Author Topic: Pu/pd questions  (Read 3872 times)

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Offline Gummi_bear63

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Pu/pd questions
« on: September 02, 2016, 13:11:40 pm »
I am a 4 month old who is an awful sleeper. My fault I'm sure but I need to fix it before I go nuts. I like the middle of the road nature of pu/pd and have read about it like crazy. What my question is, I suppose, is what exactly will happen when my baby eventually falls asleep. I can't imagine how he will go from crying to eventually not crying enough to stay down. Or I suppose he will get to the mantra cry and I leave him?  I just can't imagine how it will end. Does anyone have any experience and can tell me how it happened for them?  Also how long it took you?  I'm so nervous about how long it will carry on.

My other question is-will it likely fix all my sleep issues?  How successful did you find it? Current ones being a wake up 30 minutes after being put down each night, an inability to be settled and even rocked to sleep some nights, and a complete inability to nap anywhere but my arms?  Last night I couldn't get him to sleep at all and got so desperate he slept in the swing from 4:30am on. Need to go something soon.

Also-I'm thinking of getting my husband to do it first-both for the physical and emotional toll it will take on me. However he's never put my son to sleep. Has anyone tried this and had success?  Almost wondering if it would be better because he has no sleep associations with him.

Thanks!  Looking forward to answers!

Offline jessmum46

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Re: Pu/pd questions
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2016, 12:53:11 pm »
Hi, and welcome :)

What my question is, I suppose, is what exactly will happen when my baby eventually falls asleep. I can't imagine how he will go from crying to eventually not crying enough to stay down. Or I suppose he will get to the mantra cry and I leave him?
I think this can vary.  To be honest it is not unusual sometimes in the early stages for LOs just to get so tired out by the process of protesting that they just can't manage to stay awake any more and may even sleep mid-cry.  Some may become calmer and start mantra crying, in which case it is fine to step back a bit, though given your LO has never gone to sleep alone before I would reassure and settle in the crib using shh pat.  As much as people think of them as separate things, shh pat and PUPD are really (in my view) part of a continuum - at this young age I would be trying shh pat first really and using PUPD as more of a last resort.  Gentler on you both :)

I think prepare yourself for 2 really tough days, then it should get easier.  There is often a 'regression' around day 5, but not always, but I would say consistency for a week should make a big difference. 

However - before you start could you post your routine for us?  Any sort of sleep training will only be effective when paired with the right kind of routine, so LO is tired enough to sleep and not overtired.  The other thing to consider is whether other other factors could be making it hard for your LO to sleep - pain is a big one, particularly if LO has reflux or similar.  No sleep training will be able to sort out those problems unfortunately so if pain or discomfort could be a factor I would check with your doctor before starting any sleep training.

It's fine for either you or your DH to do it - whoever you feel is likely to be most consistent really and less likely to 'give up' because it is hard work.  You can even tag team - so you do one nap, DH does the next - just I would avoid swapping partway through.

Hope that is some help :)


Offline Gummi_bear63

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Desperate! Re: Pu/pd questions
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2016, 22:13:02 pm »
Thanks for the response.  It was helpful but made me realize I have lot's of other questions now!

Basically, my baby doesn't have a routine right now.  I read every book I was given before having my son desperately trying to answer the question "What do I do with my baby all day?" looking for a routine and I couldn't find anything, just they "do anything the first three months" approach. Didn't get this book until my baby was a bit older.  Anyway, I was thinking of trying the 4 month plus, never had a routine route in the book, which implied that I go right to PU/PD from nap on day 1 to get baby into EASY, but maybe I misunderstood. I'm not crazy about going to pu/pd right away I just thought that was the suggested approach.  I know I have lot's of accidental parenting to undo.

Basically my problems are:

-baby will not nap more than 30 minutes, and this must be in my arms. If it put him down he wakes up within 5 minutes and there is no getting him back
-extremely difficult to get him to sleep these days, even with all sorts of accidental parenting rocking, patting, shushing, bouncing, etc
-he was starting to sleep longer stretches, and then suddenly in the last week (sleep regression??) I can't even get him to sleep enough to put down at night.  I I spend hours each night trying to get him back to sleep and have been co-sleeping out of utter desperation the last two nights because every time I put him down he wakes up shortly after and I have to start all over
-I know he is extremely over tired as a result but am at a loss to get him to sleep more

Questions are:
-should I continue to hold him to sleep for naps for awhile to get him sleeping longer in the day, or try and do something to fix this as well as nights?
-how do I get him on an EASY if I can't get him to nap more than 30 minutes? 
-what do I do when my baby wakes after 5 minutes and he's wide awake? start the pat and shush again from scratch until the time is up?
-how is pat and shush going to help him sleep on his own-is the idea to gradually take stuff away?  I've never been clear about this
-how does baby get onto his back if I prop him on side for pat and shush?  Move him when he's asleep-that terrifies me!!!

I know that's a lot but I'm very desperate and really need some advise! 


