Lots and lots of NWs. 8.5mo. Help me pretty please!

[kjr928]

Hi there. This is my third kid and everything always goes downhill for me around 6/7 months. DD wakes up all night long.

Typical day looks like this:
7:30 wake & BF
8:30 solids
9:30 nap
11:30 BF
12 solids
2:30 nap
4 BF
5 solids
7:30 BF & bed

Night wakings are typically about every two hours all night:
10, 12, 2, 4, 6, and then morning (always 3-5 wake ups per night).

A couple of things:
- I do not BF to sleep for nap or bedtime, I put her down awake.
- sometimes I BF her at night, sometimes I cuddle her back to sleep. If I cuddle her back to sleep it usually results in her waking up again very quickly.
- when I BF her, she only feeds for less than 5 minutes. Most of the time I don't even feel a let down.
- I actually rocked and paced the room with her for almost 3 hours the other night. She SCREAMED the entire time. Finally around 4am I gave in and fed her. The next night she screamed for 2 hours until I fed her.
- I thought it was teething, then I thought it was reflux, now I think maybe she might be a snacker.

Does anyone have suggestions? I don't know how to get her to BF better during the day. I also have a 5 yo and a 2 yo and my house is VERY loud and chaotic. There is always fighting and screaming and crying. Thinking maybe that's part of my problem.

What do you guys think?

[kjr928]

Hi there, so far tonight she has woken at 10pm, 12 midnight, and now 2:15am. She did not feed for long at the 2am feed and almost as soon as she was done feeding and I was getting cozy back in bed, she started crying again. Luckily she soothed herself back to sleep. Just wanted to give you a clear picture what is going on here. ☹️

[kjr928]

Oh good, she just started up again at 2:45am. I'm so glad. I missed her sweet screaming face. ☹️

[kjr928]

Now at 3am when she cried, NOW I AM P*SSED.

So I went in there and SHUSHED her real loud, which startled her into silence... For about a minute. And as soon as she started crying again I snatched her out of her crib a little bit aggressively, and shushed her right in her face, and yelled at her to STOP CRYING. Held her for a couple of minutes, then put her back in her crib and sat next to her holding her hand for a few more minutes.

I left the room 5 minutes ago and she is already crying again. Maybe I should just get a pillow and a blanket and sleep on the floor in there.

I literally don't know what to do. Every day gets worse and worse.

[creations]

Hey there. I'm so sorry to hear how hard the nights are for you right now. You must be utterly exhausted, I'm not surprised if you are getting so little sleep.

I would think if she is waking this many times reflux or silent reflux really could be part of it.  Has she seen a doc about this?  I  know many doctors seem to say they out grow reflux at 6 months but mine only got his diagnosis around 5 months and certainly had not out grown it a month later.  Even at 5yo he goes back on reflux meds time to time (usually GS) because he gets a flare up. We medicate a few weeks and then try him off them again.  What I'm saying is, just because she's 8 months I wouldn't discount it as a possibility.

Whether reflux or not reflux, she is crying for a reason and whatever the reason is do try to remember it is not her fault.

Sweetie, I know it's hard,  you are horribly sleep deprived, and we all know here that we do not support CC or CIO so our go-to advice is always to respond to LO when they cry.  However, your LO's safety and well being is absolutely paramount.  Sometimes there is a need to hear the cry and not respond.
If you are at breaking point (and it sounds like you are) then you need to walk away.
You will not be the first and will not be the last who needs to walk away and take a break.  I know there were times I had to, I know other BWers have also needed to walk away and Tracy Hogg told us this too so she was also very aware that baby's well being comes first from a calm parent and second comes from responding to cries - if you are not in a position where you can use gentle hands and a kind voice with your baby you need to walk away and collect yourself.

