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Offline FPT23

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EWs and first nap question?
« on: September 01, 2016, 16:24:50 pm »
Real quick question here! Hopefully someone can shoot some advice!

When you guys have an EW, do you still have the first nap according to their current A time? For example, if baby wakes at 5am... The nap would come at 8am... But my concern is the short day. Bedtime would arrive around 5pm ish, give or take.

How do y'all handle this?

Also, there are times he stays awake at that 5am (not crying; babbling on) and he sometimes falls back to sleep and wakes again about 30mins-1hr later. Would the first nap still come at the same A time? I've noticed mine can barely make his A time when that happens. Tired from te EW despite having dosed off again. It's getting us to where we are lost on the morning A time b/c we can't pin point his actual WU time or it confuses us on what to do at the end of the day.

What do y'all do? Hope I made sense haha! Thank you! :D
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Re: EWs and first nap question?
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2016, 18:08:12 pm »
You might find it easier to do a set nap time for the first sleep.  So if WU varies between say 5 and 6am and you have a 3hr a time then set the nap at 8.30am and just leave it there until proof it needs to move (refusal, short nap due to UT, WU gets earlier and earlier).
Then for the rest of the day you do your regular A times based on the previous nap WU time.
My DS had some A time and some kind of set naps (roughly based on A but really having to fit into a certain time frame) due to our circumstances and he was okay on that combo.


Offline Skadiver13

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Re: EWs and first nap question?
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2016, 19:54:30 pm »
I found if I had an EW, if I kept making the nap too early the EW would keep happening. I went to set naps at around 10 months because of this issue and it worked for me exactly as Creations explained it. :)
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Offline FPT23

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Re: EWs and first nap question?
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2016, 14:23:20 pm »
Thank you ladies :)

Set naps do you think would be ok at his age? Yes he's normally 3hr A times..

Creations, your suggestion of a set nap around 8:30am.. I see what you mean. My concern is, that nap is early for his day...causing a shorter day. So he will end up with either a 3rd nap (which we haven't had in sometime) and drag his BT late (around 9pm) or his BT would land around 5pm ish if I don't do a 3rd nap AP. Kwim? I was hoping 9am for his first nap?? But I know that's like 4 hrs and he will be OT. He's a good napper. I don't mind that 8:30am nap but I fear the early day. Any nap before 9am would leave me with a short day. Hope I make sense :)

So what would I do on days he wakes at a good hour; 7am for example. His nap would usually be around 10am or so. In that case would I still continue the 8:30/9am (give or take that 30mins) or go onto 10am? Given the 5/6am WU, I guess the nap can be consistent give or take 30 mins. I don't mind 6am wake up... We are up getting ready for school anyway. It's the 5am that gets me confused on his first nap- and how short/long his day would be.

Thank you Skydiver! Do you think set naps is good for this age? His WU varies lately, is all.

I also would like to mention for the last 2 days he has short napped the mornings. 35 mins. We've had to resettle.. :(

Thanks ladies ;D
« Last Edit: September 02, 2016, 15:36:23 pm by FPT23 »
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Re: EWs and first nap question?
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2016, 15:17:39 pm »
If you feel and experience that the first nap needs to be at 9am then I'd go for that as the "set", yes there is a chance of OT but over time it could also help to keep BT at the right time and discourage the earlier WU in the morning.
He needs to go to bed at a time when you know he is neither UT or OT and when he can do a full night sleep and wake at an acceptable time. What I mean is, if he only ever does 11 hr nights don't expect 12hrs, some LOs tack on if they miss some day sleep for sure but we aren't talking about tacking on here are we, we are talking about the general day to day routine.
If you feel you know the reason for the earlier WU then that's another place to look at tweaking. So is there a super long A time to bed making him OT and EW as result? Or is BT early and he has just finished sleeping but at an earlier hour than you'd hope for? Or is the first nap sometimes coming too early meaning he is starting to wake earlier?

