8mo - can I start to get ready for 2 to 1 transition?

[lolsyb1982]

Ok i have locked the NW thread now so SM and I can both support you on this post instead.

He does sound OT to me. The first day you posted his A times were around 3.5hrs and his last A was shorter and seems like he STTN and only had the DF.

2nd day his A times are longer, over 4hrs and then a longer A to bed. That was a 14hr day so I think was probably too long and is why he woke several times that night.

What do you think?

[N_Mom_S]

Thank you lolsyb1982!

The E 3:15 of the first night is that he woke up and I fed him, so 2 feedings in total (he's never had a STTN, I wish! haha)

You may be right about OT, although there are some other days with short A times and several NW
The second A time was long because he insisted in pulling up in the crib and he didn't look very tired. In the end he fell asleep by himself. At BT yes, he was visibly tired. If I keep trying an EBT and shorter time there, won't I risk having EWU? Seeing how he woke up at 7:05am after the shorter A time, and at 7:45 after the longer one  So many things going on...

The 2nd day I decided not to DF and see when he'd wake up. He took a full feed at 11:30 and an almost full one at 3:30, I don't know if the 2:10 NW was due to hunger or something else.

Do you still think it's OT? Can he be OT and insist on pulling up in the crib and take a long time to fall asleep anyway? What can I do in that case? I was happy that he fell asleep independently in the end. 


We're going away for 2 days and I'll try to do my best, although I'm sure we'll need some readjusting when we come back 


Thank you both for your help, really really appreciated!!! xxx

[Scottishmummy]

Enjoy your days away and don't worry if naps all go crazy while you're away, they often do!

I'd agree with Lauren about the OT, I find frequent and/or crying NWs are usually OT. Some LOs actually sleep better with an EBT and actually sleep longer. Some catch up with sleeping later in the morning sometimes. Some use naps to catch up...it's trying to work out which suits your LO best.

Your A times vary quite a bit, I wonder why that is?  More consistent A times would make it a bit easier to try to work out what might be going on.
Do you do naps based on A times or tiredness cues or just when he falls asleep if you're out?
Is he self-settling for naps (apologies if I've asked this before)

Once you're back from your days away, could you try choosing an A time for the first nap and sticking with it for a few days and same for 2nd nap and BT? 

Based on the routines you've posted, next time you get an 8-8.30 Wu, I'd try

WU
A: 3hr30
Nap 1 (long)
A: 3hrs
Nap 2: (short up to 45mins?)
A: 2.5-3hrs
BT

Forgot to add... Re Night feeds...I had to wean both of mine off night feeds. With DD Indid what you do and tried to resettle without feeding and this gradually pushed feeds later until she stopped waking,

This didn't work for my DS though, he wouldn't resettle without a feed, so for him I had to gradually reduce the time I fed him for, by about a minute every 2-3 nights until he would resettle without the feed.

[N_Mom_S]

Thank you Scottishmummy!

He self-settles most of the time (except for NW), sometimes he just needs a hand on his back. On normal days without EWU we try 3h40-3h45 A time. Sometimes he goes to sleep immediately and sometimes he wants to pull up and move around and it takes him 20 min to fall asleep or more, that's why the A times are so different. On days with EWU we were trying the same but we noticed it took longer to put him down and that he was falling asleep almost at the same time as the normal days, with longer A times. This may worsen the OT but I don't know what to do differently if he decides to fight it and practise pulling up  But today for example he was OT and did 3h15 in his first A time, after EWU.
I'll try the routine you suggested, although it looks like much less time than what he's used to and he may just decide to stay up in the crib for a while... Should I also try it on EWU days?

Also, after these 2 days of OT he slept for quite a long stretch last night, without wakings the first part of the night, only up for feeds. He woke up early in the morning though, at 7:15. Does this mean anything? He may have just been too tired even to wake up crying and the other nights he was OT but in a lower degree  haha

Re: night feeds, I tried gentle removal about a month ago and he went from 2 full feeds to 3 small ones so I considered it a failure But your '1 minute less' method sounds interesting, I'll give it a try when things settle down a little bit, thanks  

[Scottishmummy]

Hi again! Hope you had a good trip away.

With EW, I actually tried to keep the first nap around the same time as normal waking even though wu was earlier and A time longer. If they are just lying in bed with early waking they can do longer A time afterwards.

Two options to consider if your EW continues,

1) push first A time a little longer (4hrs?) or
2) try  switching to short am/long pm...trying a short am nap (under an hour) and then try for a longer pm nap?

[N_Mom_S]

Thank you!!

We do the same thing, after an EW we try to put him down at around the same time as normal. So we've been doing it but EW continue coming, although it may be a mix of that and something else Should I try the second option then? I'm scared to try that since his first nap is consistently good, I don't want to mess it up 

I have a question re: your weaning method, did you just have to wean one feed or more? I don't know if I should do one minute less in each one or first wean one and then the other. I timed them yesterday and they're 11-12min each.

