4.45 wake up like clockwork!

[SusieQue]

Hi there, my LO is now 9 months and for the past week or so he has been waking like clockwork between 4.30 and 5am, regardless of the time he goes to bed! I'm sure we need a routine tweak but I'm just not sure where. I like to aim for a 7pm BT at the latest, and a 6am WU would be the ideal for us. He really doesn't eat a lot of solids (if any) so is still having 4 bottles per day. I thought maybe it was hunger waking him but I'm not so sure anymore. Here is our average routine:

4.45-5am wake
6am bottle
7.30 bowl or porridge (only meal he eats!)
S 9am - he only sleeps for maximum of 40 minutes, sometimes wakes after 30 mins and I know he is still tired but he won't resettle
E 10 bottle
11.30 try him with solids
E 1.45 bottle
S 2-3.30 (I wake him)
E 4.30 dinner (if he has any)
Bottle at 6.30, asleep within 10 minutes

Yesterday I let him sleep until 4pm and we went out, he then had a bedtime of 8pm - still awake at 4.45 this morning! I know he's still tired when he wakes as he's super miserable all morning until his nap, and we've tried giving him a bottle and putting back to bed - no, not having it!

Is there anything glaringly obvious I should be changing? He's my second DS and so much harder than my first so I feel like I know nothing! Any help would be appreciated

[Skadiver13]

Hi hun, yes he's definitely OT which can cause early morning wake ups. What do you do when he wakes at 445? Do you keep him in the dark or do you get him up and start your day?

 There are a few options if he refuses to go back to sleep.
1. Could you APOP him back to sleep for a few days to get him caught up?
2. You could move his Morning nap much earlier just for a few days or so to let him catch up. and then slowly move that nap back out to a more normal time.
 30/40min naps are usually from OT. If he does take a short nap you need to move his next nap earlier and shorten his A second A time. You have him on a 5hr A time after only a 30min nap and then you're capping his nap which is bound to make him OT.

What do you think? My DS did this too. Consistent 430 wakeups at that age. Was definitely developmental but I think yours is OT now too so you've got to let him catch up  before working through the early morning wakeups. I ended up rocking my DS until 6am just to get him caught up so I could work on our routine. It didn't' last long just a few days.

[SusieQue]

Thanks for the response! We try and rock him back to sleep but he just cried and screams and because I don't want to disturb DS1 it's mostly easier just to get him up. Slightly better WU this morning of close to 5.30, I put him to bed just before 9 this morning so will see how he gets on. You're right I think, he is OT. I've been a bit paranoid about not letting him sleep too much in the day as I don't want BT to be too late, so I'll try him for an earlier second nap today and see how we go!

[Skadiver13]

I would not worry about too much sleep in the day at this point. I think he needs to play catch up. I would move that first nap even earlier just for a day or two to catch up. Once you get a better wake up time for a day or so you can move it back out.  Even if you do end up getting him up so he doesn't scream. Keep the lights super low in the room don't change him and get ready for the day, just keep it low key some low music or rocking while singing and reading to him. Also I don't remember if you said but could he be hungry?

[SusieQue]

I don't think it is hunger as we give him a bottle about half an hour after he wakes and he never really seems that interested. He had a better nap this morning (just over an hour) and has just fallen asleep upstairs as we've been out and he wouldn't nap, so I'll probably just let him sleep and put him down a touch later. Roll on 2 years when these naps finally end!!

[Skadiver13]

HA my four year just finally dropped his nap. Good luck with it. Really the goal is to combat OT when they are this young, with whatever you can then work on your EASY after he catches up. Let us know how it goes.. Also watch for OS. I usually turn off all TV, and light up toys etc about 20min before a nap. Try and get one good nap at home if you can I know you need to be out and doing stuff with family.

[SusieQue]

So our daytime naps have got better but now he is waking at 3.30! We have been giving him a bottle then putting him back to bed, but I'm wondering if maybe I should be capping his day sleep? This has been our routine for the last couple of days:

WU 5.30
S 9.15-10.45 (I usually wake him)
A
S 2-4pm (sometimes it's 1.5 hours only)
A
BT 7pm

He's been waking up at 3.30am and crying the last few nights, it could be teething but he really tried to get back to sleep and it's like he just can't. Should I be moving towards the 2-1 transition do you think?

