Author Topic: Pu/pd questions  (Read 3930 times)

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Offline Gummi_bear63

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Re: Pu/pd questions
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2016, 14:28:34 pm »
Quick update:  decided to try shush pat for nap. Unfortunately he fell asleep feeding(a new problem...) but I popped him in crib knowing he would stir if I did nothing and shush patted. Did for 15 minutes and then his eyes shot open and hands started flailing. Tried to shush pat and hold arms for 10 minutes but couldn't block out visual stimuli(impossible anyway because he turns head and tries to grab my hands). He was awake as ever when I stopped. Is this because I started with him asleep or just what will happen?  Will this stop happening if I'm consistent?? Now he's slept 15 minutes only :(

Offline Skadiver13

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Re: Pu/pd questions
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2016, 15:25:00 pm »
Hello, with out going back through all the old posts I might re-ask a few questions.. If I remember correctly PU/PD is really a last resort for sleep training and at 4 months he just might not be ready. I think getting through a possible 4 month sleep regression might be a better game plan and to make sure your Routine is good, because an severely OT or UT baby isn't going to react well to PU/PD. And some babies just don't like it ever. My Lo when we did it at 6 months hated it and it made things worse, so we ended up using the gradual withdrawal/shush/pat methods combined. Can you post your EASY the past few days?
My dreamed for Angel Baby DD (other than dreaded 40min naps) Born 4/30/16
Reflux, MSPI, Love my Spirited,textbook little munchkin DS Born 5/17/2012



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Offline Gummi_bear63

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Re: Pu/pd questions
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2016, 01:22:31 am »
I'm not even sure if this is the sleep regression-that was one of my questions. Does it sound like that to you? I understand that my baby is overtired but despite everything I do I can't get him to sleep better during the day, which is what this thread is mainly about. If you have any suggestions about how to get him to sleep longer I'm all ears but I've tried adjusting his awake time as suggested and this doesn't seem to be helping. He won't sleep in his swing, stroller, car seat, and of course not his crib. Only my arms and never more than 30 minutes, except once and a while with extreme effort to keep him past the half hour mark and usually it won't work. I'm getting incredibly desperate to try anything that may work as I basically have to hold my baby 24/7 now.

I don't understand how to make the pat shush work as my baby seems to pop awake all the time and I can't get him to get asleep this week or stay asleep.  The pat shush doesn't seem to make him drowsy but if I pick him up he's suddenly sleepy.

Offline jessmum46

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Re: Pu/pd questions
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2016, 12:19:25 pm »
He's gassy but always has been.
Given just how unsettled he is I really think this is something worth exploring further.  Babies who are 'just' tired tend to crash out eventually you know?  In the meantime, have you tried a sling or similar just to have hands free for a bit?  ((Hugs)) I will be back later - just have to collect DD from school x

Offline Gummi_bear63

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Re: Pu/pd questions
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2016, 16:45:45 pm »
Any advice on how to make the Shush pat work? I've read everything I can find but I can't seem to make it work even once.   My baby consistently pops his eyes open even when I am still patting and shushing and doesn't seem to want to sleep. But if you pick him up he's sleepy and often tries to sleep on me. I know it won't work if I'm not consistent but it's hard to persistent for a hugely long time with it when it doesn't seem to be working. Another issue is I know he needs me to block visual sinuous but I can't do that, pat, and hold his arms he insists on beating himself with. Advise? He was swaddled until 3 months but he started to get out no matter what I did creating loose blankets/danger and he was showing signs of rolling over in the crib(has since done this once).

I was thinking maybe I needed to do some sort of gradual withdrawal first as he has a lot of props but I can't seem to figure this out because if I try and pull back anything he won't go to sleep. I even try and stop rocking too soon after he seems asleep and he stirs.

Also-don't have a specific day to write out but I have tried to follow the advise on timing and it seems to make no difference. Yesterday 2 of his naps are now as short as 20 minutes and I can't get him to go back no matter what I do.

As for the sling, mine is hard to get on myself so not super practical, plus I need to pat and shush him in carrier to make him sleep and this often doesn't work well anyway. I'll keep trying but it's also hard on my back. My little guy is no so little! 

