8mo - can I start to get ready for 2 to 1 transition?

[N_Mom_S]

Hello everyone! I'd appreciate some input about my LO's routine and advice about when and how to start getting ready for the 2 to 1 transition. He's 8 months and almost 2 weeks and he's breastfed. Lately, we've noticed an increase in his A times and the need to get him really tired before naps and bedtime. If we do this, sometimes he's able to self-settle for naps, and very occasionally at bedtime. He's teething and practising pulling up, so lots of things going on here! With the increase in A times, if we don't wake him up from naps, we end up with a very late BT.

My main question is, which nap should I start capping, the first one or the second one? Will the 2 to 1 be easier if I start capping the 1st one? Sometimes his 1st one is longer and sometimes his 2nd one, so I don't think there's a real preference there.

Also, will that affect early wakings? They drive me crazy sometimes, they're so inconsistent.

Here are his last couple of days (8:30am to 9:30pm is ideal, we live in Spain):

WU 9:05
E 9:05
A 2H55
S 11:55-1:05 (stroller, that's why the short A time) - (1h10)
E 1:15
E 4:00
A 3H30
S 4:35-6:15 (1h40)
E 6:30
E 8:40
A 3H30
BT 9:45 (lots of crying, can't figure out why)

I did W2S and he lasted until 3:15am, I fed him. Then, water at 6:15am

WU 8:30
E 9:00
A 3H40
S 12:10-1:40 (I woke him up, 1h30)
E 1:45
E 4:15
A 4H
S 5:40-6:40 (I woke him up, 1h)
E 8:30
A 3H10
BT 9:50 (no crying)

NW 00:50 (water), E 2am

After that, he woke up at 7:15am probably due to hunger, but I fed him and he didn't go back to sleep. I think he's compensating it with a long morning nap (in these cases should I let him sleep as much as he wants in the morning?).


As you can see, very inconsistent A times although we shoot for 3h30-3h40, but mostly we watch his cues.

Any advice will be appreciated!! 

[Scottishmummy]

Hi!

Your main question about which nap to cap...it's up to you! Whichever fits best with your days and activities..but also trying to work out whether a longer pm nap affects BT, or whether a long am nap affects the 2nd nap! 

I would try to wake from 1 nap rather than both and be consistent in which nap you want to cut shorter.  He's still taking 2 good naps, so I think I might be tempted to let him sleep in the morning and wake from the afternoon nap to get BT at the time you want.

EW can be caused by several things- including overtired & undertired! Early Waking
It's hard to guess from a couple of days what might be causing your DS to wake.  Maybe keep a record for a few more days, with as consistent a routine as possible and we can look together to try to see if there are any patterns?

[N_Mom_S]

Thank you for your reply!!

I have no preference for any of the 2 naps and it appears as if he doesn't either, that's why I was wondering which one is easier with the 2/1 transition in the future. In the transition, is it easier to eliminate the 1st one?

I'll keep the record and post back, last night it was really good, no EW

[Scottishmummy]

I think it's easier at first to go with long am/short pm, especially if he's taking pm nap quite happily after long am. The long am just gets gradually pushed later and later and the pm gets shorter and shorter.

When you go short am/long pm it's more of a guessing game- how short to cut am nap, when to do pm nap after short am...but it suits babies who need a long A time to bed, who refuse pm nap if they have a long am one, or if you have other older kids & need/want to get out the house in the morning.

If you try one for a week or 2 and it doesn't work, you can change to the other option.

[N_Mom_S]

OK I'll cap the 2nd one, although I'm still not sure how much total daytime sleep he needs. I think he's usually OK with more or less 2h30, but if you have any other thoughts please let me know

The last 3 days, including today:

WU 7:15 (EW)
E 7:15
E 9:00
A 3H50
S 11:05-1:35 (2h30)
E 1:40
E 4:10
A 4H10
S 5:45-6:05 (20M)
E 6:15
E 8:55
A 3H40
S 9:45

W2S -> E 4:30


WU 8:25
E 8:50
A 3H40
S 12:05-1:05 (1H)
E 1:15
E 4:05
A 3H55
S 5:00-6:30 (1H30) I woke him up
E 6:30
E 9:00
A 3H05
S 9:35 (He looked a bit OT but it didn't take long to put him down)

NW 11:00, 00:30, 1:50, E 3:45


WU 7:35 (EW)
E 8:45
A 3H50
S 11:25-1:15 (1H50)
E 1:30
E 4:10
A 3H40
S 4:55-5:20 (25M)
E 6:00
E 8:30
A 3H45
S 9:05

[Scottishmummy]

I'dbe interested to hear how last night went.

