused
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2016, 13:06:01 pm »
Haha the fact that her naps are only 35 odd mins shows that she's still UT for them so I would actually push to 2hr 30 and see how she does. You might find you will need to push on even further quickly to nearer the 3hr mark to get a longer nap.

It may well be a struggle to keep her going as she's used to the short A but do whatever you can to entertain her!! A walk in the garden for the last 10 mins perhaps.

FYI a rough guide to nap length is usually

20/30 mins - OT
35/40/45 - UT
1hr 15 - UT

HTH
Lauren




Offline Mandy.kamal

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Re: Please help - 6mo short naps and so confused
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2016, 14:40:15 pm »
Just popping in to agree. I just had the same issue and actually had to increase my (almost) 6 month old's A times by 30+ minutes to get better naps. We were doing 2hr 15min As and pushed all the way to 2hr 50min, sometimes even 3 hours A time. I couldn't believe she could handle that big of a jump so quickly but she needed it.

So I know it sounds scary to push out A times but these ladies know their stuff :)

Good luck!

Offline magw21

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Re: Please help - 6mo short naps and so confused
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2016, 20:50:40 pm »
Thanks Lauren, and Mandy!

Ah ok, 35 is UT, not OT. Alright, I'll go for the 2.5 hr A time today. After all what have we got to lose? Sleep? Haha.  :P

So even if she has a short first nap, should I persist with the longer A time for the rest of the day too? I've read conflicting stuff on that, and I can't remember what the BW's stance was.

It's so great to have some support on this at last, and to have someone say 'yep, try this'. Thank you so much. :)

Offline magw21

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Re: Please help - 6mo short naps and so confused
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2016, 20:59:42 pm »
PS I forgot to say that things could go a bit pear-shaped this weekend as today (Saturday) we have to go out for a while and Louisa is being minded by my parents. Technically she should be between naps for that though, so might be ok. Tomorrow we have to drive up to visit my husband's family. It's a few hours each way so she should get some decent sleep in the car, but it could be interesting while we're up there. I'll do my best to stick with the A times and log what she's doing. :)

Offline lolsyb1982

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Re: Please help - 6mo short naps and so confused
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2016, 06:14:05 am »
It's hard to say if she has a shorter nap how long the next A time should be as its a bit of trial and error. With mine I've always tried to get as close to the correct A time as possible but a lot of ladies would say to reduce it.
An OT waking is usually far easier to resettle than UT but a lot of people are scared of it (myself especially with dd1) and so end up reducing it too much and then you're in the UT/OT loop.

Just do the best you can whilst you're out and about. You can soon get back on track after the weekend.

Good luck  :)
Lauren




Offline magw21

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Re: Please help - 6mo short naps and so confused
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2016, 09:13:37 am »
Ahh I see. Well, I stuck with the 2.5 A times today and by the third nap she lasted for 50 minutes, so that's a slight improvement. Much to my relief, we don't have to travel tomorrow after all. The trip has been postponed to next weekend, so tomorrow I can focus on naps properly again. I might even aim for 2 hr 45 min A times, but see what you think based on today's schedule...

WU 7.10am (she actually woke up at 6.30, but went back to sleep at 6.45 so I woke her at 7.10... I'm not sure if that was the right thing to do)
E 7.19am
A
S 9.36am-10.22am (Put her in cot at 9.26. She lasted 46 min. I had to go out so I didn't try to resettle her.)
A
E 11.00am
S 12.57-1.34 (Put her in cot at 12.51. She woke at 37 min, no luck resettling.)
A
E 3.00pm
A
S 4.10pm-5.00pm (Put her in cot at 3.55. She woke at 50 min, didn't try resettling as too close to bedtime.)
A
E 6.30pm
S 7.12pm (Put her in cot at 6.57. I considered stretching her until 7.30 for the 2.5 hr A time, but she was desperate by this point so we decided to stick with the usual BT)

Thanks! :D

Offline lolsyb1982

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Re: Please help - 6mo short naps and so confused
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2016, 10:03:49 am »
Yes definitely give another push tomorrow to 2hr45
Lauren




Offline magw21

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Re: Please help - 6mo short naps and so confused
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2016, 12:33:13 pm »
Ok, will do. :D

Offline Mandy.kamal

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Re: Please help - 6mo short naps and so confused
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2016, 18:59:18 pm »
Completely agree! Do the 2 hr 45 min or even 3 hrs and spend that last 20 mins playing quietly or just walking around the house.