Offline jessmum46

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Re: Pu/pd questions
« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2016, 12:59:13 pm »
For blocking visual stimulus why not just blackout the room?  My kids have slept in the dark always, naps and nights and I think it does help for distracted babies :)

Is there any way that reliably works for getting him to sleep?  That may be where we need to start.

Have you considered discomfort being a possibility as I suggested?  You didn't comment on it in your last post.

Offline Gummi_bear63

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Re: Pu/pd questions
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2016, 00:23:52 am »
I am planning to take him to the doctor to rule out discomfort but I really don't think he has any other symptoms of anything that would cause him discomfort and I doubt the doctor will be helpful. But I am going to see what he says.

Running on that assumption, I've tried the shush pat a few times and gotten frustrated and quit. I know nothing will work unless I stick with it but it seems pointless. He's sleepy in my arms but then when I put him down he's hitting himself and kicking like crazy. This is not conductive to sleep. I try picking him up and he's obviously tired because he burrows into me and tries to sleep. I try and try but keep getting the same result. I have never been able to get him to sleep in his crib with this method. He seems immediately wide awake and shows know signs up sleep. Once I tried it he started to cry and it began to feel like pick up put down once that happened. I tried putting him down just asleep knowing he would usually wake in seconds and did pat shush for 20 minutes. He woke after 7 minutes of me stopping. I just don't understand how to make this work.

I get him to sleep by rocking him, patting, and shushing. If he's really fussy we have to bounce on an exercise ball. He's always loved that. I tried to stop the rocking and he lets me for the first nap of the day(always the easiest) but I've not had luck eliminating it from other naps later in the day.

I am often getting a better first nap(1.5-2h in my arms) about 1h 45m after his first wake up(only with pat/shush/bounce support when he stirs-sometimes for whole nap) but when I try for another nap 1h45m-2h later I can't get him past 30 minutes. No amount of rocking or anything will seem to get him past this.

I've been trying the last few days to put him down for a nap but he immediately wakes no matter how long I wait, just like I have trouble with at night.

Feeling rather hopeless. Something needs to be fixed soon. I will post if doctors visit reveals anything but I doubt he will be helpful. He's sleeping in my bed with me now which is dangerous and something I never wanted to do but it's that or never sleep at all. And he wakes every hour so it's not great at that.

Any suggestions would be appreciated. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong with the shush pat.


Offline Gummi_bear63

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Re: Pu/pd questions
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2016, 00:47:12 am »
Oh and also relevant. His new favourite trick is rolling into his tummy and getting stuck. Something he especially likes to do in bed. Makes pat shush tough.

Offline jessmum46

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Re: Pu/pd questions
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2016, 19:04:16 pm »
Hun I don't think you are doing anything wrong :-* some babies really do just struggle to sleep.  See what your doctor says, often unsettled sleeping can be a symptom of silent reflux - there's a checklist here if you want to have a read through: Reflux 101 - General reflux information

If medical issues are ruled out, really it is a case of sticking with it and accepting there will be missed naps and over tiredness in the first day or two.  What we usually suggest is to try for max 45 mins, then take a break, and try again.  If you just put him in his crib and don't pat/shh does he get upset?  Or just lie there?

Offline Gummi_bear63

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Re: Pu/pd questions
« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2016, 17:56:06 pm »
If I don't do anything he usually lies there for awhile and then eventually fusses. If I ignore his fussiness he eventually cries. Now that he rolls though, I imagine he would roll over immediately and fuss for me to pick him up.

I've been trying since yesterday to pat and shush for naps and it's a disaster for me(I had to abandon at bedtime and night wake ups out of utter frustration). I have to put him down basically asleep but so he will stir and even then he stirs pretty much as soon as I stop. Once today I got him to sleep 15 minutes after I left. But then back to stirring as soon as I stop. I really don't think that is discomfort, as why would he be fine when I am patting him and then not fine when I stop? I'm finding this frustrating not to mention painful to hunch over his crib. Will this actually start to work?? 

Offline Gummi_bear63

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Re: Pu/pd questions
« Reply #25 on: September 23, 2016, 15:07:42 pm »
Any one have any ideas??  I'm on my third day of shush pat for naps and it is a disaster! 