Offline jessmum46

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Re: Pu/pd questions
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2016, 18:59:47 pm »
I was thinking of trying the 4 month plus, never had a routine route in the book, which implied that I go right to PU/PD from nap on day 1 to get baby into EASY, but maybe I misunderstood.
You didn't misunderstand :)  Tracy did recommend going for a really strict 4h EASY routine with PUPD to get something established for a LO that has never had any type of routine.  I think probably the collective 'wisdom' of those of us who spend time here would suggest this is a super tough way to do it, and it may be a little more gentle to just observe your LO for 2 days, recording all sleep cues/times/lengths etc and then post here so we can help you with a plan.  Often huge improvements can be made just by making some simple routine suggestions such as not keeping LO awake so long (overtiredness tends to be a big problem with many LOs).  If you fancy keeping a diary for the next 48h then post it here I'm happy to see what I can suggest for you :)

Questions are:
-should I continue to hold him to sleep for naps for awhile to get him sleeping longer in the day, or try and do something to fix this as well as nights?
-how do I get him on an EASY if I can't get him to nap more than 30 minutes? 
-what do I do when my baby wakes after 5 minutes and he's wide awake? start the pat and shush again from scratch until the time is up?
-how is pat and shush going to help him sleep on his own-is the idea to gradually take stuff away?  I've never been clear about this
-how does baby get onto his back if I prop him on side for pat and shush?  Move him when he's asleep-that terrifies me!!!
Will try to answer all of these!  Yell if I miss anything ;)

Given he isn't napping that well anyway, I'd go straight to shh pat/PUPD (your choice) for all naps and nights.  The more chances he gets to practice, the quicker he will 'get it'.

30 min naps are very common with overtired babies.  Most babies once the routine is a bit more sorted are actually very capable of sleeping longer :)  Which is why we suggest to observe for a couple of days first and it may become more obvious what might help.  That said, EASY is not meant to be a schedule so even for true short-napping babies it is possible to come up with a flexible routine that suits you all.

If he wakes after 5 mins of a nap that suggests to me he never really got past the first light stage of sleep, and certainly isn't rested.  I would be thinking about how you might help him through that phase to avoid it altogether.  If you are using shh pat, in the first instance you would be shh  patting all the way until he is in a deep sleep (20 mins or so) so hopefully you would avoid that early jolt awake anyway :)  I think your comment about 'until time is up' relates to Tracy's quite intense schedule for starting at 4 months - as I said above it is perfectly ok to do it that way, but honestly I think if you were planning for a 2h nap as per schedule, and he wakes after 5 mins, that's a totally miserable 1h55 mins remaining trying to resettle!!  As a general rule with resettling I would say spend a few mins only, you'll get a sense quickly (max 10-15 mins) if it's going to happen or not.  Personally, I feel life is too short to spend all day resettling and would instead just get up, move on with the day and move the next nap early if needed.

Shh pat is a tool to teach LO to settle in bed.  As he grows more comfortable, you gradually shh and pat less, e.g. lighter/slower pat, fade out the shh, do it for less time so that he does more of the falling asleep himself.  So yes, gradually take it away :)

Re propping on his side - not strictly necessary.  You don't have to do it 'by the book'.  We all know advice is for babies to sleep on their backs so I would adapt it for that position.  With DD I sat beside her an patted the opposite hip with my hand across her nappy area.  DS didn't like shh pat really so I stroked his head or just rested a hand on his tummy with a gentle shh sound.

Hope that helps you a bit more - really it's a case of just trying it and seeing what happens.  You can't plan for every eventuality but we will be here to cheer you on xx

Offline Gummi_bear63

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Re: Pu/pd questions
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2016, 22:46:52 pm »
Thanks for the help so far!  I'm getting pretty desperate. Worst part is he just started to get longer stretches of sleep at night for a couple of days after being a terrible sleeper since birth before becoming worse than a newborn :( It's making me a bit crazy to fix this!  His naps have always sucked and I know he's crazy overtired, but I can never seem to get him to nap longer. I hold him for naps so at least he sleeps what he does.

I will record our day for the next 2 days and post for advise. Thanks for the offer. Hopefully you will have some insight.

Offline jessmum46

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Re: Pu/pd questions
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2016, 07:58:11 am »
Will look forward to your post x

Offline Gummi_bear63

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Re: Pu/pd questions
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2016, 16:05:58 pm »
I know I was going to record 2 days but today has kind of gone to heck because last night was so bad and my mom came over so I could sleep a bit so I have no ideas what has gone on.  Since I'm so desperate I will post about yesterday in hopes that this will be enough. 

*unless otherwise stated, it took rocking/bouncing, patting, and shushing in arms for at least 15 minutes.  Usually random patting and shushing to keep him asleep as long as he is.  He always fights sleep and literally wiggles and pushes away from me when trying to settle him.  This was a pretty good nap day for us!

