Author Topic: Eliminate the night feedings cold shoulder - 9 months - Your experiences (Read 3333 times)

Palmira78 · « **on:** September 09, 2016, 13:27:24 pm »

There are a number of factors that prevent my spirited 9 months old baby to sleep through the night... and I know that over the time everything will improve, however one of those factors is the night breast feedings. For that reason, I have decided to eliminate them totally. I have checked with 2 pediatricians and both have confirmed that biologically my son does not need them.
After trying unsuccessfully reducing the minutes of each feed, I have decided to do it cold shoulder. This was the way I did it with my eldest son when he was 18 months and it worked after 4 nights with lots of hugs and desperate crying involved. I did not and I will not leave my baby crying alone, but I will soothe him without nursing no matter how many hours it takes. I am confident that at the end he will be able to go back to sleep without nursing (like he does during his day naps).

Before I go ahead, I would like to learn about your experiences in order to benchmark some best practices. What did you do to soothe your LO's instead of nursing? How did you share the load with your DH? How many nights were needed for your baby to accept that no milk would be coming?

Your experiences and suggestions are very welcomed :-)

FPT23 · « **Reply #1 on:** September 09, 2016, 20:09:13 pm »

Hi

Quite honestly, babies go through many growth spurts. I would always offer to nurse if settling isn't working out. If it seemed like it wasn't a hunger issue I attempted in other ways to soothe. However, I found that the NWs were not affiliated with hunger but other issues such as his daily routine. Once I was able to tweak and work it out, NWs stopped. We still have occasional NWs but I do not nurse and he normally resettles by holding him to relax him, rubbing his back, and once he's calm I put down and he's good to go. He is a great self soother and adapted well, early on. That is my personal experience

every baby is different.

Although, I would like to go ahead and offer the link we have here on the forum on Pantleys Gentle Removal Plan. It takes time and lots of patience but I find it is the most gentlest and with less tears involved

Gentle Removal Plan

It's a good reference, I find

Another method that would best work in your situation if the above reference wasn't to your preference or it didn't quite fit, is Pick Up/Put Down... It will also take some time and patience and very tiring at first, but it can work so long as you stay consistent. I personally don't have experience for PU/PD nor did I prefer the method. I like less tears and screaming haha

but none the less, I am providing the link if you would like to read over it

Pick Up/Put Down (PU/PD) - Everything you ever needed to know!

Now, a few things to remember about NWs. For a breast fed baby, keep in mind those growth spurts. As I mentioned, I always offer to nurse IF he is unsettling any other way and that usually means he's hungry. It's not his normal to keep on. That's my baby, of course. But still, make sure he's getting enough milk in his day

...to avoid him making up for it at nights. Another thing, teething! It is ok to offer some relief before BT to help him through his night IF that's the case as well. Something else to consider

In addition, you want to ask yourself, has he ever slept independently? Can he self settle? Are you in anyway a prop to help him sleep? For instance, rocking, nursing to sleep, holding... All those are prop and prevent a baby to learn how to self soothe and depend on mom for that. If not, sleep training is something to try and I would prb start with naps, with one of above methods OR...

Most importantly, take a look into his daytime routine. How does his routine look like? How much activity time is he getting? Naps? How long? How many? Etc.

There are a lot of things that contribute to NWs. You can possibly even avoid the pain of staying up all night trying to fix something that doesn't require such a hard time, kwim? I think it's worth trying to take at his daily routine and see if anything needs some tweaking. I tell you, its important to look at

!! It has saved my NWs so much more the second time around!

Hope all this helps!!! This is just my very humble opinion and suggestions

let me know how you feel about it! Maybe you can jot his easy routine for a few days and post? Or if it's pretty conistent, you can post your regular now. It would be nice for others to have a look and maybe spot something that can help!

