Author Topic: The aim of the game...  (Read 2009 times)

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Offline Crispysage

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The aim of the game...
« on: August 04, 2016, 21:19:34 pm »
4 month old - ebf good at falling asleep but now 4 month sleep regression has hit we are paci or needing help for NW and running into feeding to sleep because of too long A times.

Question:

Is the aim for 3X day time naps totaling +- 4hours with total sleep +- 14 hours? (2* 1hr naps and 1 2hr nap sometimes 45 mins instead of 1 hr. + CN)

I am struggling with too much A time before BT with this flexi 3 to 4 E schedule. So I usually do a CN in the carrier to make it though the BT routine. Now he has started resisting that too. Don't want to have an OT baby and end up feeding to sleep at BT! (I track all E and S times on ical so I’ll post a sample day at the end.)

Question:
Aim for E = 4 hours at night or 4 hours during the day first?

Question:
Which feed drops first? DF or 3am feed?

Yesterday into today:
6:30 E and WU
8:30 -9:30 S in stroller (not usual - it was voting day)
10 E
11 - 12:30 S
12:30 - 1 S in car
2pm E
3 - 4 S
6:30 E
6:45 S
8:30 NW (this is new…) A till 9:15
11 DF
2:30 E
4:30 NW - A till 5:30
5:30 E and fall asleep
5:40 - 6:30 S and WU
8:30 OT crying and hungry E to S until - 9:15
10:30 crying
10:40 - 12:35 S (crying at 11:30 paci)
12:40 E

Thanks!
I never know where to post questions that encompass E and S so it seems here at the schedule board makes sense?



Offline Lindsay27

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Re: The aim of the game...
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2016, 14:16:59 pm »
Hi hun, first off I'm going to direct you to some links that are helping during this transition :)

Just a note that many BF babies don't make it a full 4hrs between feeds, so what most do is give them a little top up before nap.  On 4hr EASY you are essentially aiming for 2 x longer naps and 1 x CN, so if a 6:30 WU is normal for you then something like:

WU 6:30
Nap 8:30 - 10:30
Nap 12:30 - 2:30
CN 4:30-5
BT 7

Once A times increase a bit then the CN eventually pushes out.

Time to Transition - 3hr, 3.5hr or 4hr EASY
Typical Amounts of Day and Night Sleep



Offline Crispysage

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Re: The aim of the game...
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2016, 19:40:19 pm »
Thanks! So great to get help... I had actually read those links... very helpful info but not all the answers I am looking for... (Thanks for the assurance I'm doing the right thing with the top up before BT. )

He can often happily manage a 4hr schedule, and if left to demand feed has routinely done 4 hrs even when 3mths old. (When he doubled his birth weight and used to do longer stretches at night... 5 or even 6 hours.) I am grateful he is doing so well, but if I can do something clever now to expedite STTN i want to! It took me 8 months with DS1 and he is an EW so not that much sleep going on in our house!

Is CN 45 mins?

These days we can do the 4 hr EASY provided DS2 naps well because sometimes he will only do 2X 45 min and one 1.5 hr. Thats really my main problem I think... because if is A too long it throws everything out... He is too tired to eat enough or can't stay awake long enough to get to 4hrs. Should I post to naps and ask Scottishmommy!? I use white noise and did some training previously on joining cycles which he can now do. (often sleeps 2hr stretches.) But I think he wakes because of a noisy house - difficult to avoid with stone floors and a 2 yr old.

Also with my other questions
Question:
Aim for E = 4 hours at night or 4 hours during the day first?

Still keen to know if I should offer 3.5 hourly during the day till he does 4hrly by himself at night (or once he is easily able to do 4hr schedule during the day is the idea that he then starts doing longer at night because of it?)

and

Question:
Which feed drops first? DF or 3am feed?

I remember with DS1 that the nurse said 3am feed was the last to go, but now I am remembering that Tracy was supporting the DF specifically to facilitate dropping the 3am feed right? So the idea is to DF till 3am drops, then drop DF.

Until a week to so ago LO was waking for the 11pm but lately I have been doing a proper DF. Was wondering last night if I should leave it and see when he wakes?

I have also started wondering about habitual waking because it's pretty well timed (2:30am when I Paci and he wakes again at 3 when I feed. and 5:30am same story) Think I'll give it some more time and then perhaps try the wake to sleep?

Yay for the BW forum! Thanks so much :)



Offline Lindsay27

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Re: The aim of the game...
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2016, 14:12:06 pm »
(When he doubled his birth weight and used to do longer stretches at night... 5 or even 6 hours.) I am grateful he is doing so well, but if I can do something clever now to expedite STTN i want to! It took me 8 months with DS1 and he is an EW so not that much sleep going on in our house!
There is a pretty big sleep regression at 4 months which is usually coinciding with a developmental leap so it is pretty common around this time to kind of revert back to more frequent wakings. 