[Lindsay27]

Just popping on as our LOs are close in age, I do think too much day sleep might be part of your problem with both the EW and the NW.  I cap our day sleep to 3hrs so it usually means either 2 x 1.5hr naps or 1 longer nap (1.45-2hrs) and 1 shorter (45mins-1hr).  How you want to arrange that is up to you, by looking at your routine you could easily cap the PM nap at 3:30pm and have a 7pm BT.

[Skadiver13]

Great job on the naps. But yes I would like LIndsay said cap the afternoon nap a little. I just had a quick thought though. Is he BF or Formula fed? Does he eat in the middle of the night at all? Could it be a growth spurt where he's hungry at all? Just a thought.

[SusieQue]

Thanks for the replies! He is formula fed and still has four bottles a day as he has only just started to get interested in eating any solids. To be honest we give him a bottle because it settles him more quickly, as trying to cuddle him to sleep can sometimes take up to an hour. Today wasn't a great napping day as we had to go out, he woke at 5.30 this morning then went down for a nap at 9. I had to wake him at 10.30 as we had to go out, then he fell asleep in the car on the way home at 1. He woke up just after 1.30 but then refused to nap again throughout the afternoon so I just had to do a super EBT and he was asleep by 5.30. I figure he's waking early anyway, what do we have to lose?!

[Skadiver13]

You said you fed him at his waking at 330? Did he take a full feed? If so did he go back to sleep faster? Also, if might help (I Know it's hard) if you can stay home for just a day or so to fix his routine and get him caught up? As for today if he woke at 530 I may have tried to put him down a bit earlier so you wouldn't have to cap his nap. Good luck with the EBT I hope he tacks on for you and you get a semi-decent wake up.

[SusieQue]

He woke up at 1.50 this morning, we gave him a 7oz bottle and he drank most of it and went pretty much straight back to sleep. Could it be a growth spurt maybe? I'm worried I'm now creating a habit of feeding him in the night now! He still woke at 5.30 this morning, I tried putting him down for a nap at 8.30, he was shouting and wouldn't sleep so I got him up and tried him again 15 minutes later - still no luck. I ended up putting him in the pram and running some errands and he fell asleep within 10 minutes (he's still asleep in the pram). I'm home all day today so can hopefully get a good nap out of him later (here's praying!). I just don't know what's happened to him! Thanks so much for all your advice, even though he's my second I still feel like he's my first!

[Skadiver13]

It sounds as if he might be hungry? There is a growth spurt at 8 months or so but your DS could just be going through later? I don't know. But it sounds as if he ate that much it might be hunger? Maybe try again tonight and see hwat happens? You could also try upping his ounces during the day. I would say he's capable of sleeping through the night with out it but he may just need more during the day to do so? What happened the rest of the day?

Thanks so much for all your advice, even though he's my second I still feel like he's my first!

I hear ya. My second is only 4M old and completely 100% different then my first so I"m figuring it all out all over again.

[SusieQue]

Unfortunately he didn't have a good day yesterday, he woke up at 10.30, I tried him for another nap at 1, was back and forth in his room until 2 when he finally fell asleep for half an hour. Last night he woke up at 11.30 and I gave him a bottle, he took about 4 ounces and back to sleep until 5.30. I've just put him back to bed for a nap but he's up there shouting. I just can't seem to get his nap times right at the moment and it's driving me slowly insane! I think I'll just give up on sleep and wait until he crashes on the floor!

[Skadiver13]

Sorry it's such a struggle hun. My ds was exactly the same. The only thing I can think of if he's absolutely not tired at all is he UT? Some kids just need more A times than most? Also my DD needs almost a full a time even after a short nap or she'll fight it to the ens.

