PU/PD and bed sharing

[mummytodaniel]

Hi all,

Hoping for some advice! My almost 6 month old baby boy sleeps in his cot for naps and at the start of each night, but when he wakes for his first night feed (anywhere from 10:30pm - 1am), I bring him into bed with me for the rest of the night. 

I'll be going back to work in 2 months, hopefully on reduced hours but still 5 days per week. My mother in law will do most of the childcare. Problem is, baby always has to be rocked to sleep. Nobody else has ever put him to sleep, not even my partner, as he works long hours. I know I need to try and get him to self-settle before I return to work to avoid any unnecessary trauma when the time comes for me to leave him. However, I'm really reluctant to give up the bed-sharing, I genuinely love having my baby sleeping next to me, and am happy to breastfeed him back to sleep as often as he needs.

Is it possible to have the best of both worlds? Could I use PU/PD to 'train' him to settle himself for naps, but still bring him into bed with me when he wakes for a night feed? Has anybody else done this successfully? I don't want to make things harder for him in the long run, not sure if I'm just being selfish and should allow him to learn to sleep in his own cot full time. I guess the other consideration is that for my partner's sake I wouldn't really still want to be bed-sharing past 2 years old... so maybe it's better to just give it up now.

Any advice welcome! 

[Lana]

Hi there!  Welcome to the forum!  Congrats on your little man.

Personally I would start with the daytime naps and teach him to go to sleep on his own with pu/pd.  Once you know he can self settle you can work on the night wakings.

Is it possible to have the best of both worlds?

Honestly?  I would say no. 

I guess the other consideration is that for my partner's sake I wouldn't really still want to be bed-sharing past 2 years old... so maybe it's better to just give it up now.

It will definitely be easier now than at two.  Has your partner said anything about the bed sharing?  Also it is much easier to sleep train when you do not need to work the next day. 
 

[zissi]

you might be surprised how well he will get used to being put to sleep differently when you are not around. if I were you I wouldn't change anything especially since you like co-sleeping. and is has many advantages, the whole attachment parenting thing is great for raising healthy little people. you could work on self settling for naps, e.g. shush pat and continue to co-sleep. what do you think?

[mummytodaniel]

Thanks so much to both of you for your kind replies

Lana, that sounds like a good idea. I think I will start with naps and see how we get on. However as you say it's much easier to deal with sleep issues when you don't have to get up for work in the morning, so maybe that's a reason to try and start working on it soon. My partner sleeps in the spare room as he works long hours and is a ridiculously light sleeper, and although he's perfectly happy in his king size bed with TV(!), I don't really want it to become a really long term thing. We do have our 'couple time' in the evenings when baby is asleep so it's not a problem just yet.

Zissi, I did wonder if he would be different for somebody else... I can't bear the thought of him being really upset if I'm not there to put him to sleep but I could be totally wrong. Perhaps a 'trial' is in order. I love the whole attachment parenting concept and it feels like the most natural and best way for me to raise my little boy. But some people don't really get it and think it's going to make him clingy and spoiled, he'll always want to be carried etc... which I totally disagree with but it does occasionally plant a seed of doubt in my mind! I would love to carry on co-sleeping but is it fair to do this with the intention of moving him out by, say, 18 months or 2 years? I know some people just carry on until the child is ready to go into their room in their own time, even if this is at 5 or 6 years old, but I don't really feel comfortable with that, and it's not possible anyway as my partner is sleeping separately whilst baby is in my bed so I don't want that to go on for years.

Thanks again for your advice, it's really helpful.

[Lana]

I would love to carry on co-sleeping but is it fair to do this with the intention of moving him out by, say, 18 months or 2 years?

Personally I would say no.  Sleep training is hard work at any age but it will be even harder the older he gets.  With my first we didn't find BW until he was 5.5 months old so that is when we started and he was self soothing pretty quickly.  With my second we did it from day one.  We did have bumps along the way when they were sick or teething but it was worth putting in the work.  I know a lot of people IRL who started off co-sleeping and loved it but by the time little one was 2ish it wasn't so great anymore kwim and it is a long hard road to change at that point. 