Looking at those 3 days & the previous ones you posted, you seem to get earlier waking after a longer 2nd nap...so I would definitely try to get long am/short pm.

It looks like 3hr50 for the first  A time gave you a longer nap than 3hr40?

ETA around 2.5 hrs day sleep sounds within average range for his age.

[N_Mom_S]

You may be right! I've been looking at past logs and I can see that before most of the EW there was a late pm nap!
Although on the 1st day of the last 3 days I posted, there was a 5:45-6:05 (20M) nap and no EW the next morning (and a great night!). But I don't know... I'll try to push the 1st A time to 3h50 (although that long nap may have been catching up from the EW), and wake him up from the pm nap, let's see how it goes Thank you so much!!!!

Last night was interesting... w2s didn't work and he had his 'habitual' NW at around 00:30. Sometimes it disappears but it's mostly there and he always wakes up crying, that's something I can't figure out  Nothing worked and I had to feed him (many other times when w2s fails, just water and holding him works). I fed him again at 6:40 and then he woke up at 9:20am!! I'm pretty sure the 6:40am feeding helped, but maybe the EBT too? It'd be great to keep having 12h nights but I find it impossible to put him down for an EBT with his long A times.

Today it went like this, he went down great at both naps and BT:

WU 9:20
E 9:30 (he didn't eat much), again at 10:30
A 3H25
S 12:45-2:05 (1H20)
E 2:10
E 4:45
A 3H25
S (stroller) 5:30-6:00 (30M)
E 7:20, 8:30
A 3H35
S 9:35


Are we stuck in a 'one day EW/ next no EW' loop? Ideally I'd like him to wake up at around 8:30am, which would put the 1st nap at 12:20, and imagine he sleeps for 1.5h, that would put the 2nd nap at 5:30pm. If the 1st one is 1h, the 2nd would be at 5pm.  I think I should wake him up at 6pm the latest, so in any scenario, he ends up having 2h daytime sleep. Does that sound right? That's more or less what he had today and he was fine, but he also woke up late so that may be part of the reason why.

[N_Mom_S]

And that's exactly what happened today... he woke up at 8:40 and started his 1st nap at 12:35. In this case, should I wake him up from the 1st nap after 1.5h so that he can have a 30m nap in the afternoon (and wake him up again), or should I leave him sleep as much as he wants and then maybe a super short catnap (and wake him up again, probably getting him angry )? Does this mean we need to head towards the 2/1 already? I hope we can delay it as much as possible 

[Scottishmummy]

Hi! Sorry only just seen this..been out with my 2 all day..what did you do about today's routine?

Personally, I would let him sleep as long as he wants for the first nap, but then cut the second nap to however short you need it to be to get BT.  You might find you can get a 2nd nap earlier than 4hrs in the stroller. Around this stage my DD would do about 4hrs to the first nap but I could AP a second nap after 3hrs A time- so not have to cut it super short. I personally don't like waking from both naps as I think that's more likely to lead to OT.
I think a late nap only gives you EW if it's long, a shorter one (under an hour)

Hope that all makes sense!

[N_Mom_S]

Thank you for your help, I really really appreciate it!!!  You're right, we do get shorter A times in the stroller 

Well, here are his last 2 days:

WU 8:40
E 9:10, 11:55
A 3H55
S 12:35-2:40 (2H05)
E 2:45, 4:10
A 3H20
S (stroller) 6-6:30 (30m, woke him up)
E 8:45
A 3H15
S 9:45 (in crib by 9:20 but he cried and cried)

w2s worked, E 2:20, 6:20 water, E 6:55


WU 9:10
E 9:40, 12:30
A 3H35
S 12:45-3:05 (2H20)
E 3:20, 5:40
A 3H25
S (stroller) 6:30-6:45 (15m, woke him up)
E 8:50
A 2H30
S 9:15 (very tired)

w2s didn't work so NW 00:10 (had to rock him), E 1:15, E 4:55

Today he woke up at 8:05am.

I agree with you about the long pm nap causing EW. Now I'm a bit confused about how short to cut it. The first day it was 30m (his cycle I guess) and was able to get to BT OK but then he cried a lot in the crib. He woke up late the next day. The second day it was 15m and he was very tired by 9:15 (he went straight to sleep when we put him in the crib), and I don't know if that has something to do with the first NW, which I didn't get on the 1st day. Again, w2s is a bit of a lottery since I don't know if it's habitual or not, it's been going on for months and I can't figure it out (any thoughts on that would be more than appreciated).