May I suggest that you put a sign on her door to remind yourself.  Perhaps a "Stop. Are you calm?" and read it before you enter the room.  If you are not calm enough to enter do not enter.  If you are unable to enter you may be able to muster enough calm (or pretend calm) to say "I hear you, I'm coming soon" then walk away and count to 10, 100, 1000 if needed.
I've been there with the baby who just will not stop crying, and I know that for me there were times I could deal with that and just hold him or be with him and I could stay totally calm for long periods even though it was exhausting.  I also know there were times I could not.  When I was holding mine if I approached breaking point I tried my best to remember that how I respond to my child are vital, if I could manage two things then I did this:
1. put him in a safe place - if holding or rocking put back gently into the cot, if in another room return to his room put gently in the cot
2. say in a kind voice "I have to go, I'm coming back" - I felt like screaming "shut up!" but I think most people have one little jot of energy left they can muster to say those words calmly.
Then
3. walk away. Gather yourself. If counting helps, deep breathing, getting a drink of water. Whatever it is you need to do to take back control of your emotion, do it. Return to your baby when you can keep your frustration out of your voice and hands.
4. If you are not able to return to pick her up then try to return to speak through the door and repeat "I hear you, I'm here, I'm coming back" and walk away again.

Sleeping on her floor might be an option for a short period.  I think I would also make an appointment to take her to the doc and have her checked over.

lots of hugs honey

[Shiv52]

Awh hugs and love xx

So sorry you'd such a tough night. I second all creations said about middle of the night. Where is your DH in this? Can he help with the NWs to give you a break?

Practically looking at your routine your A times are two hours first and then between naps. That is very short for 8.5 months. 3-4 hours A time is much more average. I imagine what's happening is LO is needing those shorter A times as nights are so tough but lack of as time during the can lead to UT NWs as they try to make up for that A time. Id start upping that A time. Maybe look through some sample routine for her age?

You must be shattered with two other LOs too xx

[Palmira78]

Hello kjr928!
Just to let you know, that you are not alone. When I was reading you I was picturing my own nights. In average my nights lately are at least 4 NW (minimum 1, and maximum....6? or more). If you read the forum and some old entries, there is something around 8-10 months that generates most of the sleepless posts.
I can sympathize with your occasional anger since it has also happened to me, also to my DH... we are humans and we are calm 99% but there are times when we are fed up, and it is ok.
After checking with several pediatricians and my own experience with my eldest son, I am soon going to try to eliminate the breastfeeding in the night. I know my son will still wake up, but less often.  I am opening a new thread for that.
Just let us know how are you doing please. All my best wishes for you and your baby. I am there with you, with the big purple marks around my eyes... :-)

[kjr928]

I'm just rereading what I wrote last night and you all must think I'm a psycho or something! I know I sound crazy but I will not do anything to hurt my little sweetie. Sorry about the overnight play-by-play.

Anyway, I didn't get to go to sleep until after 4am. Then I had to be up at 7:30 and hit the ground running. I forgot to mention that she is actually on Zantac for reflux, but it hasn't really helped, so I'm not entirely convinced that she HAS reflux. We do have a doctors appt coming up in a couple of weeks but I'll prob take her in next week anyway.

The EASY sched is a little difficult for us because my DS has to be picked up from preschool at 11:30. So she either has to take her nap before that, or she has to wait until noon, which would be 4.5 hours awake. Then my DD has to be picked up from kindergarten at 2:15. So if she did take a noon nap it would have to be 2 hours, tops. And then it will be too late for her to have a second nap, and she will have to wait another 5 hours for bed time. Basically, I'm limited with the schedule and it sucks. 

I was really thinking that she was hungry at night because she feeds so poorly during the day. Is there anything I can do to improve that as a starting point?

Thank you all so much for your responses.

[creations]

None of us think you're a psycho honey - just wanting to be supportive and let you know many of us have felt similarly at some time xx

[Lindsay27]

Just wanted to jump in, my DD is 9 months, so similar in age.  I do agree that the A times are probably contributing to the NW, we find that we generally have 1 longer nap and 1 shorter nap in the day.  As you are working with a time conscription with preschool pick up, could you try for a shorter nap in the morning and long in the afternoon?

This is what we did today and it worked beautifully:

WU 7
Nap 10-11
Nap 2:30-4
BT 7:30

[Shiv52]

I agree. I'd do shorter nap in morning or give you that longer A time and then nap later on. You may need to move bedtime a half hour later to accommodate the A time and naps at this age.   

[kjr928]

Hi! Just wanted to check in and thank you again for your responses and support. I increased DDs Zantac and started giving her some baby Advil before bed to help with teething pain (top teeth coming in). Right away it seemed to help - she went back down to waking up about two times, which was a great improvement from about 5-6.

