Pu/pd questions

[Gummi_bear63]

I am a 4 month old who is an awful sleeper. My fault I'm sure but I need to fix it before I go nuts. I like the middle of the road nature of pu/pd and have read about it like crazy. What my question is, I suppose, is what exactly will happen when my baby eventually falls asleep. I can't imagine how he will go from crying to eventually not crying enough to stay down. Or I suppose he will get to the mantra cry and I leave him?  I just can't imagine how it will end. Does anyone have any experience and can tell me how it happened for them?  Also how long it took you?  I'm so nervous about how long it will carry on.

My other question is-will it likely fix all my sleep issues?  How successful did you find it? Current ones being a wake up 30 minutes after being put down each night, an inability to be settled and even rocked to sleep some nights, and a complete inability to nap anywhere but my arms?  Last night I couldn't get him to sleep at all and got so desperate he slept in the swing from 4:30am on. Need to go something soon.

Also-I'm thinking of getting my husband to do it first-both for the physical and emotional toll it will take on me. However he's never put my son to sleep. Has anyone tried this and had success?  Almost wondering if it would be better because he has no sleep associations with him.

Thanks!  Looking forward to answers!

[jessmum46]

Hi, and welcome

What my question is, I suppose, is what exactly will happen when my baby eventually falls asleep. I can't imagine how he will go from crying to eventually not crying enough to stay down. Or I suppose he will get to the mantra cry and I leave him?

I think this can vary.  To be honest it is not unusual sometimes in the early stages for LOs just to get so tired out by the process of protesting that they just can't manage to stay awake any more and may even sleep mid-cry.  Some may become calmer and start mantra crying, in which case it is fine to step back a bit, though given your LO has never gone to sleep alone before I would reassure and settle in the crib using shh pat.  As much as people think of them as separate things, shh pat and PUPD are really (in my view) part of a continuum - at this young age I would be trying shh pat first really and using PUPD as more of a last resort.  Gentler on you both

I think prepare yourself for 2 really tough days, then it should get easier.  There is often a 'regression' around day 5, but not always, but I would say consistency for a week should make a big difference. 

However - before you start could you post your routine for us?  Any sort of sleep training will only be effective when paired with the right kind of routine, so LO is tired enough to sleep and not overtired.  The other thing to consider is whether other other factors could be making it hard for your LO to sleep - pain is a big one, particularly if LO has reflux or similar.  No sleep training will be able to sort out those problems unfortunately so if pain or discomfort could be a factor I would check with your doctor before starting any sleep training.

It's fine for either you or your DH to do it - whoever you feel is likely to be most consistent really and less likely to 'give up' because it is hard work.  You can even tag team - so you do one nap, DH does the next - just I would avoid swapping partway through.

Hope that is some help

[Gummi_bear63]

Thanks for the response.  It was helpful but made me realize I have lot's of other questions now!

Basically, my baby doesn't have a routine right now.  I read every book I was given before having my son desperately trying to answer the question "What do I do with my baby all day?" looking for a routine and I couldn't find anything, just they "do anything the first three months" approach. Didn't get this book until my baby was a bit older.  Anyway, I was thinking of trying the 4 month plus, never had a routine route in the book, which implied that I go right to PU/PD from nap on day 1 to get baby into EASY, but maybe I misunderstood. I'm not crazy about going to pu/pd right away I just thought that was the suggested approach.  I know I have lot's of accidental parenting to undo.

