Author Topic: 4 Month Old - Various Questions!  (Read 1080 times)

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Offline stef22

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4 Month Old - Various Questions!
« on: August 11, 2016, 19:25:25 pm »
Hi,

Thank you so much for reading this and I appreciate any feedback you might have.  I have a wonderful 4.5 month old baby boy.  He is definitely spirited, he knows what he wants and isn't afraid to let us know what that is.  Sleep has been a bit of a challenge since the beginning, he went through phases where he would only sleep on us, and typically he would need to be walked around for 45 minutes or so to nap and sometimes longer at bedtime.  He would scream if we tried to sit down in a rocking chair.  He has slept in his crib from day 1 and is usually pretty good once we get him down.

A couple weeks ago I started transitioning to the 4 hour EASY (we are almost there) and he's followed EASY since birth.  Couple questions I'm hoping someone can help with:

1) After two weeks, should we be seeing more progress?  He's doing pretty good at naps, he typically will put himself to sleep or we PU/PD for less than 10 minutes.  Nighttime can take anywhere between 20 minutes and an hour of PU/PD.  I feel this is still quite long after we've been diligent for a couple weeks. 

2) We still are having trouble getting through the 45 minute sleep cycle.  I often sit in his room and shush/pat when he stirs.  Is this something that typically will self-correct with time?  I hear it can be a sign of overtired, but I'm unsure how to correct. 

3) The naps are 1.5 hours max (typically with PU/PD in the middle).  How do I get him to the 2 hour mark?  He's happy after 1.5 hrs and I'll PU/PD for the remainder but he just screams. 

4) He really fights the shush/pat.  He sticks his arm out and flails his body so I can't pat his back.  At that point, I'll pick up.  Any suggestions what to do with a baby who fights it?

5) Nighttime, if I do PU/PD for 40 minutes (or longer), should I take a break and feed him?  I'm concerned because I know he likes to tank up before bed, sometimes I think he is crying because he's wanting more calories.  I can't distinguish between the cries and I'm uncertain at what point to feed, or to keep on doing it.  I definitely don't want to build a habit and teach him that if he cries for an hour he gets food, but at the same token - what's the point if he will go down better after a feed.  I'm confused on this one.

6) The book says not to go by the clock.. but it also says to go by the clock.  LOL.  I have to fight to keep him happy the last 20 minutes or so before naps, but again - is that something that will naturally work itself out or would I get more success putting him down earlier? 

Thank you so much for any advice that anyone has!  I really appreciate it.  Typical day below:

E - 7:00am (wake him 2/3 of the time)
A - 7:20am
S - 9:00am (start routine 10 minutes prior), typically sleeps until 10:20-10:30 after shush/pat in middle of sleep

E - 11:00am
A - 11:20am
S - 12:45pm (start routine 10 minutes prior), typically sleeps until 1:40 or so (after shush/pat around 1:15)

E - 2:30pm (working on stretching this out to 3:00)
A - 2:50pm
S - 3:45pm (rare he sleeps more than 45, I'll shush pat for him for 45 minutes after he wakes to no avail)
               *this would be great as a cat nap but I can't seem to extend his first two naps to the two hour mark

E - 5:15pm
A - 5:30pm, 6:00 bath

E - 6:30pm (doesn't take much food)
S - Start around 6:35pm.  Sometimes asleep by 7, sometimes still doing PU/PD by 8:00.  If he falls asleep, usually up 45 minutes later, then 45 after that. 

Dream feed - I'll feed him around 9:00 if he wakes up then, or I'll dream feed at 10:00.  Then he's up between midnight and 1:00pm and again between 3:30-4:00.  Feeds, goes right back down without PU/PD.

Thank you so much in advance!  My husband is getting frustrated as he thought we would be seeing progress by now.  People are starting to question us and I believe in this book but I'm unsure if I'm doing something wrong.  PLEASE HELP!

Thank you,
Stefanie

     

Offline jessmum46

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Re: 4 Month Old - Various Questions!
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2016, 12:50:30 pm »
Hi Stefanie :)

I'll do my best to tackle each question - please let me know if I miss anything!