I do on days he wakes at a good hour; 7am for example. His nap would usually be around 10am or so. In that case would I still continue the 8:30/9am (give or take that 30mins) or go onto 10am?
One of the things you said is that you weren't sure when to do the first nap. If you are after a consistent time for the first nap then a consistent time for WU would be helpful (although not vital because you can do the set time for nap 1), so you can wake him at 6am if you're happy with 6am and this totally avoids there being days when he wakes later and you have to adapt the entire day as a result.  Or if you're really hoping for a consistent 7am WU and he sometimes does this then what I'd do is wait for a day he does the 7am WU and shift the entire day from there on.  It likely means later BT though so be sure you are ok with less Y time of an evening before shifting it all ;)


Offline FPT23

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Re: EWs and first nap question?
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2016, 02:59:31 am »
Thank u very much for your response creations. Much obliged :)

But... You've now opened up a can of worms w this advice ;) !!!

Honestly, the goal (I'm sure most mom goals hehe) would be 7pm BT and 7pm WU time. I'm happy with 6-6:30am too actually. So now, getting more into detail with your last post....

I do prefer 9am as a "set" first nap. Anything before and I end up with a short day. Kwim? Today was one of those days. These EWs have begun to get him OT NOW. I ended up trying a nap today at 8:30 am after his 5am WU... This is the first time in 3 days that he's had a long nap without needing to resettle at the 35 min mark (OT) ...(3.5 A time) so bc he had that long morning stretch when he's usually at 3hrs... The rest of the day(s) have been a little messy. Or continued with the 3hr A time. I don't really want to shorten it if it was a long nap. So today he did 1.5 morning nap and I kept the same A for the next A... He gave me an OT nap of 1hr & 10 mins. He was pretty tired. It was DS1 bday party and after 2.5 hr A, he passed out in the car for a CN of 15 mins... I'm sure he will be catching up after today. Tbh, his first morning naps I've never PD earlier-- and the EWs still have continued. I was stretching to 9am with 4hr A time though which has prb caused OT NOW at this point. One thing I will add is that at 5am, he's quite awake. Babbling and such. Doesn't seeeeeeem tired? Majority of the time he seems ready to go ::)

Can you explain this "tacking on" for me? I don't quite comprehend that? ...I think he's more of a 10/11 hr night baby. He's done the occasional 12hr but more from just being super tired. There's been nights that even 8pm got me 6am wakes. He's never really been consistent with his wake times. I do know that he's never been one to EW and would sleep in, even. Haha! Those were the days ;) ...! But I wouldn't even consider the 11hr EWs but for example, yst he dragged out his BT after a CN pushed him out, and he still woke at 5am. So this is just a mystery...

I don't think this was an EW OT problem..(NOW it might be after several 5am days) I figured UT because of the way he was waking at 5am so chatty. When he's OT I can easily bring him back to bed and he would fall asleep again. But today's EW for example, he was just happy and up. So I'm confused. I think to answer your questions, it's very possible the EW was because of an EBT. I personally prefer 7-8pm... BUT, I was caught in the common "if he CNs BT is super late but if I don't BT is super early" situation. Not to mention he's kinda dropped the CN and it's pretty hard to get him to do. It has to be APOP (stroller, rocking/holding, nursing) Normally if a CN falls after 6pm I won't do it and just do EBT. I think I need longer A times before I can fix that? He's 3 hrs A time for all A times. Before BT too. If he had bad naps or something asleep by 2.45/50 was pretty easy. But he's a good IS and I rarely need to actually help him UNLESS he's OT... He was fighting BT hard and waking a lot for the most of last month but once I pushed A times it went away. So, how do you suggest I handle that EBT EW issue? I always get confused-- should u do BT of 6-6:30pm or CN and have a 9pm BT? That hasn't been consistent either as well as WU times... I would just love a BT of 7/8pm. But again, with the 3-2 transition we've been at... ::)