I have kept her on the Zantac and baby Advil but we have definitely back tracked. Last night for example, she went to bed around 8pm and between 8-11pm she woke up 5 times. After that she woke up about every 2 hours until 7am. Sometimes I nurse her back to sleep and sometime I just cuddle her.

I have noticed in the last few weeks that she basically will not nurse on me at all during the day anymore. She only wants to BF at night. It happened gradually, and kind of sneaked up on me. So obviously that's a contributing problem. Is there a gentle way of fixing this?

I am definitely going to make the nap adjustments you suggested. When she eventually goes down to one nap a day I'm going to have an even bigger problem, since my older DD gets picked up from kindergarten at 2:20pm. I guess I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.

Thanks!

[Lindsay27]

Just want to understand correctly when you say "will not nurse on me", do you mean that she isn't taking any BFs during the day and only at night? Or do you mean she prefers a bottle in the day? I'm reading it like she isn't nursing in the day time and if that is the case that will absolutely contribute to NW as she could be hungry.  Just want to clarify and get some BF support if needed . My DD is FF so our situation could be different, but we dropped to 3 daily bottles at 8 months, one at WU, 2/2:30, and BT.  This meant however that she was taking more at each bottle vs taking less more frequently.

[kjr928]

Hi there, yes, you read that correctly. She physically pushes herself away from me when I try to BF her during the day. Sometimes I can get her to nurse for 1-2 minutes but that's about  it. I have tried formula feeding during the day and can't get more than one ounce in her at a time.

I saw the pediatrician this past week and she was like "well, she's not dehydrated" and basically shrugged her shoulders. They are always really non-chalant about problems.

Not sure how to fix this without a terrible traumatic nighttime hissy fit. I have all kinds of problems. It's my way of doing things.

[Lindsay27]

Okay hun, going to get some BF eyes over here to see if we can figure out the BF refusal during the day.  Do you think with the Zantac increased that her reflux is controlled?  Given the BF refusal and frequent wakings it does make me wonder if the reflux is still very much an issue.  How frequently are you attempting to nurse during the day?  And is she taking solids?  Sorry for all the questions, just trying to feel out what might be going on

How have her naps been as of late?  Frequent NW early in the evening can be OT.  Do you want to track your routine for a day or 2, even if it is super rough it can help us help to see if any tweaks are needed.

[kjr928]

Hi there,
Honestly I'm not even 100% sure she has reflux - although when I increased her Zantac just as a precaution to 1.5ml twice a day she immediately slept a little better. Of course it could have been one of her front teeth breaking through. It seems there are so many things going on at once I can't tell what is causing what and what is helping/hurting what. Reflux, Zantac, teething, solids, BF refusal, NW, etc.

I will most definitely keep track of what's going on for a couple of days and post. I really hope I can get to the bottom of this. Thank you so much.

[Palmira78]

Hello! It sounds really tricky and I understand how tough this must be for you. I am referring to the breast feeding issue.
I also breastfeed so here goes my suggestion. Have you considered to nurse during the day in a totally dark room, in silence with a relaxed atmosphere? Sometimes the LOs are too distracted or excited to focus on nursing. I had occasionally that issue and even once I received a bite!!!
Can you reproduce the conditions when your LO nurses happily, but in the daytime? May be that could help.
When your LO wakes up from a nap, if he is awake but still a little bit drowsy could be a good moment to try and nurse him, perhaps...

[Scottishmummy]

Could the BF refusal be teething related? Mine pulled away from feeds when teething, especially with the top teeth.

Alternatively, how are you balancing daytime BF with solids? Could she be filling up on solids and therefore be too full for BF??

Also agree with pp suggestions to reduce distractions, if that seems to be an issue.

[kjr928]

Hi all, I tried to track my routine for the last few days to put here. It's easier said than done! I will also try your suggestion of reducing distractions when I try to bf. I'll basically try anything that's within my power! I am really not a happy camper these days and it makes it really hard to be a good mommy like this. 

Anyway, please have a look and let me know if anything is glaring. i put dotted lines down after I put DD to bed at night, to indicate where the NWs begin. Please note how much she is waking up at night and how short her BFs are (and how many are refused). 