1) After two weeks, should we be seeing more progress?  He's doing pretty good at naps, he typically will put himself to sleep or we PU/PD for less than 10 minutes.  Nighttime can take anywhere between 20 minutes and an hour of PU/PD.  I feel this is still quite long after we've been diligent for a couple weeks. 
I think this is likely because his routine isn't quite right yet, and he is not yet getting proper restorative naps.  I suspect some routine tweaking (see below) will help with this :)

2) We still are having trouble getting through the 45 minute sleep cycle.  I often sit in his room and shush/pat when he stirs.  Is this something that typically will self-correct with time?  I hear it can be a sign of overtired, but I'm unsure how to correct. 
It can be OT/UT, not being an independent sleeper, or just developmental!  Very frustrating....The first 2 can be sorted fairly easily with routine tweaks, hopefully consistently doing PUPD for the start of naps will deal with independent sleep, and the last reason they just have to grow out of!  Often happens by around 6 months so hang in there :)

3) The naps are 1.5 hours max (typically with PU/PD in the middle).  How do I get him to the 2 hour mark?  He's happy after 1.5 hrs and I'll PU/PD for the remainder but he just screams. 
If he's doing 1.5h that's fine - some babies (typically those who are a bit lower sleep needs) only need a 1.5h nap and won't do the standard 4h EASY.  You just need to be a bit creative with the routine.  DD never did 2h naps, always 1.5h so we would have either had some slightly longer A times or a slightly longer 3rd nap to compensate.  I certainly wouldn't bother with PUPD at that point, if he's slept a good restorative 1.5h and is happy, start your next EAS cycle.

4) He really fights the shush/pat.  He sticks his arm out and flails his body so I can't pat his back.  At that point, I'll pick up.  Any suggestions what to do with a baby who fights it?
Again, avoiding OT or UT will help here.  But you can modify shh pat in any way you want - you don't have to do it 'by the book'.  Safe sleep recommendations are to place a baby to sleep on their back, so you can use a hand across the body to pat the opposite hip, or just stroke Los head, rest a hand on their tummy - whatever works really as long as it is something you can slowly wean.

5) Nighttime, if I do PU/PD for 40 minutes (or longer), should I take a break and feed him?  I'm concerned because I know he likes to tank up before bed, sometimes I think he is crying because he's wanting more calories.  I can't distinguish between the cries and I'm uncertain at what point to feed, or to keep on doing it.  I definitely don't want to build a habit and teach him that if he cries for an hour he gets food, but at the same token - what's the point if he will go down better after a feed.  I'm confused on this one.
I personally would concentrate on ensuring a good feed before bed, and then not stop the PUPD halfway to feed again.  If he's fed properly less than an hour ago, he isn't hungry and you will have more confidence in continuing :)  You can always feed at a night waking if you feel he needs it, but I agree stopping after 40 mins is confusing.  All that said, I do think routine tweaks will help and hopefully get rid of those long PUPD sessions anyway.

6) The book says not to go by the clock.. but it also says to go by the clock.  LOL.  I have to fight to keep him happy the last 20 minutes or so before naps, but again - is that something that will naturally work itself out or would I get more success putting him down earlier? 
So I think perhaps you may have got a little confused (not uncommon!!) - the section about sticking rigidly to the clock is ONLY for LOs who have never been on EASY, or any structured routine, using PUPD to establish a routine for the very first time.  It doesn't apply to LOs like yours who have been used to the EAS principle :) 

Looking at the routine, just a few thoughts:
- what about leaving him until he wakes naturally in the morning?  EASY is a routine, not a schedule so a bit of variation is fine :)  He may start the day better rested if you try that? (Or at least maybe allow a 'window' or 6.30-7.30am as a start point?)
- his second sleep is perhaps a bit late, I'd bring his second A time back to 2 hours for now.  If he gets a better second nap, then has 2h A time again, you may get a better third nap too.
- consider bringing bedtime earlier when naps haven't gone well - at the moment his A time before bed is a bit long after a short nap, it's often closer to the 1.5h mark after a catnap - so maybe 6pm may suit him better right now.

Just to give you an idea of a 4h EASY with 1.5h naps:
 
E 7
A 2h
S 9-10.30
(A)
E 11
A (2h total)
S 12.30-2
A
E 3
A (2h total)
S 4-5/5.30
A
E and BT 7-7.30ish

What do you think?

Offline stef22

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Re: 4 Month Old - Various Questions!
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2016, 17:14:31 pm »
Hi jessmum46,

Thank you so much!  I really really appreciate you taking the time to help us through this.

I cannot believe I misinterpreted the "going by the clock" part of the book.  Lol, I think that may be the cause of most of our problems because he was starting the days overtired.  Another big error I was making is that I thought he was supposed to go to sleep two hours after napping rather than two hours after waking up... so between those two things I think I've been creating more problems than solving.

All of your advice made such perfect sense.  I'm going to try it all out for a couple days and let you know how it goes.