Basically my problems are:

-baby will not nap more than 30 minutes, and this must be in my arms. If it put him down he wakes up within 5 minutes and there is no getting him back
-extremely difficult to get him to sleep these days, even with all sorts of accidental parenting rocking, patting, shushing, bouncing, etc
-he was starting to sleep longer stretches, and then suddenly in the last week (sleep regression??) I can't even get him to sleep enough to put down at night.  I I spend hours each night trying to get him back to sleep and have been co-sleeping out of utter desperation the last two nights because every time I put him down he wakes up shortly after and I have to start all over
-I know he is extremely over tired as a result but am at a loss to get him to sleep more

Questions are:
-should I continue to hold him to sleep for naps for awhile to get him sleeping longer in the day, or try and do something to fix this as well as nights?
-how do I get him on an EASY if I can't get him to nap more than 30 minutes? 
-what do I do when my baby wakes after 5 minutes and he's wide awake? start the pat and shush again from scratch until the time is up?
-how is pat and shush going to help him sleep on his own-is the idea to gradually take stuff away?  I've never been clear about this
-how does baby get onto his back if I prop him on side for pat and shush?  Move him when he's asleep-that terrifies me!!!

I know that's a lot but I'm very desperate and really need some advise! 

[jessmum46]

I was thinking of trying the 4 month plus, never had a routine route in the book, which implied that I go right to PU/PD from nap on day 1 to get baby into EASY, but maybe I misunderstood.

You didn't misunderstand   Tracy did recommend going for a really strict 4h EASY routine with PUPD to get something established for a LO that has never had any type of routine.  I think probably the collective 'wisdom' of those of us who spend time here would suggest this is a super tough way to do it, and it may be a little more gentle to just observe your LO for 2 days, recording all sleep cues/times/lengths etc and then post here so we can help you with a plan.  Often huge improvements can be made just by making some simple routine suggestions such as not keeping LO awake so long (overtiredness tends to be a big problem with many LOs).  If you fancy keeping a diary for the next 48h then post it here I'm happy to see what I can suggest for you

Questions are:
-should I continue to hold him to sleep for naps for awhile to get him sleeping longer in the day, or try and do something to fix this as well as nights?
-how do I get him on an EASY if I can't get him to nap more than 30 minutes? 
-what do I do when my baby wakes after 5 minutes and he's wide awake? start the pat and shush again from scratch until the time is up?
-how is pat and shush going to help him sleep on his own-is the idea to gradually take stuff away?  I've never been clear about this
-how does baby get onto his back if I prop him on side for pat and shush?  Move him when he's asleep-that terrifies me!!!

Will try to answer all of these!  Yell if I miss anything

Given he isn't napping that well anyway, I'd go straight to shh pat/PUPD (your choice) for all naps and nights.  The more chances he gets to practice, the quicker he will 'get it'.

30 min naps are very common with overtired babies.  Most babies once the routine is a bit more sorted are actually very capable of sleeping longer   Which is why we suggest to observe for a couple of days first and it may become more obvious what might help.  That said, EASY is not meant to be a schedule so even for true short-napping babies it is possible to come up with a flexible routine that suits you all.

If he wakes after 5 mins of a nap that suggests to me he never really got past the first light stage of sleep, and certainly isn't rested.  I would be thinking about how you might help him through that phase to avoid it altogether.  If you are using shh pat, in the first instance you would be shh  patting all the way until he is in a deep sleep (20 mins or so) so hopefully you would avoid that early jolt awake anyway   I think your comment about 'until time is up' relates to Tracy's quite intense schedule for starting at 4 months - as I said above it is perfectly ok to do it that way, but honestly I think if you were planning for a 2h nap as per schedule, and he wakes after 5 mins, that's a totally miserable 1h55 mins remaining trying to resettle!!  As a general rule with resettling I would say spend a few mins only, you'll get a sense quickly (max 10-15 mins) if it's going to happen or not.  Personally, I feel life is too short to spend all day resettling and would instead just get up, move on with the day and move the next nap early if needed.

Shh pat is a tool to teach LO to settle in bed.  As he grows more comfortable, you gradually shh and pat less, e.g. lighter/slower pat, fade out the shh, do it for less time so that he does more of the falling asleep himself.  So yes, gradually take it away

Re propping on his side - not strictly necessary.  You don't have to do it 'by the book'.  We all know advice is for babies to sleep on their backs so I would adapt it for that position.  With DD I sat beside her an patted the opposite hip with my hand across her nappy area.  DS didn't like shh pat really so I stroked his head or just rested a hand on his tummy with a gentle shh sound.