How can I attempt a 7pm BT? When I get that 7am wake (it's been awhile lol!) how do I "shift" his day and push for a later BT? Honestly 6-7 is fine with me. 5am just screws the whole day and I end up with OT baby or super short day....OR a lot of naps to push the day out... But then EW from having all his sleep he needs lol

Hope this wasn't too much or confusing haha ;) thanks for the help. You're great :D
« Last Edit: September 04, 2016, 03:04:38 am by FPT23 »
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Re: EWs and first nap question?
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2016, 08:01:05 am »
Can you explain this "tacking on" for me? I don't quite comprehend that? ...I think he's more of a 10/11 hr night baby. He's done the occasional 12hr but more from just being super tired.
Those occasional 12hr nights are tacking on. He was tired from less day time sleep (eg when a nap was interrupted for some reason or when dropping a nap) and tacked on that sleep to his night sleep making a longer night. Mine did that for nap drops and increased night sleep from 10.5hrs to 12 but the thing is those are either one-offs or short phases of longer nights they are not IMO the main routine they are during transitions from one routine to another even if the transition takes a while and the longer nights go on for a month it's still a phase of transition in my view.  The only time mine REALLY increased night length (so not his usual 10.5 and not his phases of 12hr or even the odd 13hr he did when dropping a nap) was at 2.5yo when all naps were dropped, no day sleep at all and nights increased to a REGULAR 12hr (yes that 7-7 at last, I only waited 31 months for it).  Thankfully he obliged me with 12hr nights for the following couple of years :)  Only around 4.5yo nights reduced to about 11/11.5hr.  Over this summer he has both decreased (early wake ups prob due to sun coming through the black out but also appeared to need less sleep in last term of school) and increased (looks like he sleeps longer nights when home all summer, poss more exercise or just more chilled out and relaxed enough to sleep better) and looks like we are back to 11/11.5 again.

If you want to shift the day I'd suggest setting naps, BT and WU for a bit to establish a different routine.
WU 7
A 3
S 10-12
A 3
S 3-5
A 3
BT 8

If he can do 3hrs A before BT (mine could not) and getting good naps too then really the above routine should just work (*should*! ha!).  Maybe the difficulty you've had in shifting the day has been because you've put a CN in there to bridge the gap between nap 2 and the later BT.  With a CN in there he likely had too much day sleep and then a shorter night. Without the CN you are doing EBT so after a full night sleep he wakes earlier.  Both those options are great for avoiding OT but don't really help to shift the day. Shifting is not necessarily easy yk but I've seen people do it, if you want to grit your teeth and deal with some OT for a few days to get there.  If I had my time again it's likely what I'd do, I had no idea how to move the day when my DS was that young and begrudgingly put up with the 5am starts and he was so desperate for his BT in the evening I felt I couldn't stretch him.  He ran on 23hr days instead of 24 so it was always a stretch to drag him through to BT...then the 5am start again.  I always pushed for the clock changes because they were unavoidable and really shifting a day along is the same thing it's just that we are perhaps less inclined to bring on the OT because it is out of choice.  I would say excellent and total black out is probably also needed, as I experienced with DS this summer even at 5yo chinks in the black out can cause 5am WUs regardless of how tired he is or what time BT comes.

Sorry, it's no magic wand.


Offline FPT23

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Re: EWs and first nap question?
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2016, 15:13:01 pm »
Thanks Creations :)

Oh that's what it meaaaans :D ...yes I agree with that not being the "normal" routine because it never stuck around for us. As I mentioned previously, 12 hr nights were random and on days he was OT. We are more on the 11-10 hr nights (although last night he gave me 8hr night sigh...)