Again, THANK YOU!
Stefanie

Offline jessmum46

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Re: 4 Month Old - Various Questions!
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2016, 18:49:57 pm »
Will look forward to an update :) and please post if there are any more questions x

Offline stef22

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Re: 4 Month Old - Various Questions!
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2016, 00:28:48 am »
Hi Jessmum46 - I'm really hoping I can get your help again.

Okay, I've started keeping him up only two hours between naps regardless of what time he wakes up.  Also working on feeding every four (seems fine, although today he seemed hungry before so we didn't quite make it).  Typically waking up for two or three night feeds which I'm not super concerned about right now.  He's been naturally waking between 7:40 and 8:20 and that's fine, I've been starting the routine at that point. 

One thing has improved.. when I get him down at night he doesn't seem to be waking 45 minutes later like he usually did.  HOWEVER, a couple of things are getting much worse.   :(

The last two days, his naps aren't longer than 25 minutes.  All three of them.  Also, he used to basically put himself down for naps and now he needs PU/PD for 20 minutes or so, and when I try it after the 25 minute nap, after 20 minutes of PU/PD he will fall asleep and then wake up 2 minutes later.  I also just did PU/PD for bedtime and after 40 minutes had to give up.  He won't calm down unless I leave his room. 

Honestly, I can't do PU/PD for almost four hours of my day.  I'm exhausted, and I really can't figure out what I'm doing wrong.  I can't get him to calm in my arms with shush/pat, and when I put him down he gets even more hysterical.  I know he's very overtired and obviously struggling to fall and stay asleep, but I'm starting to wonder if I'm somehow making this all worse.

Any advice?  Honestly, I think crying it out would be less traumatizing on all and it makes me really sad to say that.  But he's already screaming many hours and I can't calm him down.  Before I started this technique, he would nap much longer and wake up happier.  I don't know if this is age related or if the training has somehow agitated him.  Please help!

Thank you,
Stefanie




Offline creations

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Re: 4 Month Old - Various Questions!
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2016, 19:25:31 pm »
Hi there stefanie.
I'm mainly stopping by with a hug and some support, and just in case Jessmum is unable to get on to respond (work/life commitments) although I'm sure she'll be back to support you just as soon as she can.

I'm sorry to hear you're having a bit of a rough time. I remember those days - wow, really tiring, and heart breaking too if LO is crying a lot.  You've done brilliantly so far, following EASY since birth is amazing and you've given so much of yourself holding and rocking him to sleep and so on to build and maintain that wonderful bond of trust.
I promise you that this tricky time you are having now is not going to continue for ever.  And I urge you not to be tempted by any CC or CIO method.  You've made it this far supporting your LO with sleep it would be such a shame if you were to break the bond of trust now, I think you would regret it no matter how tempting it may seem when you are in the thick of it.
I remember mine crying and crying at times though and sometimes it was so hard and I was so exhausted I'd leave the room, I think I was at breaking point.  I'd be thinking "oh fine cry then" in my head even though I knew I didn't agree with leaving him. I made it as far as the other side of the door or the top of the stairs, took a deep breath, came to my senses and went back...literally seconds.  Later I learned I could distance myself a little from the emotion of his crying so whilst it was physically still hard work and tiring it was less mentally and emotionally tiring which did make a difference. You don't have to join him in his upset (sounds easy, harder in practise) to support him.
Even if you cannot stop your baby crying, even if you cannot make him go to sleep, be there with him. If ear plugs help to dull the sound then use them, if head phones with some calm music help to keep you calm too then use it...but stay with him, the staying is what is important to keep that bond.

I wonder if something different happened the last couple of days for his nap to shorten to 25 mins, I see you were giving a 2hr A time which is also what Katherine suggested, but he was sleeping 1.5hr and now appears OT or over stimulated - have you gone to a new mum and baby group, or had guests to the house? anything at all which is new?  Any chance he might be coming down with a cold or perhaps has some teeth movement starting which might be bothering him?
Sometimes we can track this stuff down, sometimes we can't and just have to accept a few days went crazy.
4-6 months is a time when we see lots and lots of babies with short naps, it is a known developmental time.  It really isn't too long until your LO gets a bit older and lots of this developmental stuff works out.  My LO started his phase of short naps at 3.5 months but it ended at 5.5 months.

hang in there honey - give yourself credit for all you have done so far, it's like a marathon with a new born, you will make it.


Offline jessmum46

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Re: 4 Month Old - Various Questions!
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2016, 09:16:09 am »
^^^super wise words :) I totally agree and hope you are doing ok today. Lots of (((hugs))) xx