Xo

Palmira78 · « **Reply #2 on:** September 11, 2016, 08:19:11 am »

Thanks a lot for the good suggestions and your detailed post. I read the Pantley book and all the links to PU/PD. The thing is that I want to stop breast feeding during the night. If it is okay I prefer to place in a different post my baby's easy routines and other issues.
I would like to learn from some other moms that decided to stop nursing during the night.
Is it just me the only one not happy to be nursing during the night?

creations · « **Reply #3 on:** September 11, 2016, 08:38:05 am »

Hi there - you might get more responses from other BF mums if you post on the BF board. Just a thought.

Palmira78 · « **Reply #4 on:** September 11, 2016, 19:44:50 pm »

Thanks a lot! You are right. I will try with the BF board... I was hoping to get feedback about the impact on the NW, but I understand that it will be more appropriate there.

FPT23 · « **Reply #5 on:** September 12, 2016, 00:05:46 am »

Yes it is a good idea but I made sure to list as much information for you with regards to NWs

Did you find any of this information useful? If not, or your looking for more, as Creations said- you might prefer the BF board!

If you do not wish to BF at night, have you tried Bottle feeding with expressed milk? Stopping breastfeeding at night is first ensuring that your baby doesn't need night feeds anymore. If you have become simply a prop (nursing) then a method of ST is best. Which is why I suggested those options.

And again, sometimes baby will sleep all the way through once some things are tweaked in babies daytime routine. I am a breast feeding mom myself and once I got a better hold of my sons daytime routine, and I know for sure he's an independent sleeper (something I asked you as well in the previous post) ...NWs reduced.

Xo

Palmira78 · « **Reply #6 on:** September 12, 2016, 19:57:36 pm »

Thanks a lot for the good advice. I am taking on your comments and please accept my apologies if I did not give too much of a response regarding your post.
The thing is that where I live, 2 different pediatricians have told me that night feeding could be the problem for the NW (and this was the case for DS1 when he was 18 months). I have been told off for still feed during the night my 9 months old... So I was a little anxious to do "things right".
In any case I do not want to make any massive changes until I see my baby a little bit more settled.
We recently returned to work and to the kindergarten after one whole month so my DS2 must adapt to the routine. He is teething as well, biting everything, his gums very red...
My DS2 spends from 8:00 Am to 15:30 pm in the kindergarten so I have limited chances to adapt his sleeping times and routines. In any case his EASY is as follows (and I keep it consistent during the weekend):
7:00 BF
7:30 WU
9:30-10:15 Nap
11:30 lunch - solids
1:00-3:00 Nap
3:30 BF
4:00 fruits
6:00 BF +solids
7:45 BF
8:00 BT
He is more or less an independent sleeper for the naps. We place him in the cot with the pacifier on and he fells asleep (we stay in the room near by).
During the night I try to resettle him before nursing. In the past I was more successful with the pacifier or water. Now he seems breast addicted.
My DS2 is nervous so it seems that only my presence makes him calm. When my DH goes he gets mad, so I carry the load of his NW.
I definitely think that it will be easier to wean my DS2 from 1 night feeding than from 3 or 4 (as it is nowadays). So your advice will be very welcomed.

*Ali* · « **Reply #7 on:** September 13, 2016, 10:16:22 am »

Can he replug the paci himself?

Have you considered giving milk (expressed or formula) during the day when he's at nursery? I see he's currently going 7am til 3.30pm without any BFs. He might be struggling to make up the calories in the day with the last 3 feeds crammed into 4hr15 before bed.

I'd just ignore anyone telling you off about "still" feeding at night. The World Health Organisations recommends feeding as often as baby wants, day and night until 2yo. They wouldn't suggest that if it were harmful.

Palmira78 · « **Reply #8 on:** September 13, 2016, 11:53:48 am »

Good idea regarding to feed him some milk in addition to the solids during the time in the kindergarten. Today I will check with the teacher about it and the most convenient time for them to do so. Thanks for that. You might be right, that he is not receiving enough calories during the morning. This is open minding for me.

Regarding the pacifier, my son is able to re-plug the pacifier himself. In fact I have seen him during the night to take it and continue sleeping. This happened during vacation in the hotel room when we all slept in the same room. Sometimes he also falls asleep without it, when we go for a walk, for example. Once he is fully asleep he normally spits it out, so I am not very concerned about it. Although I wish I can eliminate the pacifier once our nights get better.