That routine you posted above was our usual for awhile. We just have randomly gone through one of the many phases with these infants ;) ...just trying to get back on track ::) ...will set naps really be efficient at his age? I can't get a 7am wake up? So what about on days he does 5am 6am 6:30.. 7? ....the set naps wouldn't be accurate, kwim? Like, if his set nap is 9 am but wakes at 7am... I doubt the set nap will work and then it would be another EBT due to short naps, kwim? These inconsistent WU times and EWs are just throwing off his normal routine.. I would love that routine above though! Yes the CN causes too much day sleep. He's always been LSN and does better the times I've capped naps. But he's a pretty good sleeper that I've had to wake from naps often. Haha. I would be good with shifting the day and not having to do that CN. I rarely do CN. As I mentioned, it's been awhile (except the last few days I have because of EWs and short days) since I've done CNs... But I do get more night sleep without it... But then end up w the early start of our day and a short end to our day too.

DS1 sounds like ur LO! I couldn't stretch at all! Or felt I couldn't. I too put up with 5am for years... :( ...would hope to and willing to, so diff this time haha. He handles OT a bit better. Haha 

Also, how much day sleep would he need now at this age? 2 naps of 1.5 generally correct? ...usually when he does nap in the morning, should I cap at 1.5? Or allow for a solid 2hr nap.. And cap the next? If I do that, I will still end up with an EBT... Which will cause an early rise the next day. His nap would maybe be over around 3pm and then need BT at 6... If I do a CN, that caused too much day sleep and he will still be up and ready to party at the break of dawn ::) :p ...

How could I help this cycle... Along. Here's a look into a few EASYs I've jotted down:

8/30

WU: 5:00 resettled after up 1.5hr

E 7
A
S 9:30-11:15

E
A
S (PD 1:55 OT) 2:00-3:30

BT: (PD 6:30 easy ish) 6:45/6:50

No NWs 6am

8/31

WU: 6

E
A
S (PD 8:50.. Seemed OT?) 9:00ish-10:30

E 10:30
A
E 1:00
S (PD 1:30 UT, babbling kicking) 1:40-2:15 OT resettled 3:15

BT: 6:30/7

NW: 3:30, 5:30, wake at 6:40

9/1

WU: 6:40

E
A
S (PD 9:15 OT) 9:20-10:10 resettled - 11:10

E
A
S (PD 2:00 easy) 2:05 -3:30 we woke

BT: PD late 6:40. Asleep by 6:50

NWs: 11:00, 5:00 am wake no resettle

9/3

WU: 5

E
A
S (PD 8:30 fast) 8:35-10:00am

E
A
S 12:50-2:00 OT fussy

E
A
S 4:10-4:30 ish. Car catnap

E
A
S 6:30-6:50 CN in the car

BT ...needed help asleep by 8:45

Woke at 5:45 did not resettle.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2016, 16:52:45 pm by FPT23 »
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Offline Skadiver13

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Re: EWs and first nap question?
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2016, 00:48:33 am »
So what about on days he does 5am 6am 6:30.. 7? ....the set naps wouldn't be accurate, kwim? Like, if his set nap is 9 am but wakes at 7am... I doubt the set nap will work and then it would be another EBT due to short naps, kwim? These inconsistent WU times and EWs are just throwing off his normal routine..

That's kind of the point of set naps. For some they use it to get a baby back on track like in your case if you used a set nap of 9 but then got consecutive days of 7am wakeups then you know your lo is back on track and caught up on sleep an you can set that nap later. But you need to do a set nap for multiple days if not more for it to be a true set nap schedule. Many don't set naps until after 12months for this reason when they're lo's have dropped to 1 nap and it's easier that way.


Also, how much day sleep would he need now at this age? 2 naps of 1.5 generally correct?

You could take a look at some sample routines here: chronological EASY samples, 4-6 months

But it's more about what amount of sleep is he going to get over a 24hr period. Most little ones do about 13-15hrs per 24hr period of sleep. So if your lo is doing 11 at night you can expect 2-4hrs during the day. So in regards to capping naps only you can know if that's what your lo needs. I was never a fan of capping naps except the afternoon nap to preserve bedtime. At this age with good naps you can shoot for a 13hr day and he'd be fine I think.
On the days you got 2 good naps you seemed to have a better day. You said in the first two days that he seemed OT but he pulled an 1.5hr nap so was he truly OT or just over stimulated?
On the 30th you got two good naps, 13hr day 11hr night. Looked good to me. On the days you did a CN or more it seemed he had more night wakings?
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Re: EWs and first nap question?
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2016, 03:04:09 am »
Hi thanks for your response! :)