My son only sleeps as long as I pat him so he is a disastrous mess by the end of the day and I end up having to resort to the old ways at bedtime which now takes twice as long as it already did and I'm more miserable than when I started.  I have to put him down asleep but so he will stir.  If he stirs too much, he is wide awake and flailing his arms around(often grabbing my hands), kicking his legs, and it's basically impossible to pat him.  I don't know how I am supposed to but him down awake.  He's just way to active, as mentioned above, and I don't know how this will ever lead to sleep.   I haven't done 45 minutes of this with him wide awake I will admit, as I get frustrated after about 10 minutes of him flailing, hitting me, and trying to roll.  It seems utterly impossible. 

This morning my baby has now only had a 9 minute nap so far.  My mother tried yesterday to give me a break but he just screams bloody murder when she tries and it's not me so I get no break.  I am really losing faith this will ever work.  Can anyone give me any ideas about what I should do differently?

Offline jessmum46

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Re: Pu/pd questions
« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2016, 12:00:15 pm »
Hugs hun, I know this is hard :-*  Really I would suggest taking a bit of a break for a day or two, it sounds you are getting quite frustrated with it which is meaning you are struggling to stay consistent, which is just counter-productive for both of you.  Why not do a day or two of snuggly naps to catch up, and then start afresh?  It's much easier to be consistent and not give up after 10 mins when you are a bit more rested, and consistency really is key.  It's not unusual for the first nap to be skipped, the next to take the full 45 mins, but most people find they see huge progress very quickly after that.  If you can resolve to see it through the first few times, hopefully you'll get the breakthrough you need :)

Remind us how old he is now, and what routine you are trying?  I think about 5 months?  It may be his sleep needs have moved on and as well as thinking about sleep training, the routine plan also needs to be tweaked a bit.  There are often some big jumps in A time around now so do tell us what you've been aiming for :)

I'm wondering if you need to be more hands off, actually, and do more of a PUPD as it seems the patting is winding him up.  Trying to pat him while he is just wiggling about isn't going to work yk?  This is copied from the PUPD FAQs:

To sum it up the basic procedure when you child cries is;

•   Place your hand on their back or chest and say your key phrase in a low tone, eg. ‘it’s only sleep’ or ‘it’s sleepy time’.  You always try in the crib first as this is the ultimate goal.
•   If this doesn’t work you pick them up, say the phrase and as soon as they calm you put them down.  If they start to cry on the way down, you still put them down. 
•   If they are still crying you pick them up again. 
•   If the child is truly fighting you, arching etc you don’t hold at all, you put them right down after you say the phrase and then pick them up again. 
•   You do this over and over until you see signs your baby is settling.  Typically their cries will become weaker; they may look for their hands etc.  They may also begin to mantra cry, you do not pick up on a mantra cry as they are attempting to settle themselves. 
•   When you see this settling behaviour you don’t pick them up anymore.  Leave them in the crib, place your hand on them and say your phrase. Now you let go, stand back and see what happens. 
•   If they start up again, you start the whole process over beginning with attempting to soothe in the crib.

4-6 MONTHS OLD -  The process changes slightly when your baby is starting to get more mobile and has more strength.  They will typically start to fight you when being held and they may throw their head back and/or arch their back, so the following adaptations are made;

•   If the baby is burrowing their head into the mattress, turning their head side to side, getting up on their knees or flopping side to side you don’t pick them up right away or you will get kicked or your hair pulled.  Instead you continue to talk and soothe in a low tone voice.
•   When you do pick your baby up you only hold for a maximum of two or three minutes then put them all the way down even if still crying. You then pick up again and follow the same routine. 
•   At 4-6 months a baby tends to put up quite a physical struggle and the biggest mistake made is holding too long.  Watch your baby’s cues, burrowing into your shoulder or arching their back is a sign they want to go back down EVEN if they are still crying.  Holding them too long will reinforce “I cry I get picked up”.   You can label what you are doing eg. “Let me pick you up”.  “Let me put you down”. 

So in essence you are hands off, 'letting' him go to sleep rather than 'putting' him to sleep.  Does that make sense?