The thing is that most of the times, when he cries, he has the paci in his own hand, so he wants me to help him calm down. Occasionally just by talking to him and holding his hands still he goes back to sleep (I wish that was always the case). However most of the times, I have to nurse him. My baby is quite big in size and weight so perhaps your comment regarding additional food during the day may be spot on.... I will try and let you know :-)

FPT23 · « **Reply #9 on:** September 13, 2016, 15:31:44 pm »

Great advice from Ali

as usual! Hopefully adding extra calories in his day may help those NWs!

No need to apologize- we are all just regular moms trying to figure things out here too

Hopefully some of the advice given can help you sort some things out

Ok so, I want to ask, how many NWs does he normally have?

How is he in the evening hours? Does be seem fussy, or tired? What time does he wake normally in the mornings?

The reason I ask is because of the long leap from 3pm to his BT at 8pm. Something to consider. How many hours of rest is he getting in his day?

Also, maybe the new changes with school have a lot to do with him needing more of you. Babies go through some delegation anxiety around that time too.

Sorry I'm a bit late but hopefully we can help those NWs!

Palmira78 · « **Reply #10 on:** September 14, 2016, 08:39:57 am »

Thanks for your support FPT23!
For the last 2 weeks he is normally waking in average 4 times per night. For example, today: He went to sleep at 20:00, and woke up at 12:00, 2.30, 5:00, 6:45 (this one I already consider his breakfast). Yesterday he woke up at: 23:30, 0:45, 1:45, 2:45, 5:30, 6:45. The day before: 23:45, 0:45, 2:45, 5:00, 6:50 (this one is his breakfast). I have a Fitbit (activity tracker) so he tells me the timing. Sometimes I even forget the number of times.
By the way after his breakfast around 7:00 he goes back to sleep again until 7:30 (this gives me time to get ready for work). Should I make him stay awake from 7:00 onwards? During the weekends I really love those extra minutes....

I agree with you that from 3 to 8, it is way too long without sleeping. The problem is that in the kindergarten they have the official "nap" time from 1 to 3, when they keep low lights and no noises and encourage all children to sleep. Yesterday, for instance my son only napped from 13:00-14:00 therefore I allowed him a 30 minute cat nap at 18:00, since otherwise it was impossible for him to stay awake until 20:00. I do not see how can I change his naps timing when I am not with him. I wonder why this was not a problem with his older brother at his age... Perhaps when he goes for just 1 nap per day everything will be fine?

During the evenings he is normally happy and very excited looking at his older brother play. Around 19:15 he starts getting cranky so I give him a bath and start with the BT routine. I have to say that most times I place him awake in his bed, but I have to re-settle a few times 20 minutes later.

Regarding hours of sleep per day, he sleeps: 2 hours 30 minutes, split in 2 naps and the occasional cat nap.
During the night 11hours and 30 minutes

Your ideas and suggestions will be very welcomed :-)

*Ali* · « **Reply #11 on:** September 14, 2016, 11:53:09 am »

What about resettling him without a feed if it has been less than a certain number of hours since the last feed. I definitely wouldn't be feeding again an hour later. I used to have most luck resettling earlier in the night when she was presumably more tired. I think although he may need some BFs at night still 4 is quite excessive.

Palmira78 · « **Reply #12 on:** September 15, 2016, 08:37:24 am »

I agree with you Ali, that I should try to avoid resettling without a feed if it has been less than for example 2 hours since the previous one. The thing is that during the night I go mindless and I not always realize what time is it; in fact, I only aim to return as quickly as possible to bed, nevertheless I have taken your comment on and last night I did look at the time.
By the other hand, my DS is not aware of the timing so from his point of view it could be seen as erratic behavior from my side if sometimes I feed him and other times y just stroke him.... this was one of the reasons I started thinking about stopping the feeds cold turkey.