Yes I didn't do a set nap until DS1 dropped to 1 nap but he was HSN and took forever to drop naps. He still naps! And he's 5! Haha! ...he was prb 1.5 by the time he was good with dropping the PM nap. Oh ok I see....! So technically if he does a 11hr night it's not considered EW right? How about 10? ...see, he used to do later wakes but since he was in this 3-2 and we are juggling that A time to BT, his BT is normally around 6-6:30. I was waiting to get a later WU time to work it all out but I can't if he's going to bed so early. I was wondering how to change that? So until he's able to handle a longer A? ...

He sure was busy catching up today... I capped his nap at 2.15hrs! This morning! And then again his second nap and he still passed out at BT. Poor thing :( how would you suggest is the best way to catch up a baby from a bad couple of OT days?

Believe me, I would love to avoid capping naps but he will sleep. I realized after awhile when I capped naps, nights went better and he slept longer. It seems he's more on the lower end of sleep needs or he's just a really good napper? I'm not sure haha! Naps have never been an issue. Thanks for the link! :)

Well actually, in the above EASYs, none of the days had CNs except for yst. So, some days w/ good naps I got many night wakes and some nights none haha. I really couldn't spot patterns :( lol

When he wakes at 5am he's happy. Could this mean he's UT/too much day sleep or needs a push? On 8/31 he was still on 2.5 A times more or less. He's now at 2.50/3hr but since I've been trying the set nap deal, it seems he's ok with 3.15 A time... He'll give me a long nap but his next A times are tough.

Thanks for you help SkyDiver :)
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Offline Skadiver13

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Re: EWs and first nap question?
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2016, 16:01:33 pm »
o technically if he does a 11hr night it's not considered EW right? How about 10?
It's all relative. I know my son typically would only do a 10.5hr night no matter what so I tried to make sur he got enough day sleep to at least get to 13.5hrs total sleep in a 24hr period. When he got older I had to cap his nap to preserve bedtime and his nights slowly got longer as his naps got shorter but that was closer to 3yrs old.

When he wakes at 5am he's happy. Could this mean he's UT/too much day sleep or needs a push?
It could mean any of those things or it could just be developmental. Not a help I know but only you know your little one and what they act like when they are OT/UT/OS.

He's now at 2.50/3hr but since I've been trying the set nap deal, it seems he's ok with 3.15 A time... He'll give me a long nap but his next A times are tough.

It could be that he needs a long A in the AM to get a good nap but then as the day goes on he needs shorter A's to keep from getting OT. That was my son .He needed a super long A time but then needed a much shorter A time before bed to go to sleep. Even know he can pass out in the car at 5 and still be in bed at 7.
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Offline FPT23

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Re: EWs and first nap question?
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2016, 20:09:45 pm »
Thanks SkyDiver :)

Oh well his normal was about 10.5/11 also. He's def OT now after the EWs! 2 hr naps and he slept ALL NIGHT... His 12 hrs (he did have 2 small wakes.. One around 9pm then 11pm but settle quickly on his own. That might have been bc of all the day sleep.) He's been fussy all day and wanting to just go to sleep. Passing out quickly and again taking super long naps :( poor thing

Hmm well I'm not sure about this EW. It wasn't common for us haha! It shall pass haha!

I think he does need maybe shorter A times. How far back would u do it? 15 mins? I used to think he wanted a short morning longer A in the middle then again normal to BT... But when he started the 45 min naps, it was always his first one. I always end up pushing his morning first before all others since that's when he shows me w his nap that he's UT. I'll give 2.45/50 for BT.