12a BF
1a BF
1:15a hold
2:30 BF (pacifying - not really eating)
4:15 BF (pacifying)
5:30 BF (pacifying)
5:45 hold
6a bring into bed
-------------
7a BF (2-3 min)
9a breakfast (cereal & fruit)
10:15-12 nap
12:45p BF (2-3 min)
1:30p lunch (veg & chicken)
2:30-4p nap
4:15 BF (3-4min)
6p dinner (chicken)
7p BF refused
7:15 Zantac & Advil
7:30 BF (2 min)
7:45 bed
-----------------
9:20p plug w pacifier
10:30 BF
12:30 reject BF
12:40 BF
2:45 change leaked diaper & BF
6a BF
--------------
7:45 awake
8:30a BF
9a breakfast (cereal & fruit) Zantac
10-11:30a nap
11:45 BF (2 min)
12:30p lunch (veg & fruit)
3:15-4:45p nap
5:30p Zantac & dinner (veg & beef)
8pm bed
---------------
10p BF (10 min)
1a BF
3a (?) BF
6a bf
-------------
7a awake & bf (refused)
9a breakfast (cereal & fruit)
9:45-11:30 nap
11:45a bf (1-2 min)
12p lunch (fruit & veg - did not eat well)
2:15-4p nap
4:15 bf (refused)
5p dinner (chicken & veg - did not eat well) Zantac & Advil
6p bf (refused)
7p bf (refused)
7:15p bed
*NOTE: she basically fussed/cried from 4p-7p*
---------------
7:30p bf (4-5 min)
8:45p replug paci
9:45p bf (10 min)

[kjr928]

Ok - so she fussed and cried from about 4-7pm. Nothing would make her happy. Put her to bed a little bit early around 7:15. She went down easily, but then started waking up.

7:30p bf (4-5 min)
8:45p replug paci
9:45p bf (10 min)
11:30p bf (2 min)
1a bf (2min)
3:15 bf
3:45 hold
4am

So now it's 4am and she just started up again. I guess she's just going to cry now every 15 minutes or something?! I want to blow my brains out right about now.

I think she settled herself back to sleep without me going in, but I'm getting to the point tonight where I don't really feel like I can help her, and I'm going to have to let her cry. If that is the case I will sit with her in her room and comfort her as best I can.

I just cannot keep waking up every 1-2 hours like this. It's been going on way too long, and I really don't know how to help her at this point.

[kjr928]

Omg. Now it's 4:45 and here she goes again.  I feel like I should just get up for the day. That would be easier than waking up over and over like this. Actually, that's not entirely true since I haven't even fallen back to sleep yet from the last one. 

[kjr928]

It's almost morning now. I've basically been awak since 3am. The baby doesn't stop crying. I gave up on BFing her for the night. If she cries I just pick her up and hold her. She settles down, I put her in her crib and then I'm lucky if she goes 5 minutes without crying again.

[Lindsay27]

Oh hun I'm so sorry you've had such a rough night! Do you have anyone who can help take care of your LOs today while you catch a nap?  I know how hard it is to be that tired, hang in there . Does she take a paci at all? Or have some kind of comfort item that can help settle her in the night?  Also, does is seem like she's in any pain or discomfort? Last question (lol), when she wakes is she crying or just fussing?  I know with both mine I had a habit of running in too quickly without allowing them time to settle on their own.

Thanks for posting your day(s), it is very helpful and a few things jump out.  She is taking good naps which is great, but I actually wonder if she's getting too much day sleep and not enough A time.  I believe our DDs are close in age?  We generally have a max of 2.5hrs day sleep so I am wondering if possibly one of the naps needs to be capped?  I generally don't let her nap later than 4pm, otherwise it affects nights.  The other thing is, and I know you have school run to work around, however some of the A times (the 2nd one I think) seem to be on the short side, sometimes 2.5hrs after a good nap, followed by another good nap, so that would likely create some UT which can cause NW.  Do you think you can stretch her longer to more like 3-3.5hrs and still work withing school times?

[creations]

Oh I'm so sorry top read about your awful night!

You've had great routine advice from Lindsay who has a LO much closer in age so really I'm just stopping by to pass on a hug and the hope that you can get someone to stand in for you at some point in the day so you can have some sort of rest/recovery.
hugs

[kjr928]

Hi there,thanks for your response. I haven't been around because (surprise!) I got sick. Laryngitis, bronchitis, and terrible cough, congestion and sinus pain. Now I'm on antibiotics. I guess it was inevitable, the way I've been living lately.