[Shiv52]

Co sleeping is obviously not what BW recommends but Tracey also said things are only a problem when they are a problem. I think if you are aware of the potential issues you can continue without there being any real issues in the longer term.   I've just had my DD3 and I was surprised the MWs said there are longer rates of BFing if a mum takes their baby into bed to feed.

My advice would be to begin sleep training for days. Gently. I wouldn't use PU/PD if your LO hasn't done sleep training before and is used to being rocked to sleep. I would likely rock to sleep and start putting down more and more awake and ssh/pat in the cot until fully asleep. You may find he will start resisting the rocking as so he gets a bit bigger so it's a good idea to work on self settling.  That is obviously presuming he is on a good routine with good A times for his age. Do you want to post your routine and we can take a look?

With night times I'd put down as you are and let him sleep to the DF. I always took mine into bed when they woke and they tended to just stay there. It wasn't a conscious decision to co sleep but with BFing it is much easier!  I found the length of time they were in my bed just decreased naturally as they stopped waking to feed at night. I was conscious from they were 7/8 months of resettling rather than feeding if it had been 3/4 hours since they'd fed. What is your LO doing at night?  Is he going good stretches between feeds or is he snacking all night?   I have no memories at all of the transition to them just being in their own beds all night so there was no trauma here at all.   The fact he's in his cot for naps and for start of night I imagine you could have a similar experience to me. You could try feeding and resettling in his cot for that first night feed and see does he settle back there once you've worked a bit on day sleep.

I wouldn't make any radical changes. Let take a look at your days first xx

[michaeljacknnugg]

I've done similar, baby has just moved into his own bed in his own room for the majority of the night and the transition has gone really well.

Like Shiv says, gently does it. We are part of the way through gradual withdrawal - I'm taking it slowly! - and now he settled by sitting on my lap with me singing to him. Tbh I'm not ready to give up the cuddles yet.

At night I fed him when he woke and then put him back to bed. Very quickly his sleep times extended and now if he wakes, it's in the early morning and we just stay in bed and snuggle.

I loved co sleeping. I feel so much more rested with this baby than with my first, and it was easy to tell when it was time for him to make the move to his room. Maybe it's worth waiting to see if you are in a similar situation?

[mummytodaniel]

Thanks so much to you all for taking the time to reply to me, I really appreciate it

Shiv52, do you think PU/PD will be too upsetting for him? Is it better when used at a younger age? I have read the No Cry Sleep Solution which I think is basically gradual withdrawal(?), but I couldn't seem to get past Phase 1.  I rock him pretty much to sleep, then put him down on his side and continue to rock him in his cot. He usually does wake up slightly so he is aware I've put him down, then settles off to sleep again. But whenever I've tried to put him down any sooner (i.e. before he's pretty much asleep) he just cries instantly, and no amount of shushing or patting will settle him, I have to pick him up again. That's why I was thinking of PU/PD, because I go back to work in 2 months and I honestly don't think he will be self settling in 2 months with the gradual withdrawal method. If I wasn't going back to work I'd be happy for it to take as long as it takes. I can't bear to let him cry so could never do CC/CIO, so I guess I though PU/PD was a gentler method but with faster results.

I tried to do an EASY routine when he was younger, but I found it would take ages to get him to sleep and there would be a lot of crying before he dropped off. Then I started feeding him before naps and it became a lot easier and less stressful for both of us so that's what I've done since. He doesn't feed to sleep for naps, but he is just nice and happy and calm after a feed. My thoughts also were that he would sleep for longer with a full tummy. His naps are usually only 45 minutes, but occasionally he'll have 2 hours.