7:45 Wake
*Send of with husband after desperate night*
9:15 Hubby feeds small bottle
9:30 Asleep(one quick eye rub and asleep quickly in my arms).  In my dark bedroom with sound machine.
9:55 Almost woke up!  Successfully kept him asleep
10:46 Awake(this is an amazing nap for us!).  Feed as previous feed was small.
12:00 First Eye Rub
12:26 Finally Asleep.  Very Grouchy.  May have tried a bit late....my fault!
1:10 Awake
1:45 Feed. Eye rub while feeding(usually only rubs eyes while feeding...hard for me to tell he is sleepy.  I usually go based on grouchiness)
1:55 Tried to get to sleep.  Particularly difficult meltdown. 
2:10 Asleep but very restless
3:05 Woke
4:30 Feed.  Rubbing eyes.
5:00 Sleep.  Lot's of eye rubbing while I tried to put down.
5:35 Wake
6:00 Fed(fussy...rubbing eyes furiously already..perhaps should have skipped bath but he was overdue for one-we don't do everynight...not sure if this would help him or not)
6:20 Bath
6:35 Feed and Story
7:00 Try to get asleep.  Finally down in crib at 7:40(better than it has been...)
8:35 First Wake Up....a miracle!  Hasn't slept past 30 mins after first put down in forever!  Feeling hopeful!!
Some time around 9:30.....lost all hope.  Held in my arms while hubby and I finish watching TV.  As has been happening lately, I could get him to sleep but he constantly squirms and won't settle.  Moves the second I stop one of patting/rocking/shushing he squirms and starts waking.  Dared trying to put him down when he seemed settled at 10:30....dire mistake.  Was awake on couch until 3:30am with baby that squirmed every time I stopped patting.  Smartened up and used shush from youtube...haha.  Eventually around that time he let me stop patting him(I would fall asleep and stop patting and he'd stir...this is last time I saw clock).  Woke a couple times before my mom got here at 8 and gave me a break(thank goodness!)

Not sure if that helps.  Clearly no schedule.  Not sure if I should do an EAS schedule when his naps are so short or some variation of that while I get them longer?? 

Also about pat shush-wondering if I should ease into it by putting him down in bed when he has first gone to sleep and sure to stir and pat/shush from there.  And when he's got that down put him in more and more awake?  Or dive in and put him down awake? 

I was perhaps patting 10 mins after asleep as I thought was correct.  Will try 20 next time.  He has a tendency to pop wide awake after many minutes of pat/shush and having to restart as it is. 

Any advise you can give will be greatly appreciated.  Things are so awful I think I have the strength now to do whatever it takes!!

Btw-does his behaviour sound like a normal 4 month sleep regression??  It seems too awful to be that but I can't seem to figure out if anything else is wrong.  Thought about teething but not sure as there is no sign of teeth yet, however he is grouchy during the day, but this could be lack of sleep!  Drools and bites things...but they always do that!  Who knows..


Offline Gummi_bear63

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Re: Pu/pd questions
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2016, 16:53:08 pm »
Oh and not sure if I mentioned but all naps are in my arms.  Can't seem to put him down for naps no Matter how long I wait. At this point don't want to risk it...crying and freaking out to nap today!  Quite a production to get him asleep. Perhaps because grandma let him get overtired this morning, more so than usual.

Offline jessmum46

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Re: Pu/pd questions
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2016, 16:56:02 pm »
Hugs, it's so exhausting when they don't sleep well isn't it?  Ok, from the day you posted I think there are somethings that might help :)

First A time was 1h45.  He wasn't hard to settle and you got a pretty good nap out of it - not quite the 'full' 1h30 that would be an ideal world kind of nap, but I'd take it!!  This tells me that this was close to the right awake time for him, possibly a bit on the short side but some babies do prefer their first awake time to be a little shorter.  I would aim for this consistently for the next few days - first nap about 1h45 after waking for the day.

The next thing I noticed was that although you thought you tried too late for the second nap, I actually think you tried too early :)  You started at only 1h15 or so A time, that is super short for a 4 month old, especially after a good nap.  I know he was eye rubbing but that might have actually been a 'rested' eye rub, boredom or just a random eye rub.  They aren't the most reliable signs all the time - yes important to note them but also to keep an eye on the clock to know what is 'reasonable'.  2h is pretty standard/typical A time at 4 months so anything significantly before that I would tend to ignore or try a change of scene first.  When he did eventually sleep at 1h40 A time, you got a 45 min nap - these can occur due to lots of reasons but UT is certainly one of them and that's what I'd probably put my money on this time.

I think what happened then is that short nap set you up for a bad afternoon of him being tired from a short nap, but then trying too soon again for naps, so the short nap cycle continued and he ended up very OT at bedtime.  (((Hugs))), that was a very rough night though for just OT....it could well be teeth/illness brewing I guess, both mine had teeth at 4 months. 

Anyway, assuming for now it is *just* routine, my suggestion for the next couple of days, even if you decide to go for naps in your arms for now just to try it, is to aim for 1h45 first A time, and 2h the rest of the day.  If you get a short nap then shorten the next A time slightly, but I really wouldn't go much less than 1h30 as a minimum even after a short nap. 

So let's say an 'ideal' day could look like:

WU 7.45
Nap 9.30-11 (let's be optimistic!)
Nap 1-2.30/3
Nap 4.30/5-5.45/6
BT 7.45ish

Or say it goes a bit wonky:

WU 7.45
Nap 9.30-10.15
Nap 12-12.45
Nap 2.30-3.15
Nap 4.45/5-5.30/6
BT 7.15/45

What do you think?

Offline jessmum46

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Re: Pu/pd questions
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2016, 16:57:11 pm »
Oh with shh pat - fine to start out in your arms for now and then transition to putting down more awake x

Offline Gummi_bear63

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Re: Pu/pd questions
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2016, 18:35:21 pm »
Thanks for the advise. I will give it a try!  I have thought he was not awake enough but he always seems tired so soon. I will give it a try though as his tired signs have been less clear lately so this very well could be the problem. I think I will try in my arms for a couple days and then tackle the pat-shush in bed if it's starting to look promising. Thanks again for the advise. I'll let you know how it goes!!