Offline ireneasheard

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Re: Pu/pd questions
« Reply #27 on: September 26, 2016, 12:14:26 pm »
At 4 months old I was still patting my son to sleep. My understanding is that full pu/pd can be quite disturbing and over stimulating for a baby that young. As hr is now almost 6 months old I've transitioned to pu/pd as indicated in the pu/pd information relevant to age, he now doesn't respond to patting. I can tell you I've done pu/pd and have taken 30 minutes but he settles. My baby has been on a routine from very early on though but definitely leaps and development and teeth and starting solids all plays a role in how well baby sleeps in the first place. Don't give up... pu/pd I was doubtful would work but it does work! Persistence and fixing any routine issues if needed and making yoir observations is so important if you are looking for a way forward. Good luck.
DS 1: Textbook baby, February 2012. Kind and loving big brother to...
DS 2: Textbook (with a little touchy) baby, April 2016. My smallest and dearest bear.

Offline Gummi_bear63

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Re: Pu/pd questions
« Reply #28 on: September 27, 2016, 21:14:34 pm »
I did end up taking a break from nap training and have just been holding him again. I was going crazy!  And I came to the same conclusion that maybe the pat shush wasn't for us. I tried pu/pd for bedtime but found it didn't quite work for him so I altered it slightly so I was there to comfort him and not leave him to cry but didn't pick him up as I found this disturbed him trying to settle. Altered it to include cuddles where he was rather than picking up. First night was awful but I kept going because I didn't want him to have been upset for nothing. And it's paying off. First couple days needed my hand on his chest to be calm enough to sleep. Last night he cried a little but required much less comfort and turned on his side and sucked he a thumb to sleep!  And he woke several times but put himself back to sleep without any intervention because I trusted the process and gave him a little time as he was really only fussying and not crying. This is amazing as he was waking every 40 minutes or less a few days ago!  I'm so glad I did this. I hated to have him cry even if I was there to constantly comfort him but it's what he needed I think.

However I didn't tackle naps because I didn't want him crying too much in a day. Not sure if anything he learned will transfer over but hoping it will go easier. Hope I didn't screw anything up by not doing them together.

As for the likely regression around day 5, is it just he will have more trouble getting to sleep again or will he have trouble all night with waking a lot?  What is typical?

As for routine, he is 5 months just yesterday. We were trying for 1:45-2h activity. This works for first nap most days now being longer(but still in my arms!) but as we go through day with same times he often has 30 minute ones again. And I still sometimes shorten A slightly if he seems really desperate although I try and stick with it. I know his A times should maybe be increasing but I'm not always sure how to tell, especially since his naps are so screwed up already. Today I took him for first nap and he was down a couple minutes before 2h and slept in my arms for 1h 40m!  So this seemed like a good time. Did 2h10m midday (was out-delayed nap) and this was a 30 minute one. Now he's napping on me again for going on an hour(still sleeping) and that was couple minutes shy of 2 hours again. So I'm thinking this is still the right timing?  My only indication of his sleepiness some times is fussiness so I could be misinterpreting it...

Should I aim for 2h and do my version of pu/pd for naps?  If so, should I aim to have him in crib exactly at 2h or go a bit earlier knowing he won't get down right away?  If he doesn't take the first nap, how short should the A time be after that?   If I get him settling on his own and hopefully taking decent naps, then I will hopefully fall into a more consistent easy? Hopefully before his A time needs change so I have some indication by how he naps. They typically get up to 2.5 hours over the course of this month?




Offline ireneasheard

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Re: Pu/pd questions
« Reply #29 on: September 28, 2016, 15:04:38 pm »
You should do what works for you and your baby. You are doing a great job, keep reading your child's cues. If anything the baby whisperer is all about reading child and following their lead and the schedules and suggested awake times are guidance only. If your adjustment to pu/pd is working for you and you are settling babe in cot then go ahead and do it! The aim is to settle baby eventually in cot without lifting them out anyway - in fact aim is that they eventually learn to settle themselves - so if what you are doing is working and sleep is coming then I say keep doing it.
Re day sleeps - if you are getting the sleeps happening in arms then if possible work towards getting babe to sleep in bed as you have done overnight. 5 months old is a good time to work on one sleep if you can.
Re A time - again following your child is so important. My boy is almost 6 months old and low sleep needs so he was already transitioning 3-2 at end of 4 months. Incrementing A time is a good way day by day to work out how much sleep your babe needs, our A times jumped quickly so it was easier for me to read my baby's tired cues and note A times day to day to work out if he was OT or UT.
Hope this all helps. Xx
DS 1: Textbook baby, February 2012. Kind and loving big brother to...
DS 2: Textbook (with a little touchy) baby, April 2016. My smallest and dearest bear.