Routine is something like:
7.30am - awake
9 - 9.30am - nap
10am ish - awake
12pm - nap
1pm - awake
3.30pm - nap
4.30pm - awake
6.30 - 6.45pm - start bedtime routine (bath, lullaby, 1 book)
7.15pm - asleep

This is very approximate and varies depending on how long he naps. Night times vary a lot too. Some nights he will wake at, say 1am, then 4am, then up for the day. But other nights he will be awake every 90 mins or so, and because he's in bed with me I just switch him to the other side of me, stick in a boob and drift back off to sleep. We very rarely have any lengthy awake times in the middle of the night. But he does seem to use me as an all night snack bar some nights. The last few nights he's been waking up at 10:30pm for his first night feed whereas prior to this he would sleep from 7.30 until midnight or 1am. 

MJ&N, great to hear the transition has gone well for your LO. I'm not ready to give up the cuddles yet either! I would love to keep co sleeping, and if I wasnt going back to work I don't think I would be worried about his sleep at all. Did your baby go back to bed easily after you fed him at night?

[michaeljacknnugg]

Sometimes easily, sometimes he needed a bit of help to get back off to sleep. I think that's probably a bit of laziness on my part though, as I let DH bring him into our room to feed and the change of scene woke him up a bit.

Very quickly we went down from 2 night feeds to 1, and now we are on 1 or none at all.

[mummytodaniel]

Hi MJ&N, another question if you don't mind. How long has it taken you to see results using the gradual withdrawal method? I just don't know if it's possible to get him self-settling using this method before I have to go back to work.

However now I'm wondering if PU/PD will be really upsetting for him, and I'll struggle to stick to it. A few weeks ago I was rocking him to sleep for his nap but he was just taking ages to settle. He was whining (not full-on crying) and I put him down on the bed for maybe 20 seconds as my back was killing. He was absolutely distraught, proper upset crying, not just mad or frustrated, and was actually sort of gasping for breath as he was crying so hard. It was awful. And that's only after being put down for a few seconds.

It's usually fairly easy to get him to sleep at bedtime, but tonight took longer as he had one of his rare 2 hour naps this afternoon so the schedule was off. I was rocking him but he was arching his back and seemed frustrated. So I put him in his cot and he became wide awake but perfectly happy chattering away to himself. I decided to try just shushing and rubbing his back which was fine for a while but then he started getting fussy/whiny. Usually I would pick him up at this point but I decided to just keep on shushing and rubbing his back and see what happened. After a minute or so he started getting upset so I picked him up, but it took a good 15 minutes to calm him back down. He kept getting upset, then calming down, then getting upset for no apparent reason. If that's how he reacted after letting him fuss for just a minute or so, I dread to think what state he will work himself into if I try to do PU/PD.

Sorry for the long post, I just feel stuck, not sure what to do for the best.

Thanks for anyone who is reading and can offer advice.

[Shiv52]

Hello again!

Sorry busy weekend!

Honestly with gradual withdrawal it won't take 2 months. But you need to make sure you move through the stages quickly. It is not a no cry approach.  There will be fussing and crying but you are right there reassuring him. You are changing the way he's sleeping so he will be frustrated and upset but teaching self settling is a fab skill.  PU/PD is a hard approach to use when you are breaking a rocking prop. With mine I found if I PU they calmed as so they were clearing thinking 'yes rocking to sleep' and then when I put them back down they were so upset. The PU was too close to the prop I was breaking if that makes sense.

But for gradual weaning you do need to move through the steps. So rock to very drowsy but start to slow the rocking and ssh pat then into cot nearly asleep. Do that for three days. If he cries continue to settle in the cot and only lift if really necessary but make sure once he's resettled he goes in very drowsy but awake. If he falls asleep it means the crying will be for nothing and could make it harder to learn the skill YK?  Then after three days reduce the amount of rocking to more holding and ssh/pat then in to cot a bit more awake. Move in three days all the time reducing the rocking and increasing how awake he is. Have a sleepy phrase you use throughout.