[Scottishmummy]

Night weaning first as that's the easier one to answer! I had 3 NFs to wean with DS! I did one at a time. I started with the earliest one (he woke around 10.30/11) and weaned him off that first then did the 2/3am one after that and the 4/5am one last.

Re - naps. I'm really not sure but here are a couple of thoughts for continuing with long am/short pm:

Another thing to consider is whether he might be only doing a short night from being OT? Someone told me a 9-10hr night can be OT. So if you want to keep long am (& I understand that)..could you try an earlier, slightly longer 2nd nap (in case OT is there as waking crying after 30mins ish suggests it might be) or an earlier BT if you are get a short, possibly OT 2nd nap? See if he catches up on some sleep?

If that doesn't work then,  with always taking the nap around the same time, it might be that the time of the nap is maintaining the EW. The solution then would be to try pushing the start of the nap a little later. Even just 15mins might make a difference. The flip side of this is it does risk some OT.. But sometimes a LO will resettle from EW if OT go back to sleep and re-set the wake up time.

What do you think?

[N_Mom_S]

In your last paragraph you're talking about the am nap, right?

Is waking up crying after 40-45min also OT? He's still catching up from the trip (last night 11h30, this morning's nap was 3h) and his pm nap was 40min today, and he woke up crying. Yesterday's EBT (8:30pm) worked great but I guess today it won't be possible after that 3h nap delaying everything, we'll see! I'll keep you're suggestions in mind, thanks!

[Scottishmummy]

In your last paragraph you're talking about the am nap, right?

Yes, sorry if that was unclear .

Is waking up crying after 40-45min also OT?

Waking crying is often a sign of an OT nap. He might go to bed a bit early if still catch up on sleep? Worth a try?

[Scottishmummy]

Just wanted to add...another option with EW is to try to resettle back to sleep instead of getting up. Doing that is my favourite option if you can manage it as it gives a later start to the day & a later first nap and can help to get out the EW/early nap/early BT loop.

[N_Mom_S]

Mmmm how do you resettle a very happily awake baby who keeps pulling up in the crib, is it possible? Any tricks? For example today he woke up at 7:30am and we left him there until he started fussying at 8:15am. Other times he starts fussying much earlier and we have to start the day very early.

I'm afraid we got into an OT loop..  his A times are getting longer and his naps and night time sleep shorter. Early bedtime (20:30) worked great the first day so that's our goal, but we're going back to his previous A times with the difference that we have shorter naps and an OT baby I'll keep trying though, it may just be the first days. Any other thoughts to get out of the loop apart from EBT?

And I have another question about night weaning, when you stopped feeding your LO after the correct time for that day, did he fuss? I don't know if I'm doing it correctly, because when I stopped he still wanted more and cried a bit in my arms (not much though).

[Scottishmummy]

I try everything possible to resettle EW: sh-pat, feeds, white noise etc.  Is it possible that the fussing is tiredness and wanting to resettle rather than wanting to get up?

Hmm his naps still sound tricky..Could you post his EASY for the last couple of days?

Night weaning ... DS fussed a little when I took him off feed early but I used to then try to soothe him in the cot. I would keep the same length of feed for 2-3 nights before cutting another minute off.

[N_Mom_S]

It could be tiredness some of the days, but most of them he wakes up happy and energetic, so I don't think so...

I was hoping today would be different because he woke up at 9am, but I think it's getting worse. He cried at BT like the previous 2 days, but this time for 35 minutes... All 3 nights I've pick him up after the OT wakings because the first night he woke up 3 times and kept waking up until I picked him up, so today and last night I've picked him up at the first waking.

Last 3 days:

WU 8:00   
E8:35, 11:10   
A 3h 35m   
S 11:35-14:25   /2h 50m   
E 14:40   
A 3h 20m   
S 17:45-18:25   /0h 40m   
E 18:25, 20:15(bit), 20:50   
A 2h 50m   
BT 21:15   OT

NW 21:20, 21:30, 21:40, E1:15, E5:00


EWU 7:25   
E8:30, 11:20   
A 4h   
S 11:25-13:10   /1h 45m   
E 14:00   
A 3h 55m   
S 17:05-17:50   /0h 45m   
E 18:00, 20:15, 20:40   
A 3h 30m   
BT 21:20   (OT, tried since 20:50 but crying)

NW 21:25, 00:20, E1:20, DF5:45


WU 9:00   
E 9:10, 11:40   
A 2h 45m   
S 11:45-13:00   /1h 15m   
E 14:05   
A 3h 30m   
S 16:30-17:45   /1h 15m   (tried 3h15 A time but I think he was UT, cried 15min)
E 17:50, 19:50(bit), 20:15   
A 3h 20m   
BT 21:05   (tried since 20:30 but crying, OT?)

NW 21:40 so far

[lolsyb1982]

Sorry I haven't read all of the recent posts but could you reduce that last A a bit if he's getting those OT early wakings.

[N_Mom_S]

I tried 2h45, could he get OT because we put him in the crib UT and then he cries and cries? Or does that look more like real OT? Sometimes I really can't tell the difference. But I'm pretty sure his 2nd nap was UT.