These days we can do the 4 hr EASY provided DS2 naps well because sometimes he will only do 2X 45 min and one 1.5 hr. Thats really my main problem I think... because if is A too long it throws everything out... He is too tired to eat enough or can't stay awake long enough to get to 4hrs.
45mins naps can be caused by 2 things - 1) he is UT or 2) he can't always connect sleep cycles.  If a nap is short, then reduce the next A time slightly so as to avoid OT.  It might mean your routine goes AESAEAS which is ok.

Question:
Aim for E = 4 hours at night or 4 hours during the day first?
My general thinking is that if LO can go 4hrs between feeds during the day then they should be able to do the same at night.  So I don't necessarily think that one needs to happen before the other, rather simultaneously.  That said, if LO doesn't get enough feeds during the day it can mean for more frequent NW.

Question:
Which feed drops first? DF or 3am feed?

I remember with DS1 that the nurse said 3am feed was the last to go, but now I am remembering that Tracy was supporting the DF specifically to facilitate dropping the 3am feed right? So the idea is to DF till 3am drops, then drop DF.
I never did a DF with either of my LOs to I'm not completely sure to be honest, but I think you are correct in that Tracy said to use the DF to facilitate dropping the 3am feed.  From fairly early on my DD was able to sleep from 7pm-3am so I never bothered with the DF as I found it just disturbed sleep, and I like to go to bed early myself. 

I have also started wondering about habitual waking because it's pretty well timed (2:30am when I Paci and he wakes again at 3 when I feed
Are you sure the 2:30am waking isn't hunger?  Given he wakes 30mins later and you feed, I'm thinking if you were to just feed at 2:30 instead then he would just go from 2:30 through to 5:30.  Wakings closer together like that usually indicate hunger.



Offline Crispysage

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Re: The aim of the game...
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2016, 07:38:13 am »
Lindsay! Thanks so much.

After reading your post last night I skipped the DF (I was too tired to stay up anyway...) but he woke at 11. Then again at 2:30 and 5:30. So no I'm not sure he isn't hungry - it makes sense what you say about waking again after 30 mins.

I'm just bummed that he's totally happy to do longer stretches during the day than the night! That's why I had him on a daytime 3.5 schedule for ages even after he could do 4 during the day if left to himself. I was thinking to get more food in during the day that way, but it might be that he's just not hungry enough to eat as much until 4 hours.

Of course I wonder if I agonize too much over this, but I'm just longing for a reliable routine so I can stop having to figure everything out all the time!

If he does eat at 5:30 then we are on next at 9:30 (where the day before might have been 10 or 10:30) Plus he might go back to sleep and only wake at 7:30. In which case at 9:30 it's time to Eat AND time to sleep. Or WORSE is that I sleep till 7:30 and have no idea how long he's been awake  ;D Then I just try and read him and put him down when he seems tired... but he is such an easy boy he's pretty hard to read and I only realize he is OT when I try to put him down.

Oh well, not really sure what I am asking, but grateful to have someone wise and willing to think it through with!

P.S. Thanks for the thoughts on the 45 min sleeps too - I'll see about trying putting him down sooner - OT/UT how on earth am I supposed to know  ::)



Offline Crispysage

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Re: The aim of the game...
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2016, 08:38:31 am »
What do you mean here

Moving from 3 to 4 month EASY - a couple of questions

about starting feed time at WU time?

He is now asleep but overdue for E as it's now 10:30am! Time to eat methinks!



Offline Lindsay27

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Re: The aim of the game...
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2016, 13:42:50 pm »
After reading your post last night I skipped the DF (I was too tired to stay up anyway...) but he woke at 11. Then again at 2:30 and 5:30. So no I'm not sure he isn't hungry - it makes sense what you say about waking again after 30 mins.
These seem like totally normal wakings, especially if he is taking full feeds then yes I would just consider them hunger.  My DD used to do her first stretch as the longest, then generally wake every 3hrs afterwards.

If he does eat at 5:30 then we are on next at 9:30 (where the day before might have been 10 or 10:30) Plus he might go back to sleep and only wake at 7:30. In which case at 9:30 it's time to Eat AND time to sleep.
Yes the transition can be tricky with E and S times, especially so if you are dealing with short naps too.  Just try to keep the EAS pattern but note that something like EASAES often happens and it's okay, it will correct itself once you are fully on 4hr EASY.

about starting feed time at WU time?
I just mean that if he woke at say 5:30am and you feed and he goes back to sleep and wakes at say 7am, I would feed at 7 and start the EAS from that point, so feeds would be 7-11-3-7 (with top ups before S if necessary).



Offline Crispysage

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Re: The aim of the game...
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2016, 19:01:02 pm »
Thanks a million :)