[SusieQue]

Things are just going from bad to worse, he's waking at least twice in the night and refusing all naps in his cot - it's like he has completely forgotten how to sleep. I just don't know what to do anymore. I've got DS1 at home and I just can't spend hours at his crib trying to get him to sleep. I'm either putting him down UT or OT but he is just refusing at the moment. Here was our EASY yesterday

WU 5.15 after night waking a at 11.30 and 2.30 (both times we gave bottle but was still a struggle to get him to sleep
Cuddled off until 6.15 then up for the day
Put to bed at 9 but shouted for ages and eventually just got him up
Bottle 10.15, fell asleep and put to bed
WU 12.30
He wouldn't have a catnap at 4 so put to bed at 5.30

Then he woke last night at 11 (gave him a bottle but he still needed cuddling to sleep) then awake at 4am, gave bottle and he fell asleep until 6.10 this morning.

I tried him for a nap at 9.30 but he was shouting again so I got him up and put in the pram and he was asleep by 10am, woke at 10.30. He had some lunch and I've just tried him for a nap at 1 and he's been shouting and crying so I just got him up. DS1 starts school in two weeks so will need collecting at 2.45, so DS2 will need to nap before then and I just can't see it happening at the moment. Does anyone have any ideas? I'm wondering if PUPD would help as he used to fall asleep independently and I just don't know what has changed. I've decided that tonight I'm going to give him a bottle of water rather than milk as I wonder if this is reinforcing the night wakings

[SusieQue]

Things are just going from bad to worse, he's waking at least twice in the night and refusing all naps in his cot - it's like he has completely forgotten how to sleep. I just don't know what to do anymore. I've got DS1 at home and I just can't spend hours at his crib trying to get him to sleep. I'm either putting him down UT or OT but he is just refusing at the moment. Here was our EASY yesterday

WU 5.15 after night waking a at 11.30 and 2.30 (both times we gave bottle but was still a struggle to get him to sleep
Cuddled off until 6.15 then up for the day
Put to bed at 9 but shouted for ages and eventually just got him up
Bottle 10.15, fell asleep and put to bed
WU 12.30
He wouldn't have a catnap at 4 so put to bed at 5.30

Then he woke last night at 11 (gave him a bottle but he still needed cuddling to sleep) then awake at 4am, gave bottle and he fell asleep until 6.10 this morning.

I tried him for a nap at 9.30 but he was shouting again so I got him up and put in the pram and he was asleep by 10am, woke at 10.30. He had some lunch and I've just tried him for a nap at 1 and he's been shouting and crying so I just got him up. DS1 starts school in two weeks so will need collecting at 2.45, so DS2 will need to nap before then and I just can't see it happening at the moment. Does anyone have any ideas? I'm wondering if PUPD would help as he used to fall asleep independently and I just don't know what has changed. I've decided that tonight I'm going to give him a bottle of water rather than milk as I wonder if this is reinforcing the night wakings

[Skadiver13]

When you say he's shouting is he literally shouting like he's not tired or crying and sounds tired but can't settle. It sounds pretty developmental to me. I know it' snot a lot of help but honestly it might work for you just to stop stressing so much about it (although I know you are exhausted). Take a look at gradual withdrawal link Toddlers: Walk In/Walk Out vs. The Gradual Withdrawal Method (HOW TO CHOOSE) and see if this might help you a bit with the independent sleep.

As for the 11 wakeup I wouldn't have given him a bottle then i would have just tried to resettle as you know he's not hungry at that time.

Have you thought about just setting naps at a certain time for a week or two to help combat OT and keep your sanity? Just a thought.

[SusieQue]

I think I've been putting him down too soon and he's shouting that he's UT, then that escalates to proper crying with tears. He only slept about 40 minutes at 2 today so we put him down for BT at 5.45 to try and ward off OT, but he was babbling away for about 10 minutes and then started to ramp up and he eventually needed to be cuddled to sleep. I'm going to start the set nap times tomorrow, as we'll need to do this anyway when DS1 starts school properly.

[Skadiver13]

ok.. If I remember correctly Set naps are good and can be 30min on ether side of your set time. Also it needs to be done for a while before you see any change so I wouldn't do any massive tweaking before hand. If you google "set naps, babywhisperer" you'll find a whole bunch of threads about it.