...well today I continued with the set nap despite his later wake at 6:45... I still tried a 9am ish nap. He refused it and we had to AP eventually. But he pushed it out to almost 3hr A, anyway. Lol. Didn't work too well. He was UT. So it seemed and now his second nap he was seemingly OT and of course gave me that short nap :( but resettled.

How would you suggest catching them up from OT? :)
« Last Edit: September 05, 2016, 21:00:06 pm by FPT23 »
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Offline Skadiver13

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Re: EWs and first nap question?
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2016, 00:08:08 am »
Just remind me why you want to do set naps? Sorry just couldn't find the initial reason? If he's doing good naps and has a good first A time? It was early wakings right? But if you are starting to get later wakeup you may not need a set nap time? But if you are going to stick with a set nap you want to pick the time you would want his first nap to be. So if you want a 630 am wake up then you would set your nap for say 915/930. So set your nap not on what is wakings are now but what you want them to be. You can do 30min on ether side so of that set time so if he wakes early you could do a 9 if he wakes later like today you could do a 10am nap .
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Re: EWs and first nap question?
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2016, 15:26:09 pm »
Hello :)

Well the set naps was an initially Creations idea on how to handle the first nap with an EW. As a way to also avoid a pattern if i PD too early and he keeps EWing bc I'm setting down for a nap.

If that's the case then we pretty much have had set naps. Even with EWs at 5am I still try and get as close to 9am as we can. If he wakes at 6/7am he still goes down around 9-10. So in a sense it's a "set nap" ... Give or take 30 mins. Our WU times are never consistent. That is why Creastions was suggesting I guess to fix his clock in a way.

For the last 2 nights he's had 12 hr nights so I know he's catching up. He's woke around 6:30 both days which I'm ok with but still pretty OT the whole day and passing out at BT. Hopefully today he's better with those last 2 nights. I'm curious, since his A time is now quite long enough yet, and we still do the "to CN or not to CN" dance, his BT normally lands around the 6pm area FOR NOW IF I don't CN... My question is, if he normally does 10.5/11 hr nights, how could I ever push his BT so I could get a later WU. If not I will be stuck with those 5am's and he would be up and ready to go. Kwim? Since he will have had a full nights rest.

What advice would you suggest for that? :)

And one other random topic while I'm on here hehe..... School pick ups land around his second nap of the day. My DH is home for now so he stays with DS2 while he naps and I PU DS1. However, his shift will change soon and he won't be home. How can I attenpt a good afternoon nap if I will either have to EW him from the nap or really push his A time OR, end up with a power nap in the car :( ....this can really affect our BT and possibly OT. What do you think? :(

Thanks :D

Ps: today he was up since 4:30 and never resettled. I'm up at 6 with school runs. It's going to be a long day. He had a total of 13hrs sleep.. If that's the total of sleep they get I'll prb be stuck with 4-5am wakes until he drops to one nap then? :(
« Last Edit: September 07, 2016, 11:59:23 am by FPT23 »
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Offline Skadiver13

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Re: EWs and first nap question?
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2016, 01:47:47 am »
My question is, if he normally does 10.5/11 hr nights, how could I ever push his BT so I could get a later WU. If not I will be stuck with those 5am's and he would be up and ready to go.

Honestly, dropping naps there is no good answer. You can push the A times to drop the CN But risk him getting OT. Some kids are ok with more day sleep and less night sleep until they are down to one nap and then start lenghining their night. My son was a 10.5hr a night sleeper for a very very long time so we held on to that CN for a while until he could handle enough A time to get him to bed without being OT. There is no quick fix for that sorry.
How can I attenpt a good afternoon nap if I will either have to EW him from the nap or really push his A time OR, end up with a power nap in the car  ....this can really affect our BT and possibly OT. What do you think?

How much longer would his A time be if you waited till you got home? OR how long would his nap be if you had to EW him for the pickup?
My dreamed for Angel Baby DD (other than dreaded 40min naps) Born 4/30/16
Reflux, MSPI, Love my Spirited,textbook little munchkin DS Born 5/17/2012



**Siobhan**