Also, I've gone back to 2 night feeds (BF) after having managed to get only one  I even added 2 extra feeds during the day but they don't seem to have any effect at night. I don't know what role hunger plays in his EW but I'm pretty sure he's past the growth spurt. It seems like I'm never going to be able to wean him at night 

[Scottishmummy]

Hmmm maybe he needs a longer CN? Sounds like he's getting OT on 30mins or less. Maybe try 40-45 mins?

Or..a shorter last A time after the shorter nap?

[N_Mom_S]

Hello again! I've been tracking the past few days to try to see some patterns, but I'm either blind or this kid is totally unpredictable haha.
Thank you very much for your help . I was going to follow your advice about 40-45m but these past few days he's been waking up by himself (not crying) after 35m due to noise or light (he takes his 2nd nap in the stroller now), so I just took advantage of that. We've been having EW after the 35m naps so I'm more confused now than I was before. Can that be OT? Why does he look OT to you, because of the NW? It's true that by BT he's always visibly tired but most days he keeps pulling up and moving around when we put him in the crib, and he hasn't been crying much at BT, the worst day was that one I posted previously.

These are the past few days (starting after the last one I posted), maybe you can spot something I can't 

WU 8:05
E 8:50, 11:30
A 3H40
S 11:45-1:55 (2H10)
E 2:00, 4:00
A 3H50
S 5:45-6:10 (25M)
E 8:10
A 3H05
BT 9:15

NW 10:50, E 1:20, 4:20 (water, rock), E 5:20


WU 9:00
E 9:10, 12:30
A 3H35
S 12:35-2:45 (2H10)
E 3:30
A 3H35
S 6:20-6:55 (35M)
E 8:40
A 2H35
BT  9:30

NW 00:30 (water), E 1:30, E 5:20


WU 8:30
E 9:10, 12:00
A 3H35
S 12:05-2:35 (2H30)
E 3:10
A 3H20
S 5:55-6:30 (35M)
E 6:35, 8:40
A 2H50
BT 9:20

NW 11:50, 00:30 (water, arms), E 2:15, E 4:15, 6:40 arms


WU 7:45
E 8:55, 11:30
A 4H35 (happy! )
S 12:20-2:30 (2H10)
E 3:10
A 3H10
S 5:40-6:15 (35M)
E 6:20, 8:50
A 3H15
BT 9:30

NW 00:00 (water, arms, it didn't work so I fed him at 00:30), E 4:00


WU 7:30
E 8:30, 11:45
A 4H50 
S 12:20-2:30 (2H10)
E 3:00
A 3H15
S 5:45-6:15 (30M)
E 6:35, 8:35
A 3H30
BT 9:45

NW 00:40, E 1:20, 4:15 (water, arms), E 6:30, EW (happy) 7:15, we left him in the crib and he started crying at around 7:45 and then he fell asleep again, until 9:30am.


Things I noticed:
Those long A times after the EW really confuse me. It seems as if he takes his nap at around 12:00-12:20 regardless of his WU time.
Apart from that, I noticed that after 3h05 of daytime sleep on the 3rd day, he had an EW. But the next day too, and he had had his usual 2h45 of daytime sleep the day before.
Night wakings have worsen too, I'll probably have to post in the proper forum for that 


Sorry for the long post, I wanted to be thorough 

[Scottishmummy]

Sorry for the delay in replying ....It's because I'm having trouble working out why you might be getting EW TBH as, before they started your days looked pretty consistent so can't see a clear cause, other than increased NWs.

I saw your NW post. As Lauren says NWs could be developmental as there is a sleep regression at this age, so EW could be related to that...or EW could be OT from the NWs.

Nights and naps can be linked. I wonder whether we should merge your 2 threads? I'll have a think and maybe get some extra eyes on your posts & get back to you

Xxx

[N_Mom_S]

OK thank you, I really appreciate your effort!! And f you think that merging them would help, feel free to do it

[N_Mom_S]

I'll post the last two days because they've been a bit different, in case it helps:

EWU 7:15, we left him in the crib and he started crying at around 7:45 and then he fell asleep again, until 9:30am
E 9:45, 12:40
A 3H20
S 12:50-2:25 (1H35)
E 3:00
A 3H30
S 5:55-6:30 (35M, woke up crying)
E 6:30, 8:15
A 2H40
S 9:10

DF 11:30, E 3:15


EWU 7:05
E 8:40, 11:05
A 4H10
S 11:15-12:55 (1H40)
E 2:00
A 4H05
S 5:00-5:50 (50M)
E 6:00, 8:00 (very little), 8:45
A 3H10
S 9:00

NW 11:30 (water, rock didn't work, fed him at 11:40), 2:10, 3:15 (again water and rocking didn't work, fed him at 3:30), 6:55 (self-soothe)

WU 7:45