Offline jessmum46

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Re: Pu/pd questions
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2016, 16:41:57 pm »
Hoping you've had a nice day today :)

Offline Gummi_bear63

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Re: Pu/pd questions
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2016, 23:17:02 pm »
My efforts to get my little one to nap longer in my arms as a first step, using your suggested schedule, isn't going well at all.  I need to pat and shush him to keep him asleep even 30 minutes and I can still not get him to sleep much more than that most times no matter what I do(with the exception of one crazy long nap one day...perhaps too long).  I am getting to the end of my rope.  I just spent an hour getting him down into bed because I wait 20 minutes after he falls asleep and then he stirs just when I'm going to put him down.  And for all that, I know he will be up within 30 minutes and I'll do it all again to maybe get him to sleep another 30 minutes, maybe even less. 

I am not sure if I can go the pat-shush route, as I have let it go to long and now I can't imagine spending the months I think the pat-shush requires to improve his sleep issues.  I dread every nap and bedtime so much that it ruins my whole day some days.  He fights it so much and sometimes I think he'd be better in his crib because he's always trying to squirm and turn in my arms.  Most naps involve him freaking out and crying in my arms anyway.  I think I need to resort to the pu/pd now as I think this will take weeks rather than months, hopefully?

Am I correct?  Will pat-shush take months?  If I do pu/pd, I have some more questions.  You originally related it to pat-shush.  My question is, if I pat/shush to help sooth him in the crib while doing pu/pd, do I stop before he falls asleep because then I'm putting him to sleep??  Or can I do this if he will allow after the calming down enough to let me do this?  I'm confused about this part.  I'm quite scared about going through all this trauma and then having him wake up after 5 minutes-which is something he is likely to do.  I have tried the pat-shush in the past, and I would often think he was asleep and would be patting for 10 minutes and without me stopping he would shoot his eyes open and I'll have to start all over again calming him and getting him asleep.  Do I leave him to fuss for awhile and then begin pu/pd again when he cries?  Also, is there a time limit on this for naps? 


Offline jessmum46

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Re: Pu/pd questions
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2016, 13:14:18 pm »
Oh hugs :(  You sound so very stressed out by it all - wish I could come give you a little break for a while :-*

Before I suggest anything more, can I just be certain there is nothing that could be causing him any discomfort right now - nothing like reflux or tummy troubles?  It just makes me wonder as he isn't really even sleeping well in your arms (would he sleep longer if you held him for the whole nap?) and most LOs who have 'just' prop issues will at least sleep reasonably ok somewhere.  No sleep training will work with a LO in pain :(  You know him best though - if you are happy this is just habit and nothing else then read on :)

Did you log what happened the last few days in terms of sleep timings?  Would help to see it if so, but don't worry if not :)

I guess with PUPD and shh pat it to some extent has to be what you are happy/comfortable with doing.  Neither is 'better' than the other really, and I wouldn't expect either to take weeks/months with consistency and an appropriate routine.  If you see no improvement at all within a few days, then the routine is wrong, consistency is an issue, or there is another issue like pain.  If your gut is saying PUPD, then go with that :)  But I guess all I'm saying is don't see it as an 'easier' option than shh pat or entirely separate from it as I don't think I'd be being fair or honest to you if I suggested it was.  This link is really helpful if you haven't seen it: How to PU/PD (inc age adaptations) and I think should answer some of your questions.

In terms of time limits, I believe Tracy said to try 45 mins max for a nap before getting LO up, do some low-key A time to give you both a break and then try again.  Expect LO to have very short naps or even skip them altogether for the first day or so - but at some point (all else being ok) the tiredness usually starts to work in your favour x 

Offline Gummi_bear63

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Re: Pu/pd questions
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2016, 13:33:23 pm »
I can't be sure nothing else is wrong. I don't think he has enough signs of reflux but I'm not sure I guess. I thought it was teething and tried meds but that didn't help enough to make me think that was it. I tried supplementing with bottles because I thought maybe he was hungry because he didn't seem to be eating very long no matter what I tried and I have had milk supply issues. That didn't help either. He's gassy but always has been. I may try a visit to the doctor but I doubt he will be helpful.

I don't have proper logs. Will try for one today. I would start the day logging and then it would fall apart sometime in the day. But I did follow your suggested schedule as best as I could. Never put him down to soon, but always seemed to get short naps still. And I do hold him the whole nap. Try to keep him asleep when he stirs at 30 minutes but rarely successful with that.

Still haven't decided what to do, but for pu/pd, do I pat and shush to calm but stop before he falls asleep?