By the way, last night my DS only woke up twice: at 11:30 and at 2:30 so I feel happy and rested :-)

*Ali* · « **Reply #13 on:** September 15, 2016, 19:10:05 pm »

No he won't know the time but he will know if he is hungry or not.

FPT23 · « **Reply #14 on:** September 17, 2016, 16:27:57 pm »

Hello

How have the last couple of days been? Happy to hear about the 2 wakes only! Very happy to hear you got some much needed rest.

I do remember your last post when we discussed all the changes that were happening and the trip as well. Now he has started going to that kindergarten, so it's possible he just needs quite sometime to catch up and adjust. There isn't much you can do if that is the routine they have him in at school but have you tried an earlier bedtime?

Did you also try teething meds just in case?

I agree with Ali. 4 is excessive for this age-- but I would try to resettle as well the best you can before offering a feed, as Ali suggested

By any chance, the night he only woke twice, did you jot down his routine? Or do you remember it? ...that way we can see what was done that day (feedings/routine/A times) to have allowed him to wake less, kwim?

Xo

Palmira78 · « **Reply #15 on:** September 19, 2016, 12:49:50 pm »

Hello! That night with only the 2 NW was just a one off... Since then, my LO is waking 4/6 times per night. I am exhausted and my health is suffering from it. Yesterday I started with conjunctivitis and today mastitis. My body is trying to tell me something, I do need a rest but I do not know how.
My LOs has had a cold for the last days and also his front teeth are about to break. I did medicate with a painkiller for babies in order to get him some relief but it really has not made any difference from my perspective. At bed time he falls asleep easily, but his issue is that he wakes so often (and I do not know why). The longest sleep stretch non stop is 3 hours (normally at the beginning), and then he is waking every 2 hours maximum :-(

He has recently started crawling so perhaps this NWs are something developmental... The thing is that he seems a happy baby during the day, not cranky at all.

I always try to re-settle without feeding him (I try for 20 minutes) and occasionally I manage to do so but very often it is just not possible. Once he starts eating when I see that he eats more slowly, I put him back in bed (the BF takes around 7 or 10 minutes, only 1 breast). I do not wait for him to be fully sleep. The thing is that if he is really hungry he still may be hungry shorter afterwards, but by the other hand I do not want him to eat a lot. When we were on vacation that he only woke up once per night, I did feed him for a long time both breasts... Do you think that I should try to nurse him longer? Or to stop nursing?

Regarding day that he slept better, the only "change" in his routine was that he ate very well in the kindergarten and slept a 2 hours non-stop nap (better than usual). At home the routine is identical everyday (and identical to back to 6 months when he woke just 2 per night). I am very methodical, but I am desperate now since nothing is working (and I am not feeling well). I am pasting anyway his EASY from that day when he "only" woke up twice, where the only change I see was the quantity in lunch + the extra bottle in the morning + the better naps.
6:50 WU and BF
9:00 FF in the kindergarten (following your advice to get him more food during the day)
9:15-10:00 Nap (they follow the baby's cues)
11:30 Lunch - ate well
12:45-14:30 Nap
15:30 BF at home
16:00 -16:30 Nap
18:00 Solids and BF
19:45 BF
20:00 BT

Your comments are very welcomed :-)

*Ali* · « **Reply #16 on:** September 20, 2016, 18:51:28 pm »

What's his normal routine, nap wise? I'd have expected him to have dropped the cat nap by now. That's normally done around 5-7mo. He could be undertired if he normally gets so much sleep.

Can you remind us how he is falling asleep for naps? It sounds like a prop issue at night which could possibly be helped by getting him to go down completely independently in the day.

FPT23 · « **Reply #17 on:** September 21, 2016, 02:47:23 am »

I'm so sorry!! Sounds super difficult! Many hugs your way and well wishes. Tough times but soon this will pass! Very sorry to hear about it all

xoxoxoxoxoxo!!

I do agree with Ali!

