Difficulties with self soothing at bedtime

[MommySteezy]

Hello mommies! Hoping to get a little guidance on some sleep issues I'm having with my little guy (11.5 months old). I'll try my best to make this as short as possible...but we all know how that goes, lol.
Our main issue right now is an inability to self soothe to sleep at bed time. When I lay him down for a nap I sing him a lullaby, lay him down awake and he rolls over and soothes himself right to sleep. Every once in a while he'll fuss for a bit, but usually no longer than a couple minutes and then he's right to sleep and will sleep for a good amount of time (1.5-2 or even 2.5 hours). At bedtime, however, if I try the same thing he FREAKS out when I lay him down - cries very hard and sits or stands up until I come back to him. The last several nights (ok....2 weeks) I've had to rock him to sleep (I know, I know...tsk tsk) and he has to be HARD asleep or if I lay him down he will just pop right back up and get upset again. Last night it took me over an hour to get him in bed asleep. I have tried PUPD and he gets VERY upset and it makes him weary and anxious for put downs and started effecting naps so I cut that. I also tried a modified PUPD (5 min hands off/fussing then calming and starting again until self soothed to sleep) that I did with my daughter which cured her AWFUL sleep habits. He just gets WAY too worked up and stimulated.
TBH He has never been fully sleep trained and we have been dealing with NW for a while now which I was hoping were on their way out and then this happened... His NW before were very easy - he usually only had 1 a night around 3:00 and I'd feed him and put him right back in bed and he'd sleep til morning. This made me think he was just hungry and it wasnt a behavioral thing. Now, his NW are back to 2x a night sometimes and (sometimes will have an EW too). AND he is much harder to lay back down in bed after I feed him. If he's not VERY asleep he'll pop back up crying just like he does with put down. I'd obvs like to cut the NW too but I'm thinking the self soothing to bed needs to come first and then we'll tackle that.

Our schedule isnt consistent but looks something like this to give you an idea: he's on a 3.5 wake time sched
7-7:30 Awake
8:30 bfast (solids)
10:00 nurse (he'll eat a little but lately doesn't seem too interested)
Play
10:30-11: Nap
12:30-1:00 Awake
Lunch
Play
4:00-4:30 - Nap (if he does give me issue with going down for a nap its usually this one but he will usually just FIO for a bit and then self soothe to sleep. Its rare that he needs my assistance)
5:30 awake - I cap this one and won't let him wake up any later than 5:30 bc I don't want to be up past 9:00 with him.
8:30-9:00 BT (some nights he honestly doesn't seem crazy tired...)

I hope someone has some insight/advice because I am LOST! I have no idea why he would be able to self soothe so easily for nap time but then act like it was a totally foreign concept at bedtime. The only thing I can think is that night time is a little more chaotic with dinner and sister being home from school. Or maybe he is afraid of the dark?? I dont think he should be...thats kind of me just stretching for something. I don't think he's ready for the push to 1 nap bc his naps during the day are usually pretty good.

Random side note - about a month ago we went on vacation and his sched was all off whack with him napping in the carrier or stroller but he STTN  almost every night on vacation in his pack and play. I dont know if it was the super soft mattress in the pack and play or just being COMPLETELY worn out but it was magical...lol. Just a little extra piece to the puzzle that  might help solve this mystery 

TIA for any ideas/suggestions/advice you can throw my way. This mommy is sleepy! xo

[Skadiver13]

Hello, just wanted to pop on and see if perhaps that second A time is too long? Why are you capping his last nap? Could he be OT at bedtime and that's why he gets wound up? As he ever self settled at bedtime?

[MommySteezy]

I don't think the 2nd A time is too long. It's at 3.5 hours just like the AM nap and he generally settles pretty easily for that nap. I cap it if it runs later than 5:30 mostly bc I don't want his bed time to extend too late into the night (it's at 9:00 if he wakes at 5:30 which is already too late for my liking).  I suppose he could be OT - but I am pretty watchful of his signs and fussiness and I don't think he is getting OT. Of course, I could be wrong. Sometimes I wonder if we get in an UT/OT loop with bed time bc I am going by the clock and he doesn't always seem super tired when the 3.5 hr mark comes.
As far as settling at BT he has before. We were doing a bit of AP for a while when he would nurse to sleep and I laid him down but I tried stopping that bc I thought it was causing the NW. He would fuss for a bit but eventually self soothe to sleep - still had NW - but would self soothe after a little fussing.

[Skadiver13]

Sorry I mis-read your schedule no the second A time isn't too long. He may actually need less day sleep then? Maybe he was getting less of it during the day on vacation and then tacked it on at night? You could always try capping that afternoon nap a little more so he doesn't need a full A time before bed and maybe he isn't so wide awake?

Also have a look at your wind down for bed is there anything in there making is OS? Bath time for some makes them OS even if it doesn't seem like it, Is it too long or maybe too short ? Is it different from his nap wind down routine? Just throwing things out there.