Offline Gummi_bear63

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Re: Pu/pd questions
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2016, 14:28:34 pm »
Quick update:  decided to try shush pat for nap. Unfortunately he fell asleep feeding(a new problem...) but I popped him in crib knowing he would stir if I did nothing and shush patted. Did for 15 minutes and then his eyes shot open and hands started flailing. Tried to shush pat and hold arms for 10 minutes but couldn't block out visual stimuli(impossible anyway because he turns head and tries to grab my hands). He was awake as ever when I stopped. Is this because I started with him asleep or just what will happen?  Will this stop happening if I'm consistent?? Now he's slept 15 minutes only :(

Offline Skadiver13

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Re: Pu/pd questions
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2016, 15:25:00 pm »
Hello, with out going back through all the old posts I might re-ask a few questions.. If I remember correctly PU/PD is really a last resort for sleep training and at 4 months he just might not be ready. I think getting through a possible 4 month sleep regression might be a better game plan and to make sure your Routine is good, because an severely OT or UT baby isn't going to react well to PU/PD. And some babies just don't like it ever. My Lo when we did it at 6 months hated it and it made things worse, so we ended up using the gradual withdrawal/shush/pat methods combined. Can you post your EASY the past few days?
My dreamed for Angel Baby DD (other than dreaded 40min naps) Born 4/30/16
Reflux, MSPI, Love my Spirited,textbook little munchkin DS Born 5/17/2012



**Siobhan**

Offline Gummi_bear63

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Re: Pu/pd questions
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2016, 01:22:31 am »
I'm not even sure if this is the sleep regression-that was one of my questions. Does it sound like that to you? I understand that my baby is overtired but despite everything I do I can't get him to sleep better during the day, which is what this thread is mainly about. If you have any suggestions about how to get him to sleep longer I'm all ears but I've tried adjusting his awake time as suggested and this doesn't seem to be helping. He won't sleep in his swing, stroller, car seat, and of course not his crib. Only my arms and never more than 30 minutes, except once and a while with extreme effort to keep him past the half hour mark and usually it won't work. I'm getting incredibly desperate to try anything that may work as I basically have to hold my baby 24/7 now.

I don't understand how to make the pat shush work as my baby seems to pop awake all the time and I can't get him to get asleep this week or stay asleep.  The pat shush doesn't seem to make him drowsy but if I pick him up he's suddenly sleepy.

Offline jessmum46

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Re: Pu/pd questions
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2016, 12:19:25 pm »
He's gassy but always has been.
Given just how unsettled he is I really think this is something worth exploring further.  Babies who are 'just' tired tend to crash out eventually you know?  In the meantime, have you tried a sling or similar just to have hands free for a bit?  ((Hugs)) I will be back later - just have to collect DD from school x

Offline Gummi_bear63

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Re: Pu/pd questions
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2016, 16:45:45 pm »
Any advice on how to make the Shush pat work? I've read everything I can find but I can't seem to make it work even once.   My baby consistently pops his eyes open even when I am still patting and shushing and doesn't seem to want to sleep. But if you pick him up he's sleepy and often tries to sleep on me. I know it won't work if I'm not consistent but it's hard to persistent for a hugely long time with it when it doesn't seem to be working. Another issue is I know he needs me to block visual sinuous but I can't do that, pat, and hold his arms he insists on beating himself with. Advise? He was swaddled until 3 months but he started to get out no matter what I did creating loose blankets/danger and he was showing signs of rolling over in the crib(has since done this once).

I was thinking maybe I needed to do some sort of gradual withdrawal first as he has a lot of props but I can't seem to figure this out because if I try and pull back anything he won't go to sleep. I even try and stop rocking too soon after he seems asleep and he stirs.

Also-don't have a specific day to write out but I have tried to follow the advise on timing and it seems to make no difference. Yesterday 2 of his naps are now as short as 20 minutes and I can't get him to go back no matter what I do.

As for the sling, mine is hard to get on myself so not super practical, plus I need to pat and shush him in carrier to make him sleep and this often doesn't work well anyway. I'll keep trying but it's also hard on my back. My little guy is no so little! 

Offline jessmum46

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Re: Pu/pd questions
« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2016, 12:59:13 pm »
For blocking visual stimulus why not just blackout the room?  My kids have slept in the dark always, naps and nights and I think it does help for distracted babies :)

Is there any way that reliably works for getting him to sleep?  That may be where we need to start.

Have you considered discomfort being a possibility as I suggested?  You didn't comment on it in your last post.

Offline Gummi_bear63

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Re: Pu/pd questions
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2016, 00:23:52 am »
I am planning to take him to the doctor to rule out discomfort but I really don't think he has any other symptoms of anything that would cause him discomfort and I doubt the doctor will be helpful. But I am going to see what he says.

Running on that assumption, I've tried the shush pat a few times and gotten frustrated and quit. I know nothing will work unless I stick with it but it seems pointless. He's sleepy in my arms but then when I put him down he's hitting himself and kicking like crazy. This is not conductive to sleep. I try picking him up and he's obviously tired because he burrows into me and tries to sleep. I try and try but keep getting the same result. I have never been able to get him to sleep in his crib with this method. He seems immediately wide awake and shows know signs up sleep. Once I tried it he started to cry and it began to feel like pick up put down once that happened. I tried putting him down just asleep knowing he would usually wake in seconds and did pat shush for 20 minutes. He woke after 7 minutes of me stopping. I just don't understand how to make this work.

I get him to sleep by rocking him, patting, and shushing. If he's really fussy we have to bounce on an exercise ball. He's always loved that. I tried to stop the rocking and he lets me for the first nap of the day(always the easiest) but I've not had luck eliminating it from other naps later in the day.

I am often getting a better first nap(1.5-2h in my arms) about 1h 45m after his first wake up(only with pat/shush/bounce support when he stirs-sometimes for whole nap) but when I try for another nap 1h45m-2h later I can't get him past 30 minutes. No amount of rocking or anything will seem to get him past this.