Once I jumped straight to 3 hr A times she started doing 2, 2 hour naps again and we dropped the CN in 2 days.

It's not perfect every day and we have to adjust based in WU time but that huge A push worked like magic for naps! It does depend on temperament though. Not sure how you sweet LO is. My first could only handle 5 min A increases at a time. This one can do 30!

Good luck!! Xx

Offline magw21

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Re: Please help - 6mo short naps and so confused
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2016, 13:47:57 pm »
Thanks Lauren for your ongoing support and Mandy for your input! It's so reassuring to hear from people who have had a similar experience. :)

We decided to stick with 2h45m A times today, partly because we weren't 100% sure she wasn't awake before 7.

As it turned out, she didn't cope too well. Her first two naps were short so I think she was OT? She slept a little longer for the third nap but it took her much longer to settle than usual.

Should I step it back a little tomorrow? Maybe try 2h35m?

WU 7.00am (possibly earlier - we woke to our 7am alarm and heard her straight afterwards, but she could've been quietly awake)
E 7.19am
A
S 9.46am-10.18am (Put her in cot at 9.37. She opened her eyes at 25 min then closed them, but she stirred a lot and opened her eyes again at 32 min. No luck resettling.)
E 11.06am
A
S 1.01-1.31 (Put her in cot at 12.53. She woke at 30 min, no luck resettling.)
E 3.47pm (Should've been 3pm - DH goofed while I was having a nap. ::) )
A
S 4.24pm-5.02pm (Put her in cot at 3.59, took her a while to settle. She woke at 38 min, didn't try very hard with resettling as too close to bedtime.)
A
E 6.39pm
S 7.40pm (Put her in cot at 7.06.)

Thanks!
« Last Edit: August 07, 2016, 18:57:05 pm by magw21 »

Offline magw21

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Re: Please help - 6mo short naps and so confused
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2016, 00:19:43 am »
I have to be honest, I'm struggling with this a bit now... Louisa seems to be constantly OT - bags under the eyes, drooping eyelids, more grizzly. This morning she had 2h 37m A time, and then she only slept 26 min. I'm trying to get her to resettle right now, but so far she's just lying there grizzling and if I go in there and try any shushing/patting/nose rubbing etc, she just looks at me with wide eyes. All of my instincts are screaming to get her to sleep more, even if that means lots of short naps. Please help. Is this how it's supposed to be while she gets used to longer A times?

Her night wakings aren't helping the situation either. Last night she woke at about 4.15 (sometimes it's closer to 2 or 3 am, she's a bit random), and she stayed awake for 1.5 hours. I decided to stay awake to see what she did. Most of the time she was just lying there quietly with her dummy in, but as time went on she started doing a low grizzle. I think that's a sound she makes when she wants to go to sleep but is struggling. She eventually nodded off again at about 5.40, and then woke for the day at about 6.40. She also settled later than usual last night, so all up she only got just over 9 hours, whereas normally it's closer to 10-10.5. That's on top of a total of 1h 48m during the day yesterday.  :-\

She doesn't have a night feed - hasn't had for some time. We dropped the 10pm dream feed a couple of weeks ago because she was getting increasingly disinterested in the bottle and annoyed if woken (and we were hopeless at not waking her, so that was pretty much every time). Now she's having 4 larger bottles a day and consistently finishing/almost finishing them. She's also having small amounts of solids 1-2 times a day (she's still not that keen). So I'm not sure if hunger might be a contributing factor to her NWs or if it's purely the effect of being OT/UT.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2016, 00:27:38 am by magw21 »

Offline magw21

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Re: Please help - 6mo short naps and so confused
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2016, 11:24:24 am »
I'm feeling a bit better now than I was this morning when I last wrote... Although I'm not sure what A time to aim for tomorrow.

After I wrote this morning I decided to follow Louisa's lead for her next nap. I gave her a bottle at 11 and put her down after that because she was getting very grizzly and looking tired. She was in bed just over 2 hours after she had last woken up, and asleep 10 minutes later (so basically a 2h 15m A time). She woke up and resettled a couple of times, for a grand total of 1h 48m! She was much happier after that. Her next A time was about 2h 20m - I was keen to get her to have a catnap by 4 at the latest.