Hope that helps you a bit more - really it's a case of just trying it and seeing what happens.  You can't plan for every eventuality but we will be here to cheer you on xx

[Gummi_bear63]

Thanks for the help so far!  I'm getting pretty desperate. Worst part is he just started to get longer stretches of sleep at night for a couple of days after being a terrible sleeper since birth before becoming worse than a newborn It's making me a bit crazy to fix this!  His naps have always sucked and I know he's crazy overtired, but I can never seem to get him to nap longer. I hold him for naps so at least he sleeps what he does.

I will record our day for the next 2 days and post for advise. Thanks for the offer. Hopefully you will have some insight.

[jessmum46]

Will look forward to your post x

[Gummi_bear63]

I know I was going to record 2 days but today has kind of gone to heck because last night was so bad and my mom came over so I could sleep a bit so I have no ideas what has gone on.  Since I'm so desperate I will post about yesterday in hopes that this will be enough. 

*unless otherwise stated, it took rocking/bouncing, patting, and shushing in arms for at least 15 minutes.  Usually random patting and shushing to keep him asleep as long as he is.  He always fights sleep and literally wiggles and pushes away from me when trying to settle him.  This was a pretty good nap day for us!

7:45 Wake
*Send of with husband after desperate night*
9:15 Hubby feeds small bottle
9:30 Asleep(one quick eye rub and asleep quickly in my arms).  In my dark bedroom with sound machine.
9:55 Almost woke up!  Successfully kept him asleep
10:46 Awake(this is an amazing nap for us!).  Feed as previous feed was small.
12:00 First Eye Rub
12:26 Finally Asleep.  Very Grouchy.  May have tried a bit late....my fault!
1:10 Awake
1:45 Feed. Eye rub while feeding(usually only rubs eyes while feeding...hard for me to tell he is sleepy.  I usually go based on grouchiness)
1:55 Tried to get to sleep.  Particularly difficult meltdown. 
2:10 Asleep but very restless
3:05 Woke
4:30 Feed.  Rubbing eyes.
5:00 Sleep.  Lot's of eye rubbing while I tried to put down.
5:35 Wake
6:00 Fed(fussy...rubbing eyes furiously already..perhaps should have skipped bath but he was overdue for one-we don't do everynight...not sure if this would help him or not)
6:20 Bath
6:35 Feed and Story
7:00 Try to get asleep.  Finally down in crib at 7:40(better than it has been...)
8:35 First Wake Up....a miracle!  Hasn't slept past 30 mins after first put down in forever!  Feeling hopeful!!
Some time around 9:30.....lost all hope.  Held in my arms while hubby and I finish watching TV.  As has been happening lately, I could get him to sleep but he constantly squirms and won't settle.  Moves the second I stop one of patting/rocking/shushing he squirms and starts waking.  Dared trying to put him down when he seemed settled at 10:30....dire mistake.  Was awake on couch until 3:30am with baby that squirmed every time I stopped patting.  Smartened up and used shush from youtube...haha.  Eventually around that time he let me stop patting him(I would fall asleep and stop patting and he'd stir...this is last time I saw clock).  Woke a couple times before my mom got here at 8 and gave me a break(thank goodness!)

Not sure if that helps.  Clearly no schedule.  Not sure if I should do an EAS schedule when his naps are so short or some variation of that while I get them longer?? 

Also about pat shush-wondering if I should ease into it by putting him down in bed when he has first gone to sleep and sure to stir and pat/shush from there.  And when he's got that down put him in more and more awake?  Or dive in and put him down awake? 