I also think you will need to rejig your routine to make sleep training easier on him. 45 minutes nap are usually always under tired (UT) and his A time is low for a 6 month old. I would start increasing that first A time and if you get a good nap increase the next.

Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!

A time for this age is 2h30-3 hours and by 6.5/7 months most babies are on at least three hours and 2 solid naps. I think you will get less resistance to sleep training if he's getting more A time as he'll be tired enough to sleep. 

I wouldn't be worrying about nights yet. Maybe just keep a track of feeds as you do want to avoid him getting into the habit of just feeding to sleep.

Does he use a dummy/paci?

Thoughts?

[michaeljacknnugg]

Yes, mine is a disaster if he gets upset, too. Hence I am not going anywhere near PUPD.

It's all a bit hazy if I'm honest, because I got him self settling in the crib and then everything changed when he outgrew it and we had to start again. A few weeks? A fair bit of that was trial and error, though, to see what worked.

Do you have any other sleep cues in place? If not, I'd start there. We have white noise, a consistent wind down and now the singing. I figured out he needs freedom to move around but still wants to be with me, so he's on my lap but just lightly held. I haven't taken the last step yet because I am treasuring the snuggles, but  I'm confident he can go to sleep with others (daddy, for example) and I'm happy with that.

[mummytodaniel]

Thanks again for your great replies, so grateful!

Shiv52, yes I totally understand what you mean about PU being too close to rocking to sleep. My concern is that I actually think he would be more upset if I didn't pick him up, and just tried to shush/pat in the cot. He doesn't seem to care that I'm touching him or shushing him, he just wants to be picked up! I guess I need to give it a try and just play it by ear, and see what is least upsetting for him.

Interesting what you say about his awake times, I have been aware that his awake times haven't really increased in the last couple of months. I tend to take him for his nap when he starts to get fussy and show tired signs like rubbing eyes, yawning etc. But I could try and keep him going for a bit longer by feeding him, change of environment etc. As you say he may be more willing to sleep if he's more tired. Will definitely give that a try, thank you.

He doesn't have a dummy, took one a couple of times when he was tiny but then went off it. Now he won't take one at all.

So I will definitely just focus on naps for now and see how we get on. You've given me some great advice and things to try so thank you very much I think I'm just feeling a bit negative because on the odd occasion I've tried to put him down drowsy but not asleep he has cried immediately and it's ended up taking 15 times or more to put him down. But admittedly I haven't really been 100% consistent and done it at every nap time so if I commit to it properly I hope I will see some results.

MJ&N, did you used to rock your baby to sleep, and how did you get him to settle in the crib? Just gradually putting him down more and more awake? Great to hear it only took a few weeks - better than the long months that I imagined it would take! We have a good bedtime routine now, but naptimes just consist of: switch fan on (white noise), undress, into sleeping bag, lie down on bed to breastfeed, then rock him, then into cot to sleep. I wonder if I should introduce a lullaby like at bedtime, maybe this would help...? I totally get what you mean about the snuggles, they'll be grown in no time and we'll be wondering where our tiny babies have gone!!

[Shiv52]

Yeah I think it will take it to be consistent to help him get used to a new way. At this age they can show tired signs out of habit and also show tired signs when they are bored.  Often a change of scenery can help keep them alert and awake longer.

I see what you mean about the PU/PD. I think you'll find your way as you go. With my Dd1 GW didn't work well as she just got so upset being put down from rocking. With her I needed to just out her down. First day was hard going. She cried for a good 20 mins with me sshing and reassuring. But after that she was great and was happy to lie straight down. My DD2 was better and I was to GW much easier.

[Lana]

agree with shiv.  consistency is the most important part of sleep training.  with E I couldn't pu as he would just be worse when I put him back down so I had to soothe while leaning into the crib.  as shiv said there will be crying but you will be there to help him through.