Anyway, to answer your questions: yes, she does take a paci. Sometimes I can just plug her and she'll settle down again, sometimes not. No other comfort item really. I think she may have had discomfort with her top teeth coming in. They have broken through now, and she is sleeping a little bit better at night. And for your last question, when she wakes up she is CRYING. If she's just fussing, she can resettle herself or I can replug her. When she's crying, she either needs BF or to be cuddled.

I am going to take another look at my naps. I think I am generally going over 2.5 hrs. So I will try to modify it and keep it at 2.5 max during the day.

Each day that passes by I am believing more and more that her BFing issue is also contributing to the problem. She physically pushes away from me during the day. I think a lot of it is because of my other 2 kids, who are constantly interfering, screaming, and fighting with each other. And they follow me all over the house so I can't seem to get away from them to bf either. They just barge right in. Additionally, it's hard to leave them alone together because they fight so much anyway. So I think DD needs to "catch up" at night. ☹️️ I don't know what to do about this.

On a positive note, we're doing a little "better". And by "better" I mean that she is waking up EVERY TWO HOURS all night long instead of like every 45 minutes or whatever. I just really hate my life lately. 😢

[Lindsay27]

Hugs hun!! I am sick myself so I know how drained you get when caring for LOs and being up all night, you must be shattered!  How old are your other LOs? Can you set them up with an activity/show/iPad while you feed?  I have to take my DD to a dark room, blinds closed or she gets too distracted and DS usually plays on the iPad during that time.  What about adding BM to solids to get more calories into her that way?  Sorry if you already answered this but how frequently are you attempting to feed in the day?

I imagine if she is napping over 2.5hrs in the day she is likely playing catch up from rough nights, so if you feel she really needs it then don't cap, last thing you want is a miserable OT baby. 

[kjr928]

Hi there,
Something wonderful happened a couple of days ago - after bed at 7:30, she woke up at 9:30 & 11:30, and I thought "oh great, here we go again". But then she slept until 4am, and then didn't wake up again until morning. So the next day I just felt like a million bucks (except for the laryngitis & cough). The next night she woke up twice after midnight.

I've been paying close attention to her naps to try and keep it at 2.5 hrs max, and I'm *trying* to bf her better. Ordinarily I try to bf her when she wakes in the morning, after nap, and before bed. I think she does bf better if I keep her in her quiet room without all the distractions. I don't know how easily I can maintain that going forward though. I also quit my two glasses of wine with dinner for the last couple of days to see if that helps. Of course, now if she really does get better I won't know if it's the naps or the bf or the wine!

Anyways, it's 11:30pm now. I can hear her starting up. I'll see what happens and then I'm off to bed. Goodnight and thanks for your help!

[Lindsay27]

How's it going hun? I just wanted to share this link which has some good information re: BF and alcohol consumption.  You are right it is hard to tell what is contributing to the better nights, but it sounds like she is BF better during the day which is definitely going to help!  It may be possible the wine with dinner was changing the taste of your milk so perhaps she wasn't taking a good BT feed?  Anyway, some helpful info to read through

https://www.laleche.org.uk/alcohol-and-breastfeeding/

[kjr928]

Hi there,

Things are kind of "stable" right now at about 2 wake ups per night. Once in a while it's 3, but mostly just 2. I haven't really been drinking (even though lord knows I need to! Ha ha). So I don't know if that helped or her teeth coming through or a better sched or what.

I'm trying to keep it to a max of 2.5 hours nap during the day.
My EASY looks something like this now:
7:30 wake & bf
9 breakfast
10-11 nap
12 bf
12:30 lunch
3 - 4:30nap
4:30 bf
5:30 dinner
8:30 bed

Then she usually starts fussing around 11 or midnight, but mostly settles herself back down. Sometimes I need to go in. Then I end up going in there usually twice in the middle of the night.

It's difficult navigating naps because of all the school schedules. BFing is still difficult but she's doing a little better today. Not much.

Thanks for the link about alcohol. I will check it out. Let me know if you see anything that I can improve to make these NW go away! Thank you!!!