By this time baby should be down to something like 2 naps... maybe too much day sleep can be causing UT! Have you considered to PD earlier? I know it sounds scary but it tends to work more often than not

You also mentioned Mastitis....what's going on with nursing? Maybe he's not getting enough milk or it tastes differently having this? Or what's the reason---? I assume baby can latch well by now? That can be a good reason for so much NWing. Maybe he is in fact hungry for one reason or another?

Xo

Palmira78 · « **Reply #18 on:** September 21, 2016, 07:59:15 am »

Thanks a lot for your comments! They are very much appreciated.

In response to Ali: The 2 main naps take place in the kindergarten and I have no control over them whatsoever. More or less they are as follows:
At 9.00-9:45, and from 13:00-14:30. The key issue is that from 14:00 or 14:30 to 20:00 sometimes is way too long without a cat nap. I know that the first nap is too early and the second too close afterwards, but as I said this is something I have no control at all. They put the baby to sleep following his cues, but also they encourage sleeping from 13:00 to 15:00 with low lights since that is the "official" nap quiet time for everyone in the kindergarten. For the naps I place / they place my LO with the pacifier on and he happily falls asleep. You do not need to do him anything. Sometimes he likes (at home) that I stay near by.

In response to FPT23: I have change nothing with nursing so it was a surprise that a mastitis happened to me, with my second son and after 9 months of nursing without any issues..... I really think that this is more related to my exhaustion than anything else. Thankfully I am feeling much better now, thanks to the antibiotics and to the last 2 nights that have been much better. By the way, many thanks for the well wishes!

Today I am actually quite hopeful since last night I managed to resettle my LO without nursing and I had less NW. The first NW was at 12:00, the second was caused by his brother that woke him up (he had to get up to pee and called us) at 2:00 but I managed to re-settle my DS2 after 30 minutes shh, stroking him and holding his hands still, and third one at 5:00. Last night and the previous night I have "only" nursed him twice, every 4 hours, which is for my situation a great success taking into account the previous days.

I must say that for the previous days my LO had a cold so his own cough also was (?)responsible for some of the NWs.
Anyway, my plan now is to make sure I limit the amount of nursing so I get graduall7y to eliminate the NFs. I think the easiest will be one at a time... but not sure yet. What are your thoughts?

FPT23 · « **Reply #19 on:** September 22, 2016, 03:48:55 am »

Glad your getting better nights and I hope you do get 100% well soon

I think 1 NF is still ok so keep that in mind. pretty normal I feel!

One NW at a time sounds well but do keep in mind that daytime routine and the OT part. Sometimes simply tweaking the routine removes the NWs and end up doing less at the NWs.

Happy to hear about the resettling! Your well on your way

Palmira78 · « **Reply #20 on:** September 22, 2016, 10:46:26 am »

Hey there! Our improvement was very short lived...
Tonight it has been terrible. My LO from 12:00 onwards, almost woke up every hour. I did try to re-settle without nursing several times. I also tried giving him some ibuprofen since I saw that he was biting his hand... In the end I gave in and I did nurse most of the times to aim for some sleep. Then when we woke up and got ready for the day, my LO was happy smiley, playful, no signals of the night discomfort...

As I mentioned in my previous posts I have little space for action regarding his naps since he spends 7 hours in the kindergarten. However today I have asked them to try to delay his "main nap" in order to ensure that it finishes later (from 13:00 to 15:00) and then I will only get a 5 hours of activity time until BT. By the way I am doing lately 7:30 BT when I see him OT and I avoid the catnap. Also another change that I have introduced is to give him some cereals and oatmeal before bedtime, to see if he improves...
His current EASY is as follows:
E 7:00 BF
E 8:30 FF
S 9:15-10:15
E 11:30 Lunch with solids
S 12:45-14:15
E 15:30 BF & solids
E 18:00 BF
E 19:30 Solids & BF
S 20:00
Any suggestions?

Lindsay27 · « **Reply #21 on:** September 24, 2016, 12:36:05 pm »

I think moving that main nap is essential, it will shift her day back and even out the A times so there isn't such a big stretch to BT which is likely contributing to some OT (and likely NW from OT).