I've been trying the last few days to put him down for a nap but he immediately wakes no matter how long I wait, just like I have trouble with at night.

Feeling rather hopeless. Something needs to be fixed soon. I will post if doctors visit reveals anything but I doubt he will be helpful. He's sleeping in my bed with me now which is dangerous and something I never wanted to do but it's that or never sleep at all. And he wakes every hour so it's not great at that.

Any suggestions would be appreciated. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong with the shush pat.


Offline Gummi_bear63

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Re: Pu/pd questions
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2016, 00:47:12 am »
Oh and also relevant. His new favourite trick is rolling into his tummy and getting stuck. Something he especially likes to do in bed. Makes pat shush tough.

Offline jessmum46

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Re: Pu/pd questions
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2016, 19:04:16 pm »
Hun I don't think you are doing anything wrong :-* some babies really do just struggle to sleep.  See what your doctor says, often unsettled sleeping can be a symptom of silent reflux - there's a checklist here if you want to have a read through: Reflux 101 - General reflux information

If medical issues are ruled out, really it is a case of sticking with it and accepting there will be missed naps and over tiredness in the first day or two.  What we usually suggest is to try for max 45 mins, then take a break, and try again.  If you just put him in his crib and don't pat/shh does he get upset?  Or just lie there?

Offline Gummi_bear63

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Re: Pu/pd questions
« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2016, 17:56:06 pm »
If I don't do anything he usually lies there for awhile and then eventually fusses. If I ignore his fussiness he eventually cries. Now that he rolls though, I imagine he would roll over immediately and fuss for me to pick him up.

I've been trying since yesterday to pat and shush for naps and it's a disaster for me(I had to abandon at bedtime and night wake ups out of utter frustration). I have to put him down basically asleep but so he will stir and even then he stirs pretty much as soon as I stop. Once today I got him to sleep 15 minutes after I left. But then back to stirring as soon as I stop. I really don't think that is discomfort, as why would he be fine when I am patting him and then not fine when I stop? I'm finding this frustrating not to mention painful to hunch over his crib. Will this actually start to work?? 

Offline Gummi_bear63

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Re: Pu/pd questions
« Reply #25 on: September 23, 2016, 15:07:42 pm »
Any one have any ideas??  I'm on my third day of shush pat for naps and it is a disaster! 

My son only sleeps as long as I pat him so he is a disastrous mess by the end of the day and I end up having to resort to the old ways at bedtime which now takes twice as long as it already did and I'm more miserable than when I started.  I have to put him down asleep but so he will stir.  If he stirs too much, he is wide awake and flailing his arms around(often grabbing my hands), kicking his legs, and it's basically impossible to pat him.  I don't know how I am supposed to but him down awake.  He's just way to active, as mentioned above, and I don't know how this will ever lead to sleep.   I haven't done 45 minutes of this with him wide awake I will admit, as I get frustrated after about 10 minutes of him flailing, hitting me, and trying to roll.  It seems utterly impossible. 

This morning my baby has now only had a 9 minute nap so far.  My mother tried yesterday to give me a break but he just screams bloody murder when she tries and it's not me so I get no break.  I am really losing faith this will ever work.  Can anyone give me any ideas about what I should do differently?

Offline jessmum46

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Re: Pu/pd questions
« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2016, 12:00:15 pm »
Hugs hun, I know this is hard :-*  Really I would suggest taking a bit of a break for a day or two, it sounds you are getting quite frustrated with it which is meaning you are struggling to stay consistent, which is just counter-productive for both of you.  Why not do a day or two of snuggly naps to catch up, and then start afresh?  It's much easier to be consistent and not give up after 10 mins when you are a bit more rested, and consistency really is key.  It's not unusual for the first nap to be skipped, the next to take the full 45 mins, but most people find they see huge progress very quickly after that.  If you can resolve to see it through the first few times, hopefully you'll get the breakthrough you need :)

Remind us how old he is now, and what routine you are trying?  I think about 5 months?  It may be his sleep needs have moved on and as well as thinking about sleep training, the routine plan also needs to be tweaked a bit.  There are often some big jumps in A time around now so do tell us what you've been aiming for :)

I'm wondering if you need to be more hands off, actually, and do more of a PUPD as it seems the patting is winding him up.  Trying to pat him while he is just wiggling about isn't going to work yk?  This is copied from the PUPD FAQs:

To sum it up the basic procedure when you child cries is;

•   Place your hand on their back or chest and say your key phrase in a low tone, eg. ‘it’s only sleep’ or ‘it’s sleepy time’.  You always try in the crib first as this is the ultimate goal.
•   If this doesn’t work you pick them up, say the phrase and as soon as they calm you put them down.  If they start to cry on the way down, you still put them down. 
•   If they are still crying you pick them up again. 
•   If the child is truly fighting you, arching etc you don’t hold at all, you put them right down after you say the phrase and then pick them up again. 
•   You do this over and over until you see signs your baby is settling.  Typically their cries will become weaker; they may look for their hands etc.  They may also begin to mantra cry, you do not pick up on a mantra cry as they are attempting to settle themselves. 
•   When you see this settling behaviour you don’t pick them up anymore.  Leave them in the crib, place your hand on them and say your phrase. Now you let go, stand back and see what happens. 
•   If they start up again, you start the whole process over beginning with attempting to soothe in the crib.