Unfortunately her BT didn't go to plan - even though she was in bed just before 7 (A 7pm sleep would've been a 2.5hr A time), she didn't go to sleep until nearly 8pm. She was getting pretty cranky by 2 hours after she had previously woken up, so I don't know if I missed the mark and she was OT...

Here is the day in the usual format:

WU 6.40am
E 7.30am
A
S 9.16am-9.42am (Put her in cot at 9.10. I went in and started her elephant at 26 min because she was stirring, but that may have actually backfired and woken her up. I put her dummy back in too, but she didn't resettle.)
E 11.00am
A
S 11.42am-12.19pm (Put her in cot at 11.33. She resettled herself!)
S 12.21pm-12.40pm (I went in and started the elephant and put her dummy back in, and she resettled again!)
S 12.46pm-1.38pm (Total sleep 1h 48m.)
E 2.50pm
A
S 4.00pm-4.34pm (Put her in cot at 3.38. She woke at 34 min, which was my aim due to proximity to bedtime.)
A
E 6.25pm
S 7.55pm (Put her in cot at 6.57pm. Possibly missed tired window - she was grizzly and cranky and then suddenly started squealing and being a bit hyper. I did a calming BT routine, but she still just lay there for an hour before settling. We had to put the dummy back in and restart the elephant a number of times, though she wasn't crying or grizzling.)

Do you have any ideas about what sort of A time I should aim for tomorrow? Also, what are your thoughts on the idea of a shorter A time before the first nap of the time. Could it be she needs to be 2.25/2.5/2.5, for example?

Thank you!
« Last Edit: August 08, 2016, 11:26:14 am by magw21 »

Offline lolsyb1982

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Re: Please help - 6mo short naps and so confused
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2016, 11:52:25 am »
Glad your day went better than expected!

A lot of LO do have their first A as the shortest and lengthen as they go through the day so if 2.15 gave you a decent nap today aim for that again tomorrow.
It's very much trial and error until you find a routine that works (usually for them to change it again a couple of weeks later). Things do become more predictable once they're on 1 nap!!

Lauren




Offline Scottishmummy

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Re: Please help - 6mo short naps and so confused
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2016, 19:35:34 pm »
Hi

Just popping in to agree with Lauren about the differing A times across the day. 

It looks like she was overtired for the first nap, took a short one then needed a shorter A time to make up and had a long catch up sleep...but then was a bit UT at bedtime me from having a half hour nap after a long 2nd nap.

It's a real juggle to work out routine.  Around this age it isn't unusual for some babies to do a short-long-short routine. My DS never took a long first nap but around 6mo started taking a long pm nap but then I had to cut the 3rd nap short otherwise he took ages to settle at BT, or woke early.  So your DD might naturally fall into a short-long-short pattern too.

I wonder whether it's worth trying 2hrs first A time; 2.5 hrs for next A time and around 2.5 for A after that but then only a short nap.  So aiming for something like:
Wu A 2hrs
Nap 1 9-9.30-45 (assuming she only takes a short nap herself)
A 2.5hrs
Nap 2: 12/12.15- waking
A 2.5hrs ish
Nap 3( if 2nd nap is long) 4-4.30
A: ? 2.5-3hrs?
BT ? Try 7-7.30?

"Touchy/Spirited" DS


"Textbook" DD



Offline magw21

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Re: Please help - 6mo short naps and so confused
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2016, 23:14:01 pm »
Thanks to both of you for clarifying about the differing awake times. Louisa has always tended towards a shorter A time first thing - now I just have to work out what the ideal is, at least for this week.  :P

However, in the spirit of the Olympics I'd like to award Louisa with the gold medal for night sleep. I'm still reeling from the shock - last night she slept for 11.5 hours straight. If she woke up, she didn't tell us! She has never done that before. For a couple of months, from about 2-4mo she consistently did 8 hour blocks, but never more. Since then she has done anywhere between 1 and 4 WUs every night, so last night was a spectacular effort. Let's just hope she can do it again!  ;D

As for the rest of the naps... Yesterday she did three short ones again, but we'll keep tweaking. Maybe she has turned a developmental corner. A few days ago she also started 'talking', doing 'ba wa ga ma na' types of sounds.

Thanks for all your help!