FPT23 · « **Reply #22 on:** September 25, 2016, 16:42:47 pm »

Hi! Yes I think the suggestion to the kinder was great and hopefully it works out better! It should! I would bring BT earlier also and he may surprise you

I would even try 7pm... or asleep by 7pm

Yk, having solids too close to BT can be a trial and error deal too. Personally I never do solids right before BT... just because I wonder if it wouldn't settle well and disturb instead at night with tummy troubles or running the chance of a poo diaper too. Let me know how it works though! It might just help!

Palmira78 · « **Reply #23 on:** September 25, 2016, 20:15:23 pm »

Thanks a lot for your comments. I do believe that delaying the main nap helps at least to have the baby happier during the evening. I am going to try even 7 pm for Bt as you suggested.
In any case I must say that during the weekends I have changed the timing for the naps, however I have not noticed too much difference regarding the NW.
By the way, an update regarding the latest nights: Ds2 is teething, his upper teeth have come up so that explains part of the discomfort.
Another update: since Friday my DH slept in the same room in order to soothe him during the NW and to let me sleep. As you can imagine I did not breastfed him during the night and we did not feed him at all. It was amazing. I was able to SLEEP. And the baby returned to sleep without any big drama after my DS stroking his hands or taking him into his arms. We were expecting screening and crying, but it did not happen. It just took him a little bit longer to get back to sleep. DH demonstrated that DS2 is able to not eat during the night. We still have to get up, but this is something that we can share. I will explain more in detail in a different post. We understand that the NW will not go anytime soon but at least I am a better person now that I have slept decently for a couple of nights.
Let's se how it goes tonight!

FPT23 · « **Reply #24 on:** September 26, 2016, 01:33:23 am »

So happy about the rest you got! Makes a world of difference!

You know it is common with BF babies that dad is better at soothing or help during STing. Babies smell mom and moms milk so all they want is that comfort! Perhaps if hubby is still on board give this a try for a good week and see if it helps any?

Best of luck hope things get better with the small changes!

Palmira78 · « **Reply #25 on:** September 26, 2016, 07:37:39 am »

We decided that the first 2 nights (during the weekend) without food were for my husband, in order to get the LO used to it.
Last night, it was my turn, and I did get up for my DS2 NW. I managed to soothe him without breastfeeding. I feel super happy about it. He woke up at 12, 2.30 and 6.00, not more often than when I used to nurse him. And the good thing is that tonight will be again my husband's turn! :-) Sleep night for me :-)

Now our mission should be to improve as much as possible my DS2 routines so the NWs reduce. I agree with you that lots of solids right before BT are not ideal, so I am trying to give them around 1.5 h before, then right before bed I only breastfeed him. By the way, you mentioned about the poo diaper... Since my DS2 was born we never change diapers during the night, and he is ok with that (unless the poo gets out of the diaper). We put plenty of cream to protect the skin, before we put him to bed. That was a lesson learnt from my DS1. With a spirited baby changing diapers during the night totally awakes them, at least this was our experience.

Today, if my DS2 seems very tired earlier I will put him to sleep earlier. Lets see how it goes... Thanks a lot for all your good advice :-)

FPT23 · « **Reply #26 on:** September 26, 2016, 15:08:58 pm »

Well I'm glad you are getting much more rest and YAY for DH help

more sleeeeeep for you! I'm happy you are resettling without BF and he's ok! So now we know, he doesn't need that many NFs

...Thad always good. So now you can focus on some sleep training and helping him gently to not need to wake as much anymore. The day is closer than you think! Many positive vibes and I hope the day routine makes a difference soon too! It normally does

your doing wonderfully!

No I agree about the changing diapers at night! We don't either unless he poos too. What I mean is it can cause a blowout haha and then you may need to hehehe

! But 1.5 before BT is a great plan in that case

Let us know how it went for you!

News:

Author Topic: Eliminate the night feedings cold shoulder - 9 months - Your experiences (Read 3333 times)