4-6 MONTHS OLD -  The process changes slightly when your baby is starting to get more mobile and has more strength.  They will typically start to fight you when being held and they may throw their head back and/or arch their back, so the following adaptations are made;

•   If the baby is burrowing their head into the mattress, turning their head side to side, getting up on their knees or flopping side to side you don’t pick them up right away or you will get kicked or your hair pulled.  Instead you continue to talk and soothe in a low tone voice.
•   When you do pick your baby up you only hold for a maximum of two or three minutes then put them all the way down even if still crying. You then pick up again and follow the same routine. 
•   At 4-6 months a baby tends to put up quite a physical struggle and the biggest mistake made is holding too long.  Watch your baby’s cues, burrowing into your shoulder or arching their back is a sign they want to go back down EVEN if they are still crying.  Holding them too long will reinforce “I cry I get picked up”.   You can label what you are doing eg. “Let me pick you up”.  “Let me put you down”. 

So in essence you are hands off, 'letting' him go to sleep rather than 'putting' him to sleep.  Does that make sense?

Offline ireneasheard

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Re: Pu/pd questions
« Reply #27 on: September 26, 2016, 12:14:26 pm »
At 4 months old I was still patting my son to sleep. My understanding is that full pu/pd can be quite disturbing and over stimulating for a baby that young. As hr is now almost 6 months old I've transitioned to pu/pd as indicated in the pu/pd information relevant to age, he now doesn't respond to patting. I can tell you I've done pu/pd and have taken 30 minutes but he settles. My baby has been on a routine from very early on though but definitely leaps and development and teeth and starting solids all plays a role in how well baby sleeps in the first place. Don't give up... pu/pd I was doubtful would work but it does work! Persistence and fixing any routine issues if needed and making yoir observations is so important if you are looking for a way forward. Good luck.
DS 1: Textbook baby, February 2012. Kind and loving big brother to...
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Offline Gummi_bear63

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Re: Pu/pd questions
« Reply #28 on: September 27, 2016, 21:14:34 pm »
I did end up taking a break from nap training and have just been holding him again. I was going crazy!  And I came to the same conclusion that maybe the pat shush wasn't for us. I tried pu/pd for bedtime but found it didn't quite work for him so I altered it slightly so I was there to comfort him and not leave him to cry but didn't pick him up as I found this disturbed him trying to settle. Altered it to include cuddles where he was rather than picking up. First night was awful but I kept going because I didn't want him to have been upset for nothing. And it's paying off. First couple days needed my hand on his chest to be calm enough to sleep. Last night he cried a little but required much less comfort and turned on his side and sucked he a thumb to sleep!  And he woke several times but put himself back to sleep without any intervention because I trusted the process and gave him a little time as he was really only fussying and not crying. This is amazing as he was waking every 40 minutes or less a few days ago!  I'm so glad I did this. I hated to have him cry even if I was there to constantly comfort him but it's what he needed I think.

However I didn't tackle naps because I didn't want him crying too much in a day. Not sure if anything he learned will transfer over but hoping it will go easier. Hope I didn't screw anything up by not doing them together.

As for the likely regression around day 5, is it just he will have more trouble getting to sleep again or will he have trouble all night with waking a lot?  What is typical?

As for routine, he is 5 months just yesterday. We were trying for 1:45-2h activity. This works for first nap most days now being longer(but still in my arms!) but as we go through day with same times he often has 30 minute ones again. And I still sometimes shorten A slightly if he seems really desperate although I try and stick with it. I know his A times should maybe be increasing but I'm not always sure how to tell, especially since his naps are so screwed up already. Today I took him for first nap and he was down a couple minutes before 2h and slept in my arms for 1h 40m!  So this seemed like a good time. Did 2h10m midday (was out-delayed nap) and this was a 30 minute one. Now he's napping on me again for going on an hour(still sleeping) and that was couple minutes shy of 2 hours again. So I'm thinking this is still the right timing?  My only indication of his sleepiness some times is fussiness so I could be misinterpreting it...

Should I aim for 2h and do my version of pu/pd for naps?  If so, should I aim to have him in crib exactly at 2h or go a bit earlier knowing he won't get down right away?  If he doesn't take the first nap, how short should the A time be after that?   If I get him settling on his own and hopefully taking decent naps, then I will hopefully fall into a more consistent easy? Hopefully before his A time needs change so I have some indication by how he naps. They typically get up to 2.5 hours over the course of this month?