[Palmira78]

I read your post looking for ideas regarding self soothing since my LO is quite nervous and I wanted to learn :-)... You can picture his arms and legs flying everywhere when he wakes up in the night.
Just to throw some ideas (that I am starting to apply)... You could breast feed him before your bed time routine, and then spend 20 minutes with the wind down process, which can include sitting with your baby on your lap (next to the cot) and watch a lamp with changing colors, singing, stroking him... without being in a hurry to put him into bed (I am always rushing since I have an older son).
What do you thing? have you thought about new forms of making him relax (different from breast feeding?). My feeling is that my own son craves contact, so just comforting him in the cot does not always work.

[MommySteezy]

Ahh - I got on to post an update to my post since I hadn't heard anything from my original posts and just saw I had some replies. My notification settings must not have been on for this post.  Anyway...We're still having issues with BT soothing and NW and I'm just not sure what to do here. The strangest thing to me is that during the day for his nap times, there isnt much of a soothing routine. I pick him up (some times in the middle of playing) we say night-night to the doggies and various things as we go up the stairs, I turn his light off and sing him a short lullaby and lay him in his crib and say night-night and he lays down and goes to sleep. Sometimes he'll fuss for a few mins but usually he just rolls over on his belly, wiggles a little and then falls right asleep. His time asleep varies but lately its around 1h15mins. He does the same for afternoon nap but usually I have to cap it bc I don't want him asleep past 5:00/5:30 bc that means way too late of a night for us. Bedtime is a totally different story though. For whatever reason he does not even attempt to self soothe. He cries the second I lay him down and he pops back up either sitting or standing and won't go back down unless I nurse him to sleep and lay him in his crib asleep. Almost always having 1-2 NW where I, again, have to nurse until he falls asleep and then put him back down again. I am so confused. Should I just not do a routine at BT and just put his pjs on and scoop him up and do same routine as naps? I am reluctant to do any kind  of training since I know he can self soothe at other times. I'm also wondering if it is a timing thing? Is he getting too much day time sleep and that's why he cant just settle at night?

[Palmira78]

Wow! It seems tricky!
Perhaps you could place an update of his EASY routine so we can try to figure out what is going on.
By the way, have you tried to put him to bed 30 minutes later to see if his reaction is the same?

[Skadiver13]

Sometimes he'll fuss for a few mins but usually he just rolls over on his belly, wiggles a little and then falls right asleep. His time asleep varies but lately its around 1h15mins. H

This tells me two things.. 1. He can go to sleep independently (even when he is UT) 2. It hink he needs a A push on tat first nap. 1hr15min is usually indicative of being UT. Have you tried pushing that First A time out? I think with the short first nap and the shorter non-restorative second nap you are in an UT/OT loop. By bedtime he is OT which is why he cant' seem to settle on his own at all. Can you give us the past few days EASY?

[MommySteezy]

Wow! It seems tricky!

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks so...
We had a crazy Saturday between sister's soccer game and having some relatives in from out of town to visit. He ended up getting 3 pretty short naps. I don't know the exact times but the day looked kind of like this
7ish - awake (maybe a little earlier I honestly cant remember)
had to be at the soccer field for a 9:00 game that lasted a little more than an hour. I could tell by the end that he was getting sleepy bc he was getting upset at the cheering and he usually isn't bothered at all by loud noises. Its only a short ride home so I tried to keep him awake even though he was nodding off bc I thought he'd do better if he went to sleep on his own in his bed. We rushed upstairs and he had a hard time going down and only stayed down for maybe 45 mins. I think we got home around 11...
at 12 we headed out to go meet up with fam and didnt head back home until about 3:30 - he fell asleep for about 30 mins on the way home. I also took him with me to pick up some dinner for the kids as my MIL was watching the kiddos so hub and I could celebrate our anniversary. He fell asleep on the way home in the car and so he wasn't a nightmare for her I let him sleep for about 30 mins. I think she ended up putting him down (prob rocked to sleep b/c whatever works on date night, lol)around 9:30/10:00 and he slept until 7:30 the next am with NO NW
So went into all that great detail bc I'm wondering if this kid just doesnt need much AM sleep in order to get good PM sleep?
Monday I stretched his A time to about 3h45m almost 4h and he slept for 1.5 hours but when it was time for his PM nap he straight up refused it. We had to get to soccer practice so I took the carrier and hoped he'd get a little CN but no such luck. He stayed in it for a bit but also wanted to get out and run around. I thought for sure he'd fall asleep on the way home, but he didn't. I put him down for the night at about 8:00 (just when timing worked out...) and he didnt wake until almost 5am. I nursed him and put him back down and he slept until about 7:15.
However, I tried to stretch the A wake time to 4h today and he slept for 30min. Then when it was time for his PM nap he acted like he wasn't tired at all. I had to go AP him to get him to sleep for a bit.
I am so confused! Do I just push the A wake time and try to keep stretching it until he gets to a good place for just 1 nap? Get 1 good nap and AP the CN until he is ready to just do 1 nap? My biggest goal is to get rid of these NW first. Every time I think I have it figured out he throws me for a loop. (aka parenthood )

[Skadiver13]

Sorry to be a pain as You d6is go into great detail vit xould you post a normal days routine in EAS format?
E:
A: Eyes open to eyes shut
S:

[MommySteezy]

There really is no normal day right now, unfortunately. We are kind of side ways with all of that stuff. That being said. Here is a pretty close glimpse...