I was perhaps patting 10 mins after asleep as I thought was correct.  Will try 20 next time.  He has a tendency to pop wide awake after many minutes of pat/shush and having to restart as it is. 

Any advise you can give will be greatly appreciated.  Things are so awful I think I have the strength now to do whatever it takes!!

Btw-does his behaviour sound like a normal 4 month sleep regression??  It seems too awful to be that but I can't seem to figure out if anything else is wrong.  Thought about teething but not sure as there is no sign of teeth yet, however he is grouchy during the day, but this could be lack of sleep!  Drools and bites things...but they always do that!  Who knows..

[Gummi_bear63]

Oh and not sure if I mentioned but all naps are in my arms.  Can't seem to put him down for naps no Matter how long I wait. At this point don't want to risk it...crying and freaking out to nap today!  Quite a production to get him asleep. Perhaps because grandma let him get overtired this morning, more so than usual.

[jessmum46]

Hugs, it's so exhausting when they don't sleep well isn't it?  Ok, from the day you posted I think there are somethings that might help

First A time was 1h45.  He wasn't hard to settle and you got a pretty good nap out of it - not quite the 'full' 1h30 that would be an ideal world kind of nap, but I'd take it!!  This tells me that this was close to the right awake time for him, possibly a bit on the short side but some babies do prefer their first awake time to be a little shorter.  I would aim for this consistently for the next few days - first nap about 1h45 after waking for the day.

The next thing I noticed was that although you thought you tried too late for the second nap, I actually think you tried too early   You started at only 1h15 or so A time, that is super short for a 4 month old, especially after a good nap.  I know he was eye rubbing but that might have actually been a 'rested' eye rub, boredom or just a random eye rub.  They aren't the most reliable signs all the time - yes important to note them but also to keep an eye on the clock to know what is 'reasonable'.  2h is pretty standard/typical A time at 4 months so anything significantly before that I would tend to ignore or try a change of scene first.  When he did eventually sleep at 1h40 A time, you got a 45 min nap - these can occur due to lots of reasons but UT is certainly one of them and that's what I'd probably put my money on this time.

I think what happened then is that short nap set you up for a bad afternoon of him being tired from a short nap, but then trying too soon again for naps, so the short nap cycle continued and he ended up very OT at bedtime.  (((Hugs))), that was a very rough night though for just OT....it could well be teeth/illness brewing I guess, both mine had teeth at 4 months. 

Anyway, assuming for now it is *just* routine, my suggestion for the next couple of days, even if you decide to go for naps in your arms for now just to try it, is to aim for 1h45 first A time, and 2h the rest of the day.  If you get a short nap then shorten the next A time slightly, but I really wouldn't go much less than 1h30 as a minimum even after a short nap. 

So let's say an 'ideal' day could look like:

WU 7.45
Nap 9.30-11 (let's be optimistic!)
Nap 1-2.30/3
Nap 4.30/5-5.45/6
BT 7.45ish

Or say it goes a bit wonky:

WU 7.45
Nap 9.30-10.15
Nap 12-12.45
Nap 2.30-3.15
Nap 4.45/5-5.30/6
BT 7.15/45

What do you think?

[jessmum46]

Oh with shh pat - fine to start out in your arms for now and then transition to putting down more awake x

[Gummi_bear63]

Thanks for the advise. I will give it a try!  I have thought he was not awake enough but he always seems tired so soon. I will give it a try though as his tired signs have been less clear lately so this very well could be the problem. I think I will try in my arms for a couple days and then tackle the pat-shush in bed if it's starting to look promising. Thanks again for the advise. I'll let you know how it goes!!

[jessmum46]

Hoping you've had a nice day today

[Gummi_bear63]

My efforts to get my little one to nap longer in my arms as a first step, using your suggested schedule, isn't going well at all.  I need to pat and shush him to keep him asleep even 30 minutes and I can still not get him to sleep much more than that most times no matter what I do(with the exception of one crazy long nap one day...perhaps too long).  I am getting to the end of my rope.  I just spent an hour getting him down into bed because I wait 20 minutes after he falls asleep and then he stirs just when I'm going to put him down.  And for all that, I know he will be up within 30 minutes and I'll do it all again to maybe get him to sleep another 30 minutes, maybe even less. 