Offline ireneasheard

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Re: Pu/pd questions
« Reply #29 on: September 28, 2016, 15:04:38 pm »
You should do what works for you and your baby. You are doing a great job, keep reading your child's cues. If anything the baby whisperer is all about reading child and following their lead and the schedules and suggested awake times are guidance only. If your adjustment to pu/pd is working for you and you are settling babe in cot then go ahead and do it! The aim is to settle baby eventually in cot without lifting them out anyway - in fact aim is that they eventually learn to settle themselves - so if what you are doing is working and sleep is coming then I say keep doing it.
Re day sleeps - if you are getting the sleeps happening in arms then if possible work towards getting babe to sleep in bed as you have done overnight. 5 months old is a good time to work on one sleep if you can.
Re A time - again following your child is so important. My boy is almost 6 months old and low sleep needs so he was already transitioning 3-2 at end of 4 months. Incrementing A time is a good way day by day to work out how much sleep your babe needs, our A times jumped quickly so it was easier for me to read my baby's tired cues and note A times day to day to work out if he was OT or UT.
Hope this all helps. Xx
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Offline Skadiver13

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Re: Pu/pd questions
« Reply #30 on: September 29, 2016, 00:56:56 am »
so I altered it slightly so I was there to comfort him and not leave him to cry but didn't pick him up as I found this disturbed him trying to settle

This is exactly what we did too.
Hope I didn't screw anything up by not doing them together.

No you didn't but once he goes to sleep consistently at night I would tackle naps.

Should I aim for 2h and do my version of pu/pd for naps? 
If he's going to sleep by himself at night then yes. Just read his cues the best you can. Maybt at 1hr30min turn off all tv's etc . Go upstairs start your wind-down low key etc give him time to relax.
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Offline Gummi_bear63

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Re: Pu/pd questions
« Reply #31 on: October 02, 2016, 23:57:05 pm »
I'm on day 9 of my pu\pd hybrid and we seem to have hit a wall. He had a regression around day 6 with it taking an hour to get to sleep and since then has been 40 minutes and doesn't seem to be getting better. Least it's ever taken was 30 really. I'm not sure how we will get to him going to sleep on his own.  It's getting pretty exhausting. It's worthwhile for nights-I haven't gone to him since day 2 in the night. If he does wake up he puts himself back to sleep. But getting to bed is pretty awful. Any idea what might help??  Could it be because he's still getting held for naps?

Offline jessmum46

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Re: Pu/pd questions
« Reply #32 on: October 03, 2016, 12:30:12 pm »
Please could you post the routine you are aiming for and/or a couple of days EAS with when you started trying for sleep and when he went off?  This suggests to me that he may need some routine tweaks, perhaps some longer awake times...


Offline Gummi_bear63

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Re: Pu/pd questions
« Reply #33 on: October 09, 2016, 15:06:16 pm »
I decided to go ahead with naps thinking this might be the problem.  It has been helping but still needs some work.  I'm also stepping out of the room more if he's not super upset but just fussing as I felt I was getting in his way.  If he gets upset I go back in.  I'm posting day 2 and 3 of nap training as well so maybe this is still too early in the process for timing advise but I thought I would see what you had to say.

7:37 awake

9:33 in crib.  Went to sleep 9:39(no intervention).  Woke 10:29.

12:44 in crib.  Went to sleep at 12:58(had to go in).  Woke 1:27

3:35 in crib.  Went to sleep at 3:49(had to go in)  Woke 4:24

6:24 in crib.  Asleep 6:27(miracle yet to be repeated!)

*Woke many times between now an 10.  Put himself back to sleep but constantly waking.  After 10pm didn't stir.  Wondering if he's hearing my husband and I?  We went to bed around then.

Woke 6:50.

9:04 in crib.  9:11 asleep(no intervention).  Woke 9:45  **was trying a slightly longer time here because I felt like I've been seeing no tired signs and thought maybe I was going to early....but nap length suggests this was wrong...

11:53 in bed.  12:13 asleep(had to go in).  Woke 12:42

In bed 2:42.  3:00 asleep(had to go in).  Woke 3:27

In bed 5:54(later than I intended due to a few issues  Perhaps the problem).  Seemed like he was putting himself right to sleep but after 4 minutes started to cry.  He kept almost falling asleep and then waking up.  Had to go in.  Didn't sleep until 6:27.  Worse night in a few days, since I've been doing naps. Woke every hour and usually put himself back to sleep for the next few hours.  Around 9:30 had to go in.  Quiet after 10 again until he woke at 5:30. 


Any thoughts?? I was trying to experiment with times a bit.  Just had a first nap where he fell asleep almost exactly 2 hours after waking(was acting tired so I put him in a bit early and he took him about 14 minutes to fall asleep, and then he only slept 19 minutes :(

Won't post the whole first day with naps because it sucked but for reference sake, the first nap was amazing(yet to be repeated)  Woke around 7:25.  In crib 9:20.  Fell asleep in 4.5m without intervention(9:25).  Woke 10:35.   



Offline jessmum46

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Re: Pu/pd questions
« Reply #34 on: October 10, 2016, 12:07:03 pm »
The first day you posted I'd say probably a bit UT for first nap (i.e. too short A time hence nap in the 50-80 mins range) which then set you up for an OT cycle, as he couldn't handle a full A time after that short first nap.  And therefore you got a lot of early evening NWs.  I don't think you were wrong to try a longer A time the second day, I'd have done the same I think.  But it may be you need to push even longer - I found sometimes if the A time was still a bit on the short side you'd get a short nap from (accumulated) OT but couldn't resettle as the actual A time on the day was short.  Does that kind of make sense?  Perhaps shoot for in the crib for first nap 2h after waking for a few days, and then if the nap is good (an hour or more) try around 2h15 for next A time, and maybe pull back slightly to 1h45 after a short nap?

All that said - I think you are doing brilliantly :D  It's rough changing habits (on both of you) but you are definitely making progress with it even if it doesn't feel like it x