7:00 Awake for the day
E : 7:30ish (usually about 30 mins after awake
A: Try to do some type of outside activity during this A time. He seems to be one that needs his engine drained to get a good nap.
I've been nursing him a bit before nap time - but trying to do it at least 20 min before so he doesn't fall asleep on the breast. I do think I'd like to start weaning that, though. Maybe giving him a little snack and sipper instead?
S: 11:00? I've been trying to stretch him to 4h, so if he is up at 7 I'd scoop him up around 10:50 or so and we'd say night night to everything as we head up the stairs. Then lights off, lullaby and lay down. Normally he is able to soothe himself and fall asleep (as mentioned in prev posts)
----------
this is where it gets foggy and thrown off. Most times he'll give me about 1h15m or 1h30m. From there we'll do 3.5-4 h of A time and then put him down for a CN. He's had a hard time settling and needs to be AP to go down in some cases or if I can't make it work with the schedule, I'll just skip it and hope he can make it till BT. Which is around 8:00/8:30.

Today it has looked like this so far
7:50: Awake
8:00 Bfast
Activity time: today we had started Gymboree (a play and music class) - got home around 10:30 and walked a little bit outside
I gave him some snack when we got home.
11:50: started NT routine. Got upset when I said night night (this is a new thing.... ) and I distracted him a little, but when I did our routine and laid him down he wasn't having it. I gave him a while to fuss and then ended up nursing him to sleep. He was in his bed asleep by prob 12:10 (maybe earlier - didnt look at the clock too intently...sorry!
Its about 1:35 now and he is still snoozing. He did fuss out a little bit ago but put himself back down.

I can try to be more diligent about paying attn to the clock and keeping record in the next few days if that would help. LMK if you see anything here you can work with, though. Thanks!

[Skadiver13]

My thoughts but in no way gospel. If he's only giving you a 1hr15 nap sometimes a 1.30hr nap I'm thinking maybe he could stand a slight push of his A time? Do you think it might work to go to a set nap? I did this at a year with my son because I wsa just so tired of pushing A times, and figuring it out. If he has a a pretty set bedtime/wake up you could possibly go with a set nap and that might make your life easier?

[MommySteezy]

What time would I do for a set nap? That's the tricky part for me right now. When I did 4h this weekend he slept 2h and change both times which tells me he def needed  an increase in A time. But then I'm in that weird spot with the 2nd nap and not being tired enough. Should I just try to do the 1 set nap and push him to make it to BT? Still desperately want to get rid of the NW too. I was hopeful that once we got on a better sched they'd stop. Also - I really feel ready to start weaning but I'm not prepared to do that until the NW stop, too. We had a couple nights of only 1 NW and some were actually not until 5am which was glorious. Anyway, I digress. He usually wakes around 7/7:30. Do you think a set nap time of 11:30 or 12 would work? I honestly  hate that timing bc it makes it hard to be out and about on the weekends, but I guess I could always consider doing a CN in the am and a longer nap a bit after lunch if we have plans? What do you think?

[Skadiver13]

What time would I do for a set nap?

Well that's based on your routine/easy. What time he usually wakes up and then average A times he pulls for a good nap and set the time at that time. Then if he early wakes you push the Nap no early than 30min/60min to the left. If he sleeps late you push it to the right.

But then I'm in that weird spot with the 2nd nap and not being tired enough.

Can he do an apop'd cn in the car or stroller?

Still desperately want to get rid of the NW too. I was hopeful that once we got on a better sched they'd stop.

Does he go to sleep by himself no props?

As for the set nap. Yes it's an inconvenience but it's not forever. My cousing use dot hate that I wouldn't go out for my son's naps until she had a baby. Then she held on to that nap for dear life and would protect it lol. She finally understood that for her daughter good day sleep meant good night sleep. That's how my son was. If he didn't sleep at home in his crib for his one nap, our nights weren't great. If he took that one good nap it was golden. My daughter can sleep anywhere at anytime. They, like ever baby are so different in their sleep needs. I would suggest trying to just bite the bullet and get a good napping routine for a few weeks see if it affects your nights and then a one off day on the weekend isn't going to kill him.

[MommySteezy]

How long is a "good nap" technically? 2+ hours? Today and yesterday he had about 4.5 hrs A time and gave me 1h 30 mins.

Most nights he has needed help to sleep - either nursing or rocking once I get the timing worked out better I think he will do fine with the self soothing to bed bc he does just fine with it for naps.. He actually had one of the best nights he's had in a while last night from 9-5:45 without waking. I nursed and laid him back down and he slept  again until 7:45.