I am not sure if I can go the pat-shush route, as I have let it go to long and now I can't imagine spending the months I think the pat-shush requires to improve his sleep issues.  I dread every nap and bedtime so much that it ruins my whole day some days.  He fights it so much and sometimes I think he'd be better in his crib because he's always trying to squirm and turn in my arms.  Most naps involve him freaking out and crying in my arms anyway.  I think I need to resort to the pu/pd now as I think this will take weeks rather than months, hopefully?

Am I correct?  Will pat-shush take months?  If I do pu/pd, I have some more questions.  You originally related it to pat-shush.  My question is, if I pat/shush to help sooth him in the crib while doing pu/pd, do I stop before he falls asleep because then I'm putting him to sleep??  Or can I do this if he will allow after the calming down enough to let me do this?  I'm confused about this part.  I'm quite scared about going through all this trauma and then having him wake up after 5 minutes-which is something he is likely to do.  I have tried the pat-shush in the past, and I would often think he was asleep and would be patting for 10 minutes and without me stopping he would shoot his eyes open and I'll have to start all over again calming him and getting him asleep.  Do I leave him to fuss for awhile and then begin pu/pd again when he cries?  Also, is there a time limit on this for naps? 

[jessmum46]

Oh hugs   You sound so very stressed out by it all - wish I could come give you a little break for a while

Before I suggest anything more, can I just be certain there is nothing that could be causing him any discomfort right now - nothing like reflux or tummy troubles?  It just makes me wonder as he isn't really even sleeping well in your arms (would he sleep longer if you held him for the whole nap?) and most LOs who have 'just' prop issues will at least sleep reasonably ok somewhere.  No sleep training will work with a LO in pain   You know him best though - if you are happy this is just habit and nothing else then read on

Did you log what happened the last few days in terms of sleep timings?  Would help to see it if so, but don't worry if not

I guess with PUPD and shh pat it to some extent has to be what you are happy/comfortable with doing.  Neither is 'better' than the other really, and I wouldn't expect either to take weeks/months with consistency and an appropriate routine.  If you see no improvement at all within a few days, then the routine is wrong, consistency is an issue, or there is another issue like pain.  If your gut is saying PUPD, then go with that   But I guess all I'm saying is don't see it as an 'easier' option than shh pat or entirely separate from it as I don't think I'd be being fair or honest to you if I suggested it was.  This link is really helpful if you haven't seen it: How to PU/PD (inc age adaptations) and I think should answer some of your questions.

In terms of time limits, I believe Tracy said to try 45 mins max for a nap before getting LO up, do some low-key A time to give you both a break and then try again.  Expect LO to have very short naps or even skip them altogether for the first day or so - but at some point (all else being ok) the tiredness usually starts to work in your favour x 

[Gummi_bear63]

I can't be sure nothing else is wrong. I don't think he has enough signs of reflux but I'm not sure I guess. I thought it was teething and tried meds but that didn't help enough to make me think that was it. I tried supplementing with bottles because I thought maybe he was hungry because he didn't seem to be eating very long no matter what I tried and I have had milk supply issues. That didn't help either. He's gassy but always has been. I may try a visit to the doctor but I doubt he will be helpful.

I don't have proper logs. Will try for one today. I would start the day logging and then it would fall apart sometime in the day. But I did follow your suggested schedule as best as I could. Never put him down to soon, but always seemed to get short naps still. And I do hold him the whole nap. Try to keep him asleep when he stirs at 30 minutes but rarely successful with that.

Still haven't decided what to do, but for pu/pd, do I pat and shush to